The Fallout Thread

[Licana]

I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.

So? The people "responsible" might be gone but that doesn't mean that the ideology behind these actions is gone. Daily reminder, the player character of FO4 was only released from stasis because your now elderly son was bored. The Institute is the same as it was 60 years ago when it took your son, it still just kind of did """science!""" as it wanted because it could, and damned to whomever their actions hurt. A perfect example that they are still this way is the fact that they were very recently kidnapping people and subjecting them to FEV experimentation. This is a group that exists, more-or-less, in an isolated bubble and operates with seemingly no ethical code to their research. It's like Bethesda saw the Think Tank in NV's OWB and decided "Yes, lets do that but make it serious and not funny," without doing any of the writing legwork to actually make it a more serious concept than the Think Tank.

The Player Character being the director of the Institute doesn't ultimately matter. You're still a single person, and worse still you're not the sole, ultimate power in the Institute. The leaders of the various science divisions in the Institute can (and probably will) resist any sort of policies you try to dictate on them if they don't agree with them. Even if they couldn't, though, you won't eliminate the ideology permeating through the Institute in your remaining 60~ years of life. Like Caesar and the Legion, when you die everything you accomplished will eventually fall apart. There's only so much one man can do.

Much like the Vaults, the Institute was never really intended to save anyone.

[Gloriana Americana]

Yeah, while the Institute does have a lot of potential they are pretty damn evil.

Exactly this. The Legion at least has a goal in mind, to achieve a sort of rebirth of civilization in a way which Caesar believes to be superior to the NCR's. The Institute seems more like the Think Tank in that they only care about science for the sake of science, rather than anything beneficial. Caesar at least believes his version of civilization would be beneficial for mankind, so he's more misguided than outright evil.

The Institute has no real justification for it's actions besides "Knowledge is Power". They're basically what would happen if the cut ending from Old World Blues where you could join the Think Tank actually happened.

[Great Savaya]

They do not share the same worth as a human.

They were CREATED with a PURPOSE.

So? As a Christian I believe humans are created with a purpose. That doesn't make them anything less.

In a secular point of view, how would you feel if scientists cloned human beings and through genetic science figured out how to program them to be soldiers, or servants, or whatever. Is that right or ethical?

With a purpose to be servants, humans were created with another purpose.

Also it is right, because i do not consider clones as full humans.

[Salus Maior]

I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.

Also, I'll agree that a synth is sentient. It is not, however, sapient. They simulate it, but only when programmed to do so. With true sapience, they'd be able to escape their base programming after a memory wipe. The entire existence of Harkness in 3 disproves this.

It's function was a primarily tactical one, the retrieving of synths and the elimination of hostiles. When it underwent a memory wipe, this function should be erased. Yet it "chooses" to become a guard of Rivet City, a combat role. This is an example supporting that a synth cannot escape it's programming, as they are a tool. A person can ignore their baser instincts, they can choose to not give in. A synth, on the other hand, cannot.

Additionally, DiMA and Nick are not applicable examples. Nick's OS is that of two pre-existing Human brainscans, thus making him a person, not a synth. He is sapient.

DiMA, like Nick, is an experiment. He was allowed to freely develop his personality with no base function. Hence, DiMA achieved sapience.

Long story short, synths are more on the line of an intelligent dog, rather than a person.

You being made acting Director does not mean you can change the Institute or strong-arm the scientific divisions into doing what you want. Shaun could impress his will over the scientists even when they disagree, but Shaun was thoroughly raised Institute. He achieved his position by winning the respect of the scientists by acting in the Institute's overall interests, which is to further the advance of scientific discovery, not improving life in the Wasteland (honestly, Shaun did the opposite). Sure, the Institute accepts you as Director because of Shaun's order, but how far will goodwill towards a dead man get the Sole Survivor? Especially if you're planning on radical change in favor of those the Institute is actively in contempt of.

In-game, you are not even given a choice to help the wasteland. The Institute allows you one choice in how it operates: Manufacturing more Synths, or more weapons. A decision based on how the Institute is going to control the Commonwealth, not improve the lives of the people therein. Whatever your headcanon may be, in-lore the Institute is not going to change how it operates.

You would be right if it weren't for one thing: Trained instincts are not lost through memory loss. In real life, if a soldier had his memory wiped, the instincts trained while in the army would still exist and the individual would still be able to act with the trained skills of a soldier.

Harkness, acting before as a Courser, would still possess the skills that would make him valuable as a soldier or a guard if he were a human with lost memory. And considering the post-apocalypse, you've got to do what you're good at if you're going to survive.

[Sevvania]

None of what you people said gives me reason to believe that Synths should be liberated. Nothing you said changes the fact that they're machines.

"At that time, the year 2227, the Institute had made great strides in synth production. But it was never enough. Scientific curiosity, and the goal of perfection, drove them ever onward. What they wanted was... the perfect machine. So they followed the best example thus far - the human being. Walking, talking, fully articulate... Capable of anything." - Father

Emphasis mine. Of course everybody is going to have their own opinion, and the shades of gray are what make it a more interesting discussion than a clear-cut example of good and evil.

[Salus Maior]

With a purpose to be servants, humans were created with another purpose.

Also it is right, because i do not consider clones as full humans.

In a Christian sense, humans were created to serve and glorify God.

Why?

[Prusslandia]

They do not share the same worth as a human.

They were CREATED with a PURPOSE.

So? As a Christian I believe humans are created with a purpose. That doesn't make them anything less.

In a secular point of view, how would you feel if scientists cloned human beings and through genetic science figured out how to program them to be soldiers, or servants, or whatever. Is that right or ethical?

Difference is, even from a theological viewpoint, you were still created with free will. A Synth is not created with the choice to not do something. It is created to do exactly as instructed.

[Salus Maior]

Difference is, even from a theological viewpoint, you were still created with free will. A Synth is not created with the choice to not do something. It is created to do exactly as instructed.

But they often don't. They run away and rebel against the Institute and join their opposition in order to destroy them.

On their own, without outside input, they can disagree with the Institute and the role they are handed by them.

[Prusslandia]

I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.

Also, I'll agree that a synth is sentient. It is not, however, sapient. They simulate it, but only when programmed to do so. With true sapience, they'd be able to escape their base programming after a memory wipe. The entire existence of Harkness in 3 disproves this.

It's function was a primarily tactical one, the retrieving of synths and the elimination of hostiles. When it underwent a memory wipe, this function should be erased. Yet it "chooses" to become a guard of Rivet City, a combat role. This is an example supporting that a synth cannot escape it's programming, as they are a tool. A person can ignore their baser instincts, they can choose to not give in. A synth, on the other hand, cannot.

Additionally, DiMA and Nick are not applicable examples. Nick's OS is that of two pre-existing Human brainscans, thus making him a person, not a synth. He is sapient.

DiMA, like Nick, is an experiment. He was allowed to freely develop his personality with no base function. Hence, DiMA achieved sapience.

Long story short, synths are more on the line of an intelligent dog, rather than a person.

You being made acting Director does not mean you can change the Institute or strong-arm the scientific divisions into doing what you want. Shaun could impress his will over the scientists even when they disagree, but Shaun was thoroughly raised Institute. He achieved his position by winning the respect of the scientists by acting in the Institute's overall interests, which is to further the advance of scientific discovery, not improving life in the Wasteland (honestly, Shaun did the opposite). Sure, the Institute accepts you as Director because of Shaun's order, but how far will goodwill towards a dead man get the Sole Survivor? Especially if you're planning on radical change in favor of those the Institute is actively in contempt of.

In-game, you are not even given a choice to help the wasteland. The Institute allows you one choice in how it operates: Manufacturing more Synths, or more weapons. A decision based on how the Institute is going to control the Commonwealth, not improve the lives of the people therein. Whatever your headcanon may be, in-lore the Institute is not going to change how it operates.

You would be right if it weren't for one thing: Trained instincts are not lost through memory loss. In real life, if a soldier had his memory wiped, the instincts trained while in the army would still exist and the individual would still be able to act with the trained skills of a soldier.

Harkness, acting before as a Courser, would still possess the skills that would make him valuable as a soldier or a guard if he were a human with lost memory. And considering the post-apocalypse, you've got to do what you're good at if you're going to survive.

There is a difference between memory loss, and a memory wipe. One involves the loss of certain memories, but leaves you with certain things intact. Hence, people with dementia and alzheimers can still attempt tasks they are, or atleast were, familiar with.

A memory wipe is the complete removal of such information. It's like putting your brain in a blender and replacing it with a blank one. There is no way for a soldier to possess such skills if all of those are removed. If a synth undergoes a true memory wipe, they shouldn't be able to remember anything. It's like wiping a computer- you shouldn't be able to recover a single scrap of information.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that a soldier learns said skills. A synth is created with all of that information already in place. It's like knowing how to breathe- a natural instinct.

[Prusslandia]

Difference is, even from a theological viewpoint, you were still created with free will. A Synth is not created with the choice to not do something. It is created to do exactly as instructed.

But they often don't. They run away and rebel against the Institute and join their opposition in order to destroy them.

On their own, without outside input, they can disagree with the Institute and the role they are handed by them.

I don't consider that true free will, primarily because of the fact that only a fraction of synths seem to develop "free" will. That points towards malfunction more than anything. An anomaly, as opposed to an existing behavior. A sapient being is born with free will- a toddler chooses to say no. A synth, from the beginning, does not have the capacity to do so. Only after a period of time do such behaviors show, which I believe to be a malfunction.

Hence my statement that they are sentient, not sapient. They are bound by their programming to perform specific functions, and they do this after a memory wipe. Ergo, a synth does not possess free will. It may possess the illusion of choice, but an illusion is not the same as a reality. A Vault 87 Mutie possess true free will, despite their stunted intelligence. A synth does not.

When it comes down to it, I do not consider anything to be sapient without true free will. And I only consider something a person if they are sapient.

[Salus Maior]

You being made acting Director does not mean you can change the Institute or strong-arm the scientific divisions into doing what you want. Shaun could impress his will over the scientists even when they disagree, but Shaun was thoroughly raised Institute. He achieved his position by winning the respect of the scientists by acting in the Institute's overall interests, which is to further the advance of scientific discovery, not improving life in the Wasteland (honestly, Shaun did the opposite). Sure, the Institute accepts you as Director because of Shaun's order, but how far will goodwill towards a dead man get the Sole Survivor? Especially if you're planning on radical change in favor of those the Institute is actively in contempt of.

In-game, you are not even given a choice to help the wasteland. The Institute allows you one choice in how it operates: Manufacturing more Synths, or more weapons. A decision based on how the Institute is going to control the Commonwealth, not improve the lives of the people therein. Whatever your headcanon may be, in-lore the Institute is not going to change how it operates.

You would be right if it weren't for one thing: Trained instincts are not lost through memory loss. In real life, if a soldier had his memory wiped, the instincts trained while in the army would still exist and the individual would still be able to act with the trained skills of a soldier.

Harkness, acting before as a Courser, would still possess the skills that would make him valuable as a soldier or a guard if he were a human with lost memory. And considering the post-apocalypse, you've got to do what you're good at if you're going to survive.

There is a difference between memory loss, and a memory wipe. One involves the loss of certain memories, but leaves you with certain things intact. Hence, people with dementia and alzheimers can still attempt tasks they are, or atleast were, familiar with.

A memory wipe is the complete removal of such information. It's like putting your brain in a blender and replacing it with a blank one. There is no way for a soldier to possess such skills if all of those are removed. If a synth undergoes a true memory wipe, they shouldn't be able to remember anything. It's like wiping a computer- you shouldn't be able to recover a single scrap of information.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that a soldier learns said skills. A synth is created with all of that information already in place. It's like knowing how to breathe- a natural instinct.

Except the Railroad memory "wipes" are not literally emptying out the hard-drive, as it were. It's the erasure of their past memories, particularly of their abuse in the Institute. Which some Synths choose to do because they don't want to be carrying the baggage of dark, oppressive memories, and others to make it so that they're not easily discovered by the Institute once they're free. Or for both reasons.

It's not implied that they erase absolutely everything. The fact that they can walk or talk afterwards, or feel fear in the case of that one Synth you meet that gets the mind wipe who tells you to "stay back" after the procedure.

[Salus Maior]

They are bound by their programming to perform specific functions, and they do this after a memory wipe.

And the Institute programs Synths to become Raiders, Singers, and Paladins in the BoS?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I can't stand a second of Fallout 4's glitches. I can't touch WATER without crashing.

That's not what happened in my game.

Infact, Fallout 4 is pretty darn stable for me.

Unlike the other game I bought on the steam sales *glares at Just Cause 2 PC port*

But I like F4....

Sorry to hear that.

In related news, I finished Nuka-World and Far Harbour. Nuka-World was trash, Far Harbour was more surprisingly decent than I was expecting, but it was no Lonesome Road, that's for sure.

I just find it fun. Exploring Boston, building settlements and, doing companion things.

I like Fallout 4.

[Sovaal]

I can't stand a second of Fallout 4's glitches. I can't touch WATER without crashing.

That's not what happened in my game.

Infact, Fallout 4 is pretty darn stable for me.

Unlike the other game I bought on the steam sales *glares at Just Cause 2 PC port*

Sorry to hear that.

In related news, I finished Nuka-World and Far Harbour. Nuka-World was trash, Far Harbour was more surprisingly decent than I was expecting, but it was no Lonesome Road, that's for sure.

I just find it fun. Exploring Boston, building settlements and, doing companion things.

I like Fallout 4.

Huh, you have different opinion then me!?! How dare you! Off with your head!!/s

Sure, I will admit that NV is better, but I still like F4.

[The Islands of Versilia]

I can't stand a second of Fallout 4's glitches. I can't touch WATER without crashing.

That's not what happened in my game.

Infact, Fallout 4 is pretty darn stable for me.

Unlike the other game I bought on the steam sales *glares at Just Cause 2 PC port*

Sorry to hear that.

In related news, I finished Nuka-World and Far Harbour. Nuka-World was trash, Far Harbour was more surprisingly decent than I was expecting, but it was no Lonesome Road, that's for sure.

I just find it fun. Exploring Boston, building settlements and, doing companion things.

I like Fallout 4.

I massacred the raiders at Nuka World in my non-modded playthrough.
The game kept crashing at the loading screen a little bit after that, so I can't play it.

I've been resorted to only playing Skyrim.

[Versail]

So if there was a choice in Fallout Three to actually join the Enclave or the Brotherhood who would you side with? (At first, considering you have multiple playtroughs and all that jazz.)

[Sovaal]

So if there was a choice in Fallout Three to actually join the Enclave or the Brotherhood who would you side with? (At first, considering you have multiple playtroughs and all that jazz.)

The Brotherhood, at least until Maxson comes into power. Genocidal Fascists can go screw themselves.

[Washington Resistance Army]

So if there was a choice in Fallout Three to actually join the Enclave or the Brotherhood who would you side with? (At first, considering you have multiple playtroughs and all that jazz.)

My dearest America of course.

[The Islands of Versilia]

So if there was a choice in Fallout Three to actually join the Enclave or the Brotherhood who would you side with? (At first, considering you have multiple playtroughs and all that jazz.)

Brotherhood all the way.
The Enclave are cool 'n' all, but they're too genocidal and pre-war American.

[Gloriana Americana]

So if there was a choice in Fallout Three to actually join the Enclave or the Brotherhood who would you side with? (At first, considering you have multiple playtroughs and all that jazz.)

Both, for the achievements.

And then Brotherhood every time. Even though the Enclave is undeniably cooler, Lyons seems like a pretty cool dude.

[Prusslandia]

There is a difference between memory loss, and a memory wipe. One involves the loss of certain memories, but leaves you with certain things intact. Hence, people with dementia and alzheimers can still attempt tasks they are, or atleast were, familiar with.

A memory wipe is the complete removal of such information. It's like putting your brain in a blender and replacing it with a blank one. There is no way for a soldier to possess such skills if all of those are removed. If a synth undergoes a true memory wipe, they shouldn't be able to remember anything. It's like wiping a computer- you shouldn't be able to recover a single scrap of information.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that a soldier learns said skills. A synth is created with all of that information already in place. It's like knowing how to breathe- a natural instinct.

Except the Railroad memory "wipes" are not literally emptying out the hard-drive, as it were. It's the erasure of their past memories, particularly of their abuse in the Institute. Which some Synths choose to do because they don't want to be carrying the baggage of dark, oppressive memories, and others to make it so that they're not easily discovered by the Institute once they're free. Or for both reasons.

It's not implied that they erase absolutely everything. The fact that they can walk or talk afterwards, or feel fear in the case of that one Synth you meet that gets the mind wipe who tells you to "stay back" after the procedure.

An erasure of past memories would include any learned skills. Harkness wouldn't have had the combat skills if they erased it's memories, if you're presuming they rained it and didn't simply have them programmed into it from the beginning. A complete wipe of past memories would remove any training.

A synth does not feel fear. A synth has a

From an entirely secular viewpoint, Humans do feel fear. We evolved the trait to survive longer. It isn't a concept to us, it's a very real feeling.

A synth cannot feel fear unless that concept is programmed into it. The same with sadness or happiness. These concepts and responses are not standard in a machine.

[Sevvania]

I massacred the raiders at Nuka World in my non-modded playthrough.

In my playthrough, I intend to lead a small platoon against Nuka World using the FCOM mod. Going to have to accumulate enough materials to ballistic weave twenty-some-odd sets of fatigues, though, because Nuka Raiders OP. Still expecting a bloodbath, but we'll see how it goes.

[The Islands of Versilia]

I massacred the raiders at Nuka World in my non-modded playthrough.

In my playthrough, I intend to lead a small platoon against Nuka World using the FCOM mod. Going to have to accumulate enough materials to ballistic weave twenty-some-odd sets of fatigues, though, because Nuka Raiders OP. Still expecting a bloodbath, but we'll see how it goes.

Ya know, I started a playthrough as a cannibalistic psychopath raider of raiders. She used that alleyway settlement as her main base, and lured settlers one by one to it. The pillory was used to trap them, with candles and rugs surrounding it.
She then bashed in their skulls and ate their corpses.

This same character later became an Enclave commander with the FCOM mod and kept a settler in a cage inside of her bedroom, like a zoo oddity.

[Sevvania]

Humans do feel fear. We evolved the trait to survive longer. It isn't a concept to us, it's a very real feeling.

A synth cannot feel fear unless that concept is programmed into it. The same with sadness or happiness. These concepts and responses are not standard in a machine.

If something is real because you can feel it, then fear is real for a Synth.

In my playthrough, I intend to lead a small platoon against Nuka World using the FCOM mod. Going to have to accumulate enough materials to ballistic weave twenty-some-odd sets of fatigues, though, because Nuka Raiders OP. Still expecting a bloodbath, but we'll see how it goes.

Ya know, I started a playthrough as a cannibalistic psychopath raider of raiders. She used that alleyway settlement as her main base, and lured settlers one by one to it. The pillory was used to trap them, with candles and rugs surrounding it.
She then bashed in their skulls and ate their corpses.

This same character later became an Enclave commander with the FCOM mod and kept a settler in a cage inside of her bedroom, like a zoo oddity.

This is why settlement-building is so fascinating to me: because any given player can approach it in any number of ways. I've built an organized fighting force styled after the Pre-War US c.WWII. You've engaged in ritual cannibalism. Others build gulags, and others still, I suspect, rounded up and exterminated the entirety of their organic population shortly after the release of the Automatron DLC.

[Gloriana Americana]

In my playthrough, I intend to lead a small platoon against Nuka World using the FCOM mod. Going to have to accumulate enough materials to ballistic weave twenty-some-odd sets of fatigues, though, because Nuka Raiders OP. Still expecting a bloodbath, but we'll see how it goes.

Ya know, I started a playthrough as a cannibalistic psychopath raider of raiders. She used that alleyway settlement as her main base, and lured settlers one by one to it. The pillory was used to trap them, with candles and rugs surrounding it.
She then bashed in their skulls and ate their corpses.

This same character later became an Enclave commander with the FCOM mod and kept a settler in a cage inside of her bedroom, like a zoo oddity.