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Legitimate complaints about the General forum

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

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NERVUN
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 29456
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:07 pm

Wiztopia wrote:
NERVUN wrote:After listening to the posts here in this thread and discussion amongst the Mods, we'd like to propose the following changes for General to you all to see if this comes close to what you think would help get more social life and a tighter community to NSG.

1. Social threads will be back in General as long as they lead to some kind of discussion OR are aimed at General. What this means is that silly news, what's your favorite X, and the like will be acceptable as well as threads like Sexiest NSG'er. Threads that are chat threads (Such as the Bistro), game threads, rate the X above, and RPs will still call F7 home. We're going to try to use the OP's original placement as a guide, but we still might move threads that obviously seem out of place.

2. Pictures will be back in General as long as they are somewhat relevant to the discussion (In other words not just pics for pics sake) and spoiler'ed (Especially when quoting (And please note Ard is threatening much violence in this case)). Memes are still forbidden.

In other words, randomly posting
Image
will make us all
Image


3. We will relax the rules on gravedigs to allow a shelf life of 3 months as long as the post does add to the discussion and the topic itself is not one of NSG's Greatest Hits. For example, posts such as "Me too" or "I disagree" without much elaboration would still be considered a gravedig. Posts that address a previous post and expand would not (I.e. I agree, but I think that we need to look at X, Y, and Z because...). Posts that do expand but are in a topic that comes up constantly in General (Such as abortion) will be still considered a gravedig as chances are we've got another thread on the topic already going and we really don't need 4 or 5 threads on the same topic.

Again, this is based off of what we heard from posters in this thread that they think would help General. F7 obviously isn't going anywhere and while we want to let General talk about most anything, it wouldn't be right to duplicate F7 or attempt to kill off that community as well. Hopefully this provides a balance point to keep General from JUST being serious business.

That said, as I, and the other Mods have stated, a lot of what we heard in this thread is not subject to Moderation or anything we can affect. Hopefully having more social opportunities will help, but Kat said it best that if we all want General to have a tighter community and a more welcoming one; the posters (And that includes us Mods who call General home) in General have to look to themselves and be kinder to each other.


What if somebody says "me too" but somebody else responds with an on topic post and starts a discussion?

It would be handled on a case by case basis in that regards.

In other words, depends on when we notice/gets reported. If there's an actuall discussion going on, we'll leave it open. If it's "me too", "me too", "Me too", "Hey, have you guys ever thought about..." and a few hours have passed...

It also would depend on the age of the thread. The closer we get to the shelf life, the more likely the lock in those cases.
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Barringtonia
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Founded: Feb 05, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Barringtonia » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:34 pm

I, for one, welcome our new everlasting peace on General.
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Laerod
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Founded: Jul 17, 2004
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Laerod » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:41 pm

I'm a bit skeptical on the gravedig rule changes, but otherwise it sounds like a step in the right direction.

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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:46 pm

Laerod wrote:I'm a bit skeptical on the gravedig rule changes, but otherwise it sounds like a step in the right direction.

Skeptical about what?
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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:51 pm

Good news overall. Let's see how this turns out and if it needs tweaking in a few months. I'm not sure about the gravedig rules though, a nice grey area but hopefull it will work out well.
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Audentias Gryphus
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Ex-Nation

Postby Audentias Gryphus » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:26 pm

NERVUN wrote:
Laerod wrote:I'm a bit skeptical on the gravedig rule changes, but otherwise it sounds like a step in the right direction.

Skeptical about what?

It's a poor use of an English expression, but I take it he means it probably won't turn out as well as projected.
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:36 pm

Audentias Gryphus wrote:
NERVUN wrote:Skeptical about what?

It's a poor use of an English expression, but I take it he means it probably won't turn out as well as projected.

:palm: I mean, what, exactly, about the gravedig rules does he (and the sheep ;) ) have doubts about. Is this something about the rules as written? Somethat it can be changed? What?

Remember folks, these are our proposals, they're not written in stone, yet. If people are happy with them, we'll be glad to make the changes, but if you think they can be improved upon PLEASE speak up about it!
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Geniasis
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Founded: Sep 28, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Geniasis » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:53 pm

WHAT DO YOU MEAN MEMES ARE FORBI--

Er... I mean, yes. Yes, I like the proposal. I've never had an issue with the pics or gravedigging, so I'll just say that I think the guidelines you've set on how to relax General seem fair to me.

Also, to those who thought that the Mods were going to ignore us and nothing would be done (like I myself once thought)... I hope you're all feeling as optimistic as I am (i.e. a lot).
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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:02 pm

Muravyets wrote:
NERVUN wrote:I'm not sure that you remember where I am, nor am I sure that you know the time difference between Japan and your location, but my original post was made at 8:15am on Tuesday. I posted quickly trying to note that we are taking player's points of view very seriously and that the closed door stuff is the Moderator guidelines that we need to do our jobs.

Then I went running down the hall because today is when I tested each and every one of my first year students, all 160+ of them, one by one. So instead of being rude, I was being busy and trying to respond to what I thought was a quick point I could make before I went off to do what I am supposed to be doing, teaching.

But it did not occur to you that you should have not posted at all until you had time?

You must know that the details of your working day are not visible to the posters in NS, so I'm not exactly clear on why you're citing them as an explanation of your actions in NS now

I would be very happy if no-one was this rude to a mod again.

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Tagmatium
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Tagmatium » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:23 pm

[violet] wrote:
Muravyets wrote:But it did not occur to you that you should have not posted at all until you had time?

You must know that the details of your working day are not visible to the posters in NS, so I'm not exactly clear on why you're citing them as an explanation of your actions in NS now

I would be very happy if no-one was this rude to a mod again.

It's a fair enough point.
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Barringtonia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Barringtonia » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:26 pm

If I don't have a legally-strict definition of a ruling then I cannot function properly and must test the grave-dig rule until I have a razor-thin line over what's acceptable.

Seriously, surely there's some quid pro quo to these suggestions by the Mods whereby we're to reciprocate in being a little more flexible in our acceptance of some rulings rather than requiring some constitutional mandate.
Last edited by Barringtonia on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:37 pm

Barringtonia wrote:If I don't have a legally-strict definition of a ruling then I cannot function properly and must test the grave-dig rule until I have a razor-thin line over what's acceptable.

Seriously, surely there's some quid pro quo to these suggestions by the Mods whereby we're to reciprocate in being a little more flexible in our acceptance of some rulings rather than requiring some constitutional mandate.

That'd be nice too. :p
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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:42 pm

Sorry Nervun, but I'm a meat & potatoes kind of guy, so I'm jumping straight to points I disagree with. If I don't mention a point, either I agree or I'm blithely indifferent.

NERVUN wrote:2. Pictures will be back in General as long as they are somewhat relevant to the discussion (In other words not just pics for pics sake) and spoiler'ed (Especially when quoting (And please note Ard is threatening much violence in this case)). Memes are still forbidden.

In other words, randomly posting
Image
will make us all
Image


This is a problem. Some arguments need answering with a surprise visual demonstration of why that's a really bad idea. Restricting images to spoiler tags means half of the readers won't see it. That spoils the rebut.

3. We will relax the rules on gravedigs to allow a shelf life of 3 months as long as the post does add to the discussion and the topic itself is not one of NSG's Greatest Hits. For example, posts such as "Me too" or "I disagree" without much elaboration would still be considered a gravedig. Posts that address a previous post and expand would not (I.e. I agree, but I think that we need to look at X, Y, and Z because...). Posts that do expand but are in a topic that comes up constantly in General (Such as abortion) will be still considered a gravedig as chances are we've got another thread on the topic already going and we really don't need 4 or 5 threads on the same topic.


I'm not sure I agree with this, although it's not as strong of a disagreement. It's like "somewhat disagree" on those questionnaires.

NSG is a fast moving forum, and three months is a long time. I did a quick check, and that's almost 100 pages back (Sept 7th is page 100, and today's Dec 9th). We will constantly be regurgitating old threads. We already have a problem with threads that never seem to die. Do we want to make it worse?

Again, this is based off of what we heard from posters in this thread that they think would help General.


Well that was your first mistake. Generalities are nuts.

That said, as I, and the other Mods have stated, a lot of what we heard in this thread is not subject to Moderation or anything we can affect. Hopefully having more social opportunities will help, but Kat said it best that if we all want General to have a tighter community and a more welcoming one; the posters (And that includes us Mods who call General home) in General have to look to themselves and be kinder to each other.

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read, no offense. It's a nice pipe-dream that general can become the kind accepting sort of place, but, then again, the same could be said for Washington, D.C. Neither place, in my experience, has ever been that way.

I'll do my part, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Umm, that ends my critique. I don't know what it's worth, but there it is.
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:04 pm

Galloism wrote:Sorry Nervun, but I'm a meat & potatoes kind of guy, so I'm jumping straight to points I disagree with. If I don't mention a point, either I agree or I'm blithely indifferent.

NERVUN wrote:2. Pictures will be back in General as long as they are somewhat relevant to the discussion (In other words not just pics for pics sake) and spoiler'ed (Especially when quoting (And please note Ard is threatening much violence in this case)). Memes are still forbidden.

In other words, randomly posting
Image
will make us all
Image


This is a problem. Some arguments need answering with a surprise visual demonstration of why that's a really bad idea. Restricting images to spoiler tags means half of the readers won't see it. That spoils the rebut.

This is an issue, yeah, but half the posters don't want to see the images too.

However, what if we changed that to
and spoiler'ing is encouraged; however they MUST be spoiler'ed when quoted (Especially when quoting (And please note Ard is threatening much violence in this case)).


Ard (Who is the one most rabid about quoted images) notes that wit dulls sharply when repeated several times. I agree with her that it gets annoying to see the same image quoted 3 or 4 times. Once was funny, after that though...

3. We will relax the rules on gravedigs to allow a shelf life of 3 months as long as the post does add to the discussion and the topic itself is not one of NSG's Greatest Hits. For example, posts such as "Me too" or "I disagree" without much elaboration would still be considered a gravedig. Posts that address a previous post and expand would not (I.e. I agree, but I think that we need to look at X, Y, and Z because...). Posts that do expand but are in a topic that comes up constantly in General (Such as abortion) will be still considered a gravedig as chances are we've got another thread on the topic already going and we really don't need 4 or 5 threads on the same topic.


I'm not sure I agree with this, although it's not as strong of a disagreement. It's like "somewhat disagree" on those questionnaires.

NSG is a fast moving forum, and three months is a long time. I did a quick check, and that's almost 100 pages back (Sept 7th is page 100, and today's Dec 9th). We will constantly be regurgitating old threads. We already have a problem with threads that never seem to die. Do we want to make it worse?

Ok, what seems a better lifespan then? A month? Right now Mods are ranging from a week to two weeks in terms of a threadlife span.

Again, this is based off of what we heard from posters in this thread that they think would help General.


Well that was your first mistake. Generalities are nuts.

Well, yes. And we're people who attempt to heard them. :p

That said, as I, and the other Mods have stated, a lot of what we heard in this thread is not subject to Moderation or anything we can affect. Hopefully having more social opportunities will help, but Kat said it best that if we all want General to have a tighter community and a more welcoming one; the posters (And that includes us Mods who call General home) in General have to look to themselves and be kinder to each other.

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read, no offense. It's a nice pipe-dream that general can become the kind accepting sort of place, but, then again, the same could be said for Washington, D.C. Neither place, in my experience, has ever been that way.

I'll do my part, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Umm, that ends my critique. I don't know what it's worth, but there it is.

Well, that's what people have said they want. If they're willing to make the attempt, we're more than willing to help. Now, if we can get there, THAT'S another question, and one we cannot moderate on. And thank you for your reply. We do need the feedback.
Last edited by NERVUN on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Audentias Gryphus
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Founded: Oct 12, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Audentias Gryphus » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:08 pm

NERVUN wrote:
Galloism wrote:Sorry Nervun, but I'm a meat & potatoes kind of guy, so I'm jumping straight to points I disagree with. If I don't mention a point, either I agree or I'm blithely indifferent.



This is a problem. Some arguments need answering with a surprise visual demonstration of why that's a really bad idea. Restricting images to spoiler tags means half of the readers won't see it. That spoils the rebut.

This is an issue, yeah, but half the posters don't want to see the images too.

*sigh* You can't please everybody.
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United Dependencies
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Founded: Oct 22, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby United Dependencies » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:11 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
I'd like to touch on what a lot of people have been saying.

For starters, I recognise that much of the complaints about NS are cyclical. "Oh no, too many social threads in NSG!" "Oh no, not enough social threads in NSG!" It seems like we can't be pleased. However, I think the latter is a legit concern.

Dyakovo's yearly "sexist NSGer" thread has been a thing for Generalites to relax and chat with each other for a bit, now. Moving it to F7 just shuts down the dialogue between Generalites because it's pretty obvious that many are not about to venture into F7. I recognise that that thread in particular was getting "off-topic" and spammy (and I claim partial responsibility for that), but I think more leniency should be given for those types of threads.

Who knows, it might even lessen the burden Mods have, seeing as such a move might make us more chillaxed, and less likely to... er.. do this, really. :p

Thanks, Kat.

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Mousebumples
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mousebumples » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:36 pm

NERVUN wrote:1. Social threads will be back in General as long as they lead to some kind of discussion OR are aimed at General. What this means is that silly news, what's your favorite X, and the like will be acceptable as well as threads like Sexiest NSG'er. Threads that are chat threads (Such as the Bistro), game threads, rate the X above, and RPs will still call F7 home. We're going to try to use the OP's original placement as a guide, but we still might move threads that obviously seem out of place.

I'm not a big frequenter of General - I get enough of arguing/debate in the WA, personally - but I'll probably try to check out some of these social threads when the "switch" happens. F7 is ... not for me, personally, but I think this might be an opportunity to expand my own horizons, so far as the NS boards go.

Anyhow, this is a roundabout way of thanking the mod team for their work on this matter.
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Saint Jade IV
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Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:55 pm

I have read this thread, and the previous discussion with great interest, since I have noticed the change in General from the Jolt forums. While I never participated much in the social threads back there, I found that overall, posters tended to be nicer to newer members, perhaps as a result of the experiences that these threads helped facilitate. For instance, the continual comments about how you might ardently disagree with someone's politics, but appreciate the same music, or same pizza topping etc, so it makes you less inclined to be snippy. I think that as we discover these sorts of things about ourselves, it makes us more accepting of newcomers as a community, since you never know what you might have in common with them.

I'd really like to thank the mods for really and thoughtfully considering this thread, particularly in the face of a lot of criticism from pessimistic posters (not without reason sometimes), and trying something new. It really shows what a great community NSG is IMHO, that people do get listened to and that we can effect change.

I'm also looking forward in anticipation to perhaps getting a sense of the old NSG that I loved so much. Perhaps some of those newer posters, who have only been with us since these forums, might gain an understanding of why the old guard (so to speak) was so incensed at the change in culture. NSG had a great thing going, and I think the forum split kind of broke that a little, which created a change in the cultural landscape of the forum.

I'm really glad about some of the changes I guess is what I'm trying to say :D
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Ardchoille
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Founded: Apr 18, 2004
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ardchoille » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:03 pm

Galloism wrote: Some arguments need answering with a surprise visual demonstration of why that's a really bad idea. Restricting images to spoiler tags means half of the readers won't see it. That spoils the rebut.


On the other hand, you can use the "spoiler=Whatever" coding to make your spoiler tag part of the reply and increase the surprise visual impact. In a post, it looks like this:
Image

.
.
.
(not really, Gallo)
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Wiztopia
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Founded: Mar 05, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Wiztopia » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:07 pm

I honestly don't see the complaint against the necroposting one. 3 months is great and some discussion could start again from some of those threads. The only thing I disagree about it is the one about posting in an old thread about something that commonly comes up. For instance there was a huge gap between abortion threads awhile back so if somebody bumps an older one instead of creating a new thread then what's the harm in that?

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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:12 pm

Wiztopia wrote:I honestly don't see the complaint against the necroposting one. 3 months is great and some discussion could start again from some of those threads. The only thing I disagree about it is the one about posting in an old thread about something that commonly comes up. For instance there was a huge gap between abortion threads awhile back so if somebody bumps an older one instead of creating a new thread then what's the harm in that?

Because chances are we will have one going on at that point in time.

That pretty much why we're suggesting this, because General is fast paced and we do need to keep some order amoung the dead. :p

The other reason is that, with the thread topics that come up constantly, chances are the point is one that could be used to start a brand new thread.
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Maurepas
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36403
Founded: Apr 17, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Maurepas » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:55 pm

I don't know if this is considered off topic or anything...but, I had no idea that pictures weren't allowed in General, I've been posting those smileys from GM and other places forever, :blink:

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Maurepas
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36403
Founded: Apr 17, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Maurepas » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:58 pm

[violet] wrote:
Muravyets wrote:But it did not occur to you that you should have not posted at all until you had time?

You must know that the details of your working day are not visible to the posters in NS, so I'm not exactly clear on why you're citing them as an explanation of your actions in NS now

I would be very happy if no-one was this rude to a mod again.

I was unaware "rudeness" towards the mods was against the rules. And she makes a good point beyond that. Look, I have nothing against moderation, nor Nervun in anyway. I like both NERVUN and most of the moderating team, I'm friends with them both here and off-site.

But, I would say treating the moderating team as some sort of police force, and asking people to not to be rude to them specifically as opposed to the forum as a whole, as in asking people to treat them differently than the rest of the forum at large is a step in the wrong direction, exactly the opposite image that should be attached to the NS Moderating team.
Last edited by Maurepas on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Posts: 54073
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:01 am

NERVUN wrote:
Audentias Gryphus wrote:It's a poor use of an English expression, but I take it he means it probably won't turn out as well as projected.

:palm: I mean, what, exactly, about the gravedig rules does he (and the sheep ;) ) have doubts about. Is this something about the rules as written? Somethat it can be changed? What?

Remember folks, these are our proposals, they're not written in stone, yet. If people are happy with them, we'll be glad to make the changes, but if you think they can be improved upon PLEASE speak up about it!


Well, I think the mods will be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot(or hoove) with the proposed gravedig rules. My guess is that they will spend a lot of time explaining the rule again and again to users because it's quite subtle and grey area and will leave people unhappy because they won't see the reasons why thread A is locked after a gravedig and thread B is allowed a continued existance. My personal suggestion is to KISS (keep it simple, s****d) and not allow gravedigs at all (basically, the way it is now?).
Last edited by The Blaatschapen on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Bleeding Roses
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Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby The Bleeding Roses » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:09 am

How about that request do unsticky the player information thread considering it's the same nonsense as the introduction thread?
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