Mass Effect 3

[Seangoli]

Saw EA published it. Did not buy.

Except that hasn't been an issue to date.
Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and Dragon Age: Origins were all great.

In fact, most of Mass Effect 3 is great as well. The only problem is the last 15 minutes.

I would go so far to say that everything past Legion's last scene was awful and of poor design. That was the last great and memorable scene of the entire game, and the last time that the game play approached anything unique and interesting. Some people dislike the reaper scene right before this for plot reasons, but frankly it was an interesting turn of events at the very least made a compelling, frantic, and awesome playthrough. I can ignore the concept that the reaper was being an idiot for the simple purpose of it being a fun scene.

But after Legion's last scene (No spoilers, dammit!), the game takes a massive downturn both in quality of storyline and variety of gameplay. It becomes nothing more than a slog fest after slog fest with almost nothing interesting happening in the storyline. The cutscenes were all unpolished, with the characters acting like a block of wood. The emotional tension that had been created up to this point was almost completely lost by rather laughable and unbelievable dialogue, and little to no reason for continuing after this point.

So really, there is a lot more wrong with the game than the "last 15 minutes". I would say the last 4-5 hours were absolutely abysmal and lazily done.

[Seangoli]

On the contrary, they "answered" too much. In ME1, the Reapers were utterly alien and extremely powerful, repeating the cycle of extinction every 50,000 years to impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. It wasn't war, it was pest control. ME2 hinted that new Reapers were made by harvesting sapient species, but this ultimately raised even more questions without revealing too much.

Leaving the Reapers' true purpose mysterious would've been better than coming up with this half-assed child-god with the justification of "synthetics always rebel, ignoring how you literally just made peace between warring synthetics and organics a couple of hours ago."

Well, the quote I got there (from the Final Hours app) was part of a larger quote in which Walters said you were supposed to be able to have an actual conversation with the Catalyst and get answers on why he exists and about the Reapers. But then Casey Hudson and him talked and apparently they agreed that it was too "high level" or something to let the fans get to have when they reached that part.

Hell, Mac Walters scribbed down "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" and apparently Bioware sought to rely on that, at the price of neglecting the promises they made pre-release.

So you're telling me that they turned into Hipster Indie Game Developers. What a load of trash.

[Seangoli]

Based on the posts of some people on the BSN, the critics are apparently bought out by EA to gloss over any problems, especially IGN which opened a shitstorm with disgruntled fans when IGN's Colin Moriarty made a video about them, essentially looking at them as whiny and entitled.

Doubtful. The first few hours playing the game, that's what their reviews are based on. And those first few hours WERE good. They're not going to base their reviews on the ending because that's just stupid. They're going to base it mostly on the gameplay. Hence why although Battlefield 3 has a shitty, puke-inducing plot, it has a high score because it's just fun to play.

Which is true, the first few hours are quite good. But frankly, even the gameplay takes a marked turn for the worse later on. Quite frankly, the game is just not that fun after about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through. Not to mention that the only gameplay upgrades they have are pretty much purely cosmetic in nature. Oh! They added the ability to jump! In the form of a button prompt in specific situation on a linear path that doesn't add anything at all to the actual gameplay. So really, it's just like walking down a linear corridor but with an extra animation.

Or the cover based combat being shoddy as shit and almost impossible to actually be mobile while using it, and rather than taking cover behind something, suddenly you are taking cover in front of it! Awesome!

Other than that, practically nothing changed in terms of combat between ME2 and ME3. The game play is far from great. It's solid most of the time, and terrible the remainder.

[Oterro]

Weird. I worked out all his conversation options before London and

he exploded and died in my game...

Did you lead him on? I think you have to get him to fancy Shepard for him to survive.

Never buggered him but.

From what ive heard Bioware didnt give people there Happily ever after and folks are pissed. There will Be DLC's for all you whining about how they ended THEIR game.

A bloo bloo bloo people are rightly complaining about a franchise they're invested ending terribly and I have no idea why I'm going to act self righteous and silly.

Literally no one's going ''the ending was bad because it wasn't happy!!!''

Mass Effect isn't a happy franchise :v

I could handle the marauder no problem, but I pistol almost exclusively, so I reflexively get headshots whenever possible. The slowed time makes it pretty simple to blast him.

I don't even use the pistol and I took him down pretty easily. But...

Just a quick note on point 2:
That Marauder you're criticizing is Marauder Shields
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/marauder-shields
And he deserves your respect. He's not getting in your way, he's trying to protect you from the ending.

Another meme ruined in record time.

[Ganos Lao]

Well, the quote I got there (from the Final Hours app) was part of a larger quote in which Walters said you were supposed to be able to have an actual conversation with the Catalyst and get answers on why he exists and about the Reapers. But then Casey Hudson and him talked and apparently they agreed that it was too "high level" or something to let the fans get to have when they reached that part.

Hell, Mac Walters scribbed down "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE" and apparently Bioware sought to rely on that, at the price of neglecting the promises they made pre-release.

So you're telling me that they turned into Hipster Indie Game Developers. What a load of trash.

I'm going by what I read, man.

Also, the mantra, "LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE," has become the tool used when deriding Bioware or lamenting their choice of actions.

For example:

[Ganos Lao]

Same here.

Likewise. If the rumored DLC expanding on the ending is legit, and if the rumors that it's free are legit, I'll get it, and if it's good enough it might redeem Bioware a bit. If it's even $0.99 for the DLC, I'm never buying another Bioware product again.*

*Though given that TOR is still pretty fun, I'm using "buy" and "product" here without factoring in subscription time costs.

"Whatever we do would likely happen before or during the events of Mass Effect 3, not after."
- Casey Hudson on "after Mass Effect 3." (from Final Hours app)

Bioware claims it is, though, looking into all the complaints so I don't know....

[Oterro]

Sorry for the Kotaku but lololololol

>EAWare
>regard themselves as artists

The awful quality of their works aside, they don't even treat their products like art.

They cut them up and monetize them in the most damaging ways, they insert hamfisted cameos, they spent more on marketing this shit than developing it.

There's about as much love and craftsmanship vested into ME3 as into a McDonald's Happy Meal.

Yeah that's a good point.

Artists don't open galleries, charge an admission price and cover an assortment of paintings then charge extra for seeing the hidden bits.

[Hittanryan]

Sorry for the Kotaku but lololololol

Ah yes, "JRPGs." The genre of endless cookie cutter games allegedly of considerable quality at one point in time. We have dismissed that claim.

To be honest, I laughed at Ultros making a comeback. "Don't feed the octopus, kiddies!"

[The Steel Magnolia]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... g-sort-of/

So this is new.

[The Matthew Islands]

Sorry for the Kotaku but lololololol

The endings are bad, but Christ, it doesn't deserve to be associated with a terrible JRPG.

[Hittanryan]

Sorry for the Kotaku but lololololol

The endings are bad, but Christ, it doesn't deserve to be associated with a terrible JRPG.

To be sure, even with the terrible ending, ME3 still kicks the ever-loving shit out of any Final Fantasy whose number is greater than 6. Then again, that's not setting the bar very high...

[Oterro]

Sorry for the Kotaku but lololololol

Ah yes, "JRPGs." The genre of endless cookie cutter games allegedly of considerable quality at one point in time. We have dismissed that claim.

Dismissing genres is stupid.

The endings are bad, but Christ, it doesn't deserve to be associated with a terrible JRPG.

probably had a better conclusion than mass effect tho

[Hittanryan]

Ah yes, "JRPGs." The genre of endless cookie cutter games allegedly of considerable quality at one point in time. We have dismissed that claim.

Dismissing genres is stupid.

That was a joke.

Don't tell me you've forgotten the turian councilor's air quotes already?

[Oterro]

Dismissing genres is stupid.

That was a joke.

Don't tell me you've forgotten the turian councilor's air quotes already?

Yeah man but everyone hates JRPG's and I need to stick up for the little guy and ;o;

Even though I've never played one.

Anyway have these and my apologies.

They're all old as sin but still!

Yep.

Obviously they'll be releasing the DLC for free as well - to protect artistic integrity!

mfw i'm not downloading the DLC and I'm going to watch the whole thing on YouTube so I know what actually happened.

Ironically a lot of this stuff is a good idea take notes bioware.
You heard him.

[Soleichunn]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).

The asari have been technologically stagnant for millennia. At least the krogan have the whole "lack scientific curiosity" and "need to avoid getting eaten by thresher maw" excuse. The asari and salarians have basically relied on the turians for muscle since the Krogan Rebellions.

Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).

but humanity has a bigger fleet because they build other big ships intead of dreadnoughts because humns are just so smart!!!!!

oh codex~

Pretty sure a binding naval treaty wouldn't define "dreadnought" loosely enough to allow that kind of exploitation. If it were me designing this kind of treaty, I'd go by tonnage and armament to define them, though I would have simply imposed these kinds of restrictions on a broader base than simply capital ships, to allow a real power ratio that can't be hidden behind fleets of heavy cruisers and frigates to be clearly defined.

Go by acceleration-tonnes (max-field) instead of basic tonnage (so you could choose a 1,000,000t ship at 5ms acceleration, or a 5,000,000 at 1ms for their maximum output), and maximum energy output of weapons load (this would give an excuse for carriers - they could drop almost their entire payload [and face overkill issues], whereas the kinect system would be more consistent [but take much longer to finish]) or maximum energy per second (which is more logical).

You know, I never did get how carriers are better for space combat than dreadnaughts - fighters would have to be slower & less agile than the torpedos, as well as being less efficient use of space and fuel (degrading the 'they can launch at once' argument - surely even just replacing the fighters with long range/fast torpedos would be better). The only thing they may do better is more 'organic' control, or better placement (being closer); finding a way to add a guidance system to the projectiles would probably be better.

Then again, I also thought the Asari dreadnought design was silly - a really wide, yet proportionally short hole (only thing I can think of is a weird cooling array that opens out in a non-combat situation)? If I were them it'd be a long, skinny tube (perhaps with a small coil at the beginning, to get a little extra projectile speed without increasing length) with massive turning thrusters

Not to mention the loss in eezo - the stuff can't be that easy to find, and huge amounts would have to be expended in every wave. Surely it would be better to use the extra eezo to build far more powerful drive systems (better agility and ability to choose an engagement) or more efficient accelerators (increase power, allowing for more devastation or smaller size).

[New England and The Maritimes]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).

The asari have been technologically stagnant for millennia. At least the krogan have the whole "lack scientific curiosity" and "need to avoid getting eaten by thresher maw" excuse. The asari and salarians have basically relied on the turians for muscle since the Krogan Rebellions.

Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).

Pretty sure a binding naval treaty wouldn't define "dreadnought" loosely enough to allow that kind of exploitation. If it were me designing this kind of treaty, I'd go by tonnage and armament to define them, though I would have simply imposed these kinds of restrictions on a broader base than simply capital ships, to allow a real power ratio that can't be hidden behind fleets of heavy cruisers and frigates to be clearly defined.

Go by acceleration-tonnes (max-field) instead of basic tonnage (so you could choose a 1,000,000t ship at 5ms acceleration, or a 5,000,000 at 1ms for their maximum output), and maximum energy output of weapons load (this would give an excuse for carriers - they could drop almost their entire payload [and face overkill issues], whereas the kinect system would be more consistent [but take much longer to finish]) or maximum energy per second (which is more logical).

You know, I never did get how carriers are better for space combat than dreadnaughts - fighters would have to be slower & less agile than the torpedos, as well as being less efficient use of space and fuel (degrading the 'they can launch at once' argument - surely even just replacing the fighters with long range/fast torpedos would be better). The only thing they may do better is more 'organic' control, or better placement (being closer); finding a way to add a guidance system to the projectiles would probably be better.

Then again, I also thought the Asari dreadnought design was silly - a really wide, yet proportionally short hole (only thing I can think of is a weird cooling array that opens out in a non-combat situation)? If I were them it'd be a long, skinny tube (perhaps with a small coil at the beginning, to get a little extra projectile speed without increasing length) with massive turning thrusters

Not to mention the loss in eezo - the stuff can't be that easy to find, and huge amounts would have to be expended in every wave. Surely it would be better to use the extra eezo to build far more powerful drive systems (better agility and ability to choose an engagement) or more efficient accelerators (increase power, allowing for more devastation or smaller size).

I think if we went by logical construction we would wind up with a universe that is extremely dull from an aesthetic sense. Rule of cool isn't entirely pointless, ya know.

[Hittanryan]

Tried giving the multiplayer a shot for a while. Origin's shitty, buggy service coupled with the fucking random item crates seems to have killed interest in that for a while. Seriously, I've got 52 spare ammo packs, 50 health packs, and only 7 missiles and 4 revives. I NEVER use the first two and ALWAYS use the second pair. Fuck you random drops.

[Hittanryan]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).

The asari have been technologically stagnant for millennia. At least the krogan have the whole "lack scientific curiosity" and "need to avoid getting eaten by thresher maw" excuse. The asari and salarians have basically relied on the turians for muscle since the Krogan Rebellions.

Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).

Look, the Rachni Wars were fought from around 1-300 A.D. That means while the Roman Empire was was at its peak, the asari and salarians had already mastered FTL travel and were exploring the galaxy with the mass relays. The titular mass effect also allows for portable mass accelerator weaponry. Humans reverse-engineered some FTL tech from the Prothean Mars Archives nearly 2,000 years later. Now look at the First Contact War, before the Alliance had established trade relations and exchanged technology with the Citadel. Human tech was comparable to that of the turians' own, and the Alliance fleet liberated Shanxi from turian occupation. Had the war continued, humanity would've lost due to a turian zerg rush, but not to technological inferiority.

The fact that we had technology that rivaled civilizations thousands of years older than ours doesn't suggest humans are special, it suggests the aliens are stagnant or at least focused elsewhere. This is backed up by the codex. Asari wax philosophical and focus on art, while the turians are militaristic to the extreme, presumably to the detriment of their economy (which is managed by the volus) and their sciences. The salarians have a knack for bioengineering (uplifting and sterilizing the krogan), but Citadel laws keep them down.

[Seangoli]

I'm not entirely sure if this particular piece has been brought up about the indoctrination theory, but there is exactly one line of of evidence that proves to me that it is absolutely true that Bioware was going for this the entire time. One single piece of cutscene, less than a second long (Technically two, but a note on that later). One nail that shuts the door on every other possibility. Spoilered for those who don't want to know yet.

After digging a bit on youtube and watching several videos on the subject, it was pointed out that during the Synthesis/Control options, Shephards eyes change. Not slightly mind you, but in a very distinct manner. His eyes take the appearance of an indoctrinated person, a perfect example being that of TIM. Note that TIM's eyes are distinct. They are concentric circles with two blue dots on the bottom portion. This is abnormal, and is apparent to exist only in indoctrinated individuals.

What does this have to do with Shepard and indoctrination? Well, as I said if you choose either Synthesis or Control, Shepards eyes are no longer normal. They are the exact same design as the indoctrinated, specifically TIM. If you choose destroy, however, his eyes are absolutely normal in appearance. This is not a subjective look at it in the least. It is entirely clear when veiwing the videos closely that Shepard's eyes are those of an indoctrinated if you choose "wrong", and are starkly different from "normal" eyes.

Further, this cannot be explained by poor writing alone. It's not like other instances which are extremely vague, that can be explained by writer ignorance or laziness. This was something that was directly created within the game. It was a deliberate choice to change Shepard's eyes to reflect that of the indoctrinated. There is absolutely no other explanation for this event at all. You can't chalk it up to poor writing in the same sense as you can with other plotholes and what seemed to be a bad ending (as in atrocious, not "sad").

What this means is that the developers made the very deliberate choice to show that Shepards is indoctrinated in either the Synthesis or Control options. It was not something that was overlooked, it was an actual conscious choice on their part that has no other explanation possible what-so-ever.

Now what does this mean? To me, it's obvious. There is at least something, some small part, about the indoctrination theory that is true. It's not that it's a convenient theory to fill up a few holes in the story left unfinished. Rather it is the only possible explanation for this event that can exist. If they didn't go this route, it would be the most nonsensical event you could ever do. To the point where it doesn't make any bit of sense whatsoever why they would put the effort into actually doing it in this manner. At this point in time it is most certainly not wishful thinking. It is an absolute certainty. An absolute certainty proven, strangely, by 2 seconds of cutscene.

Video discussing it, among other more subjective lines of evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI

So it does appear to me, that at the very least the indoctrination theory is partially correct. How far down the rabbit hole it goes is anyone's guess.

[Seangoli]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).



Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).

Look, the Rachni Wars were fought from around 1-300 A.D. That means while the Roman Empire was was at its peak, the asari and salarians had already mastered FTL travel and were exploring the galaxy with the mass relays. The titular mass effect also allows for portable mass accelerator weaponry. Humans reverse-engineered some FTL tech from the Prothean Mars Archives nearly 2,000 years later. Now look at the First Contact War, before the Alliance had established trade relations and exchanged technology with the Citadel. Human tech was comparable to that of the turians' own, and the Alliance fleet liberated Shanxi from turian occupation. Had the war continued, humanity would've lost due to a turian zerg rush, but not to technological inferiority.

The fact that we had technology that rivaled civilizations thousands of years older than ours doesn't suggest humans are special, it suggests the aliens are stagnant or at least focused elsewhere. This is backed up by the codex. Asari wax philosophical and focus on art, while the turians are militaristic to the extreme, presumably to the detriment of their economy (which is managed by the volus) and their sciences. The salarians have a knack for bioengineering (uplifting and sterilizing the krogan), but Citadel laws keep them down.

I'd also like to note that another reason why their technology is stagnant is that it is almost entirely based around Prothean tech and Mass Relay technology. They likely advanced to the point of us, found the relays, had a massive jump forward in certain technology and have spent millenia trying to figure out technology that is about as far beyond them as one can imagine. Technological innovation effectively stagnates as all their "new" technology is decrypted, and expected to be decrypted, from a source. They have spent the past few thousand years doing practically little in terms of "actual" research into new technology, and rather focus on hoping to find something they can use in far older but more advanced tech. Which would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

[New Ziedrich]

So, I just learned that apparently there's this picture of Tali in the game, and it's literally an edited stock image that they used for her face. Ha ha, good job, Bioware!

I guess it's good revenge for all the creepy guys who did things like ponder the composition of her sweat and whatnot. Pfft, it's not like they needed to see her face to make porn of her anyway.

[Hittanryan]

When you put it that way, you make them sound like the Adeptus Mechanicus, who have famously caused a 10000-year-long period of technological stagnation in the Imperium of Man. Their R&D is paced like an ant pushing a brick across a desert, partly due to the risk of corruption by Chaos, partly due to believing that discovering Dark Age technology will solve any current problems, and partly because of their sheer stubborn orthodoxy.

[Genivaria]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).



Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).

Look, the Rachni Wars were fought from around 1-300 A.D. That means while the Roman Empire was was at its peak, the asari and salarians had already mastered FTL travel and were exploring the galaxy with the mass relays. The titular mass effect also allows for portable mass accelerator weaponry. Humans reverse-engineered some FTL tech from the Prothean Mars Archives nearly 2,000 years later. Now look at the First Contact War, before the Alliance had established trade relations and exchanged technology with the Citadel. Human tech was comparable to that of the turians' own, and the Alliance fleet liberated Shanxi from turian occupation. Had the war continued, humanity would've lost due to a turian zerg rush, but not to technological inferiority.

The fact that we had technology that rivaled civilizations thousands of years older than ours doesn't suggest humans are special, it suggests the aliens are stagnant or at least focused elsewhere. This is backed up by the codex. Asari wax philosophical and focus on art, while the turians are militaristic to the extreme, presumably to the detriment of their economy (which is managed by the volus) and their sciences. The salarians have a knack for bioengineering (uplifting and sterilizing the krogan), but Citadel laws keep them down.

You would think that under a government with these 3 different species they would cover each other's weaknesses and boost their strengths, yet the Citadel Council doesn't work like that.

[Seangoli]

When you put it that way, you make them sound like the Adeptus Mechanicus, who have famously caused a 10000-year-long period of technological stagnation in the Imperium of Man. Their R&D is paced like an ant pushing a brick across a desert, partly due to the risk of corruption by Chaos, partly due to believing that discovering Dark Age technology will solve any current problems, and partly because of their sheer stubborn orthodoxy.

It makes a certain degree of sense, really. Finding an amazingly advanced piece of technology, and being able to reverse engineer it, only gets you so far. Problem arises in that this creates a situation where you simply will not research into these areas, as there is no point to it. You simply carp off of what is already there. Many technological advances in the real world are piggy-backs off of earlier developments. Further, why would you even bother any more if you have what is apparently "perfect" technology at your disposal. Anything you produce will be outshadowed by anything that is purely a re-purposed piece of advanced tech. In essence, you are wasting resources on reinventing the wheel. But, once again, this creates technological stagnation as your technology is entirely based off of this stuff that you found thousands of years in the past.

So, it's really no surprise that humans are as "advanced" so-to-speak as other species because it's only natural for a species' technology to stagnate after its first initial jump forward. It cannot advance beyond the Mass Relay and other technologies, as these are far more advanced than anything they mustered on their own.

[Soleichunn]

Warning: Haven't played ME3 yet (so I'm not up on the updated codex).



Where does it say that (about the asari)? I always get the impression that the humans just magically had a huge tech boost (because they're 'speshul'), and magically managed to integrate almost all free tech that the other council species had in only a few years (for the same reason).



Go by acceleration-tonnes (max-field) instead of basic tonnage (so you could choose a 1,000,000t ship at 5ms acceleration, or a 5,000,000 at 1ms for their maximum output), and maximum energy output of weapons load (this would give an excuse for carriers - they could drop almost their entire payload [and face overkill issues], whereas the kinect system would be more consistent [but take much longer to finish]) or maximum energy per second (which is more logical).

You know, I never did get how carriers are better for space combat than dreadnaughts - fighters would have to be slower & less agile than the torpedos, as well as being less efficient use of space and fuel (degrading the 'they can launch at once' argument - surely even just replacing the fighters with long range/fast torpedos would be better). The only thing they may do better is more 'organic' control, or better placement (being closer); finding a way to add a guidance system to the projectiles would probably be better.

Then again, I also thought the Asari dreadnought design was silly - a really wide, yet proportionally short hole (only thing I can think of is a weird cooling array that opens out in a non-combat situation)? If I were them it'd be a long, skinny tube (perhaps with a small coil at the beginning, to get a little extra projectile speed without increasing length) with massive turning thrusters

Not to mention the loss in eezo - the stuff can't be that easy to find, and huge amounts would have to be expended in every wave. Surely it would be better to use the extra eezo to build far more powerful drive systems (better agility and ability to choose an engagement) or more efficient accelerators (increase power, allowing for more devastation or smaller size).

I think if we went by logical construction we would wind up with a universe that is extremely dull from an aesthetic sense. Rule of cool isn't entirely pointless, ya know.

All of those (except perhaps the Destiny Ascension) have no (massive ) effect on the 'coolness' of the setting (notice I'm not pushing for 'no sound in space'), unless you have to have human super-duper-greatness. I'm just a bit annoyed at humans needing something to show they're the greatest, and anything aliens have over humans is just because they not great enough to think of these breathroughs, so carriers have to be shoehorned in [note - if dreadnoughts were presented as relying only on torpedos as well, or if, this wouldn't be an annoyance for me]).

Now, fighters could be shoehorned in to a lesser degree by taking the approach of early WW1 fighters - they initially were scouting craft (because a battle with 'artillery', projectiles going at only 1.2c would need a lot of data to accurately target the ships), with fighters developed to destroy these craft.