[D] Voice of Mod on RMBs

[Quebecshire]

Sorry, but I'm going to be the no-fun guy / Karen here.

I get that a couple days ago the mods were being a bit active/chatty on the Roses Without Thorns RMB to diffuse/de-escalate things there originally, but the voice of mod banter was going on more casually yesterday well after that was done [1] [2] [3] [4]... and look, I get it's innocuous content, obviously, but here's why I'm bothering to post about this,

1. I think RMB activity during a raid is a pretty big part of most occupations, it seems to always be a source of activity (and this has been true for the occupations I've led), and we have rules allowing mods to engage in R/D, so they should just do so as themselves.

1a. If mods aren't allowed to engage with R/D operations by piling from a badged nation, I don't see why anonymous voice of mod use on raids beyond mod duties would be kosher.

2. If I was a native player and saw the moderator account bantering with the raiders I'd probably be a little upset about that, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

3. I think the giving-out-custom-pretitles beyond what players can set on their own nations is weird because even though it's ild it is special treatment, and re: 2 again if I was a native seeing the mods engage with the occupiers like this I'd find it unfair.

I don't think it necessitates any punishment or apology or whatever, but I do think it's unprofessional and shouldn't be a regular or continuing thing.

[The Kharkivan Cossacks]

It's to note that it has happened plenty of times in TRR, so it alone is not a two-off.
Granted, I dont know of it being in any raided regions before, but the assumption is its a simple instance.
I can understand it should not be a regular per say, but its harmless as far as I can see.

[The Ambis]

The mods were also chatting with natives, and I believe some of them got pretitles. If they were there, they were chatting. I think this is silly to bring up

[One Small Island]

I generally agree with Quebec on this one.

I have no problem with moderators/admins being involved in R/D on either side of the spectrum, but I do have a problem with them doing so from the Voice of Mod account, which should really only be used for actual moderator business.

[Nova Vinelandia]

I can see the argument for why the giving out of custom pretitles should not have happened (though again to note it wasn't preferential per se they just handed it out to whoever asked) but the idea that in this case it's specifically inappropriate because it was tangentially related to R/D (as in, it happened in a region under occupation) is ridiculous, and the arguments about "fairness to the natives" is silly, esp when, as Ambis said, plenty of natives got in on the banter. Furthermore:

It's to note that it has happened plenty of times in TRR, so it alone is not a two-off.

So why (outside of the pretitles) is it actually a problem this time around but not then. Giant double standard. If you wanna talk about why it's not kosher to use VOM for non-mod duties, then talk about it in general. It's weird to make this argument by singling out and driving so hard into the Raid context of this. Either they are allowed, or not allowed to chat with players using VOM. Point blank. Personally I'm in favour of just, chilling out a bit and letting the mods have some fun on occasion? I don't see the real actual harm done by this.

[The Kharkivan Cossacks]

It's to note that it has happened plenty of times in TRR, so it alone is not a two-off.

So why (outside of the pretitles) is it actually a problem this time around but not then. Giant double standard. If you wanna talk about why it's not kosher to use VOM for non-mod duties, then talk about it in general. It's weird to make this argument by singling out and driving so hard into the Raid context of this. Either they are allowed, or not allowed to chat with players using VOM. Point blank. Personally I'm in favour of just, chilling out a bit and letting the mods have some fun on occasion? I don't see the real actual harm done by this.

I'm not saying we shouldn't, where did I say we shouldn't.
I was saying it's not an abnormality. Simple.

[Quebecshire]

So why (outside of the pretitles) is it actually a problem this time around but not then. Giant double standard. If you wanna talk about why it's not kosher to use VOM for non-mod duties, then talk about it in general. It's weird to make this argument by singling out and driving so hard into the Raid context of this. Either they are allowed, or not allowed to chat with players using VOM. Point blank. Personally I'm in favour of just, chilling out a bit and letting the mods have some fun on occasion? I don't see the real actual harm done by this.

Two things.

1. I don't follow the TRR RMB, so I don't know how frequent it is there.

2. I specifically mention raids because they often run with high emotions and player intensity - as I explained in my post, how do you think players on the side not bantering/getting pretitles from the mods feel? One or two people being okay with it here is immaterial to the broader issue. If, for example, Sedgistan had used Voice of Mod to banter on the Solidarity RMB and hand out custom pretitles to the ROs, people would have found that really objectionable. Rightfully so.

I generally agree with Quebec on this one.

I have no problem with moderators/admins being involved in R/D on either side of the spectrum, but I do have a problem with them doing so from the Voice of Mod account, which should really only be used for actual moderator business.

Ideally this would be the case, yeah - diffusing situations or w/e is one thing but prolonged chatting should really be done as player nations, and the pretitle thing is silly.

[One Small Island]

I can see the argument for why the giving out of custom pretitles should not have happened (though again to note it wasn't preferential per se they just handed it out to whoever asked) but the idea that in this case it's specifically inappropriate because it was tangentially related to R/D (as in, it happened in a region under occupation) is ridiculous, and the arguments about "fairness to the natives" is silly, esp when, as Ambis said, plenty of natives got in on the banter. Furthermore:

It's to note that it has happened plenty of times in TRR, so it alone is not a two-off.

So why (outside of the pretitles) is it actually a problem this time around but not then. Giant double standard. If you wanna talk about why it's not kosher to use VOM for non-mod duties, then talk about it in general. It's weird to make this argument by singling out and driving so hard into the Raid context of this. Either they are allowed, or not allowed to chat with players using VOM. Point blank. Personally I'm in favour of just, chilling out a bit and letting the mods have some fun on occasion? I don't see the real actual harm done by this.

I get that you have no empathy for the distress that you cause other players when you raid them, but that doesn't mean we all share that point of view.

It is hard enough to watch something you've put time and energy into building being burned down by a bunch of people who only want to laugh at the pain you're experiencing, but seeing the official moderation account join in on it is something else altogether.

That is the difference between the TRR RMB and a raided region's RMB. The people who have chosen to build a community in TRR have specifically opted into their situation, the victims of raids have not.

But for the record, I do not believe that the voice of mod account should be used for joking around on TRRs RMB either. If mods want to joke around with people they should use their personal accounts.

[Nova Vinelandia]

So why (outside of the pretitles) is it actually a problem this time around but not then. Giant double standard. If you wanna talk about why it's not kosher to use VOM for non-mod duties, then talk about it in general. It's weird to make this argument by singling out and driving so hard into the Raid context of this. Either they are allowed, or not allowed to chat with players using VOM. Point blank. Personally I'm in favour of just, chilling out a bit and letting the mods have some fun on occasion? I don't see the real actual harm done by this.

I'm not saying we shouldn't, where did I say we shouldn't.
I was saying it's not an abnormality. Simple.

I think you misunderstood. I was quoting you as evidence. My response was to Quebec (the OP). Sorry for any confusion if I made that unclear.

[Nova Vinelandia]

I get that you have no empathy for the distress that you cause other players when you raid them, but that doesn't mean we all share that point of view.

It is hard enough to watch something you've put time and energy into building being burned down by a bunch of people who only want to laugh at the pain you're experiencing, but seeing the official moderation account join in on it is something else altogether.

This is a weird as hell way to talk about utilising an intended game mechanic to play the game as was designed and desired by the admins. No one should be feeling that distressed over a video game, especially one they opted in to by being a frontier in the first place. And this perspective comes from someone who's had regions I care about raided. I don't appreciate the brush you're painting me with here.

[One Small Island]

I get that you have no empathy for the distress that you cause other players when you raid them, but that doesn't mean we all share that point of view.

It is hard enough to watch something you've put time and energy into building being burned down by a bunch of people who only want to laugh at the pain you're experiencing, but seeing the official moderation account join in on it is something else altogether.

This is a weird as hell way to talk about utilising an intended game mechanic to play the game as was designed and desired by the admins. No one should be feeling that distressed over a video game, especially one they opted in to by being a frontier in the first place. And this perspective comes from someone who's had regions I care about raided. I don't appreciate the brush you're painting me with here.

The fact that people get attached to things they shouldn't is a well established psychological phenomenon, and has been observed for forever. From pet rocks, to neopets, to tamogotchi, to roombas... people will get attached to anything that they can have good memories, or bad memories, with. It's why some people have 'lucky charms', or others have particular rituals before they do things.

I also understand that you don't like being confronted with the reality that your actions have consequences and effects on other people, but they do. I'm not trying to stop you from doing those things, I just don't think that an official staff account should also be doing them.

[The Phantom Gambler]

This is a weird as hell way to talk about utilising an intended game mechanic to play the game as was designed and desired by the admins. No one should be feeling that distressed over a video game, especially one they opted in to by being a frontier in the first place. And this perspective comes from someone who's had regions I care about raided. I don't appreciate the brush you're painting me with here.

The fact that people get attached to things they shouldn't is a well established psychological phenomenon, and has been observed for forever. From pet rocks, to neopets, to tamogotchi, to roombas... people will get attached to anything that they can have good memories, or bad memories, with. It's why some people have 'lucky charms', or others have particular rituals before they do things.

I also understand that you don't like being confronted with the reality that your actions have consequences and effects on other people, but they do. I'm not trying to stop you from doing those things, I just don't think that an official staff account should also be doing them.

I don't think speaking on the RMB of a raided region constitutes raiding lmao

[One Small Island]

The fact that people get attached to things they shouldn't is a well established psychological phenomenon, and has been observed for forever. From pet rocks, to neopets, to tamogotchi, to roombas... people will get attached to anything that they can have good memories, or bad memories, with. It's why some people have 'lucky charms', or others have particular rituals before they do things.

I also understand that you don't like being confronted with the reality that your actions have consequences and effects on other people, but they do. I'm not trying to stop you from doing those things, I just don't think that an official staff account should also be doing them.

I don't think speaking on the RMB of a raided region constitutes raiding lmao

Nope, and I have not claimed that it does. Your strawman can go in the pile. I also have no problem with Voice of Mod speaking on the RMB of aa raided region, provided it's doing official staff business. The Official Staff Account should only be used for Official Staff Business, the laughing and joking around can happen on the personal accounts of staff members.

[The Phantom Gambler]

I don't think speaking on the RMB of a raided region constitutes raiding lmao

Nope, and I have not claimed that it does. Your strawman can go in the pile. I also have no problem with Voice of Mod speaking on the RMB of aa raided region, provided it's doing official staff business. The Official Staff Account should only be used for Official Staff Business, the laughing and joking around can happen on the personal accounts of staff members.

at this point we're arguing on how to fold table napkins for an event. In the end it really doesn't matter.

[One Small Island]

Nope, and I have not claimed that it does. Your strawman can go in the pile. I also have no problem with Voice of Mod speaking on the RMB of aa raided region, provided it's doing official staff business. The Official Staff Account should only be used for Official Staff Business, the laughing and joking around can happen on the personal accounts of staff members.

at this point we're arguing on how to fold table napkins for an event. In the end it really doesn't matter.

What we're arguing here is whether or not the official staff account should be used for things other than official staff business, and I don't think it should.

and if you've never worked in event planning you probably don't realize that more formal events have different rules for their napkins than more celebratory events do

[Dimetrodon Empire]

Honestly, I like it when moderators talk and have fun with random groups of players. It makes them a lot more relatable.

Even if it is done through a VoM RMB post.

[Omnicontrol]

I don't see how this makes any sense. Mod-edited pretitles were given to both raiders and natives, and it's not like it influences the game. It's a cool tidbit, and that's about it.

As for the natives disliking it, come on. They know how to use the forums. If they didn't like it, they would've complained.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

I don't see how this makes any sense. Mod-edited pretitles were given to both raiders and natives, and it's not like it influences the game. It's a cool tidbit, and that's about it.

As for the natives disliking it, come on. They know how to use the forums. If they didn't like it, they would've complained.

Acknowledging raiders and giving them custom pre-titles is probably all this is about.

It isn't about native opinions, natives being offended, or anything else other than "Raiders deserve no recognition anywhere."

Honestly, if a moderator diffused a heated situation between groups of players, then that is a good thing. And should be considered as such regardless of GP alignment.

[Azatara]

As long as mods make it clear they aren't there to action on something specific (i.e., they don't mix their conversations and their moderator-related actions) and they aren't breaking the rules themselves (duh) then I can't see any reason to deny them the privilege; I rather enjoyed it myself when they showed up on the RW0T board. It's probably beneficial to them, too, what with all the stuff they have to deal with on a regular basis.

[Nova Vinelandia]

This is a weird as hell way to talk about utilising an intended game mechanic to play the game as was designed and desired by the admins. No one should be feeling that distressed over a video game, especially one they opted in to by being a frontier in the first place. And this perspective comes from someone who's had regions I care about raided. I don't appreciate the brush you're painting me with here.

The fact that people get attached to things they shouldn't is a well established psychological phenomenon, and has been observed for forever. From pet rocks, to neopets, to tamogotchi, to roombas... people will get attached to anything that they can have good memories, or bad memories, with. It's why some people have 'lucky charms', or others have particular rituals before they do things.

I also understand that you don't like being confronted with the reality that your actions have consequences and effects on other people, but they do. I'm not trying to stop you from doing those things, I just don't think that an official staff account should also be doing them.

Your insistence on doubling down on your statement calling me empathy-less (need I remind you this is Moderation, we are talking to each other as the humans behind the screen here) is baffling to me. This feels like bad faith. I don't see why that statement was necessary. Again, I've been on the receiving end of raids I know what it's like to get the other end of the stick. I get games can make you sad when you loose. But it's just a game and people can get over being momentarily sad. I don't think the fact a few people could have "emotions running high" is a valid reason to say it's specifically wrong for mods to banter just in this instance. That's it. That's my whole ass point. And if you wanted to argue the contrary you could have done so with making it an Ad-Hominem at me. We could have had a civil discussion but instead I'm here defending my character against you. And to top it all off you don't even oppose my premise, you say yourself you don't think mods should ever banter using VOM. So the raiding is not even relevant to you point. I reiterate that your statement is really inappropriate here and I'm disappointed.

[Quebecshire]

I think a lot of people are missing my point. It isn’t even about these natives specifically. It’s about how the mods really should probably keep their official tools to official uses (and extensions thereof like diffusing a situation) regardless of which side of R/D is doing whatever. Like I said above I think it would be just as reasonable to object to an instance of this happening on an operation I or other defenders might lead.

The pretitles specifically isn’t about recognition. It’s a feature that players cannot access themselves. Whether it seems trivial or not, mods handing those out to select players at a select gameplay event (ie a raid of any kind) is unfair. As far as I know the enlarged pretitles have otherwise always been exclusive to staff themselves or as a reward for things like designing icons where it might have been offered. It should either remain staff specific like that or be freely accessible - the latter is obviously not going to happen for spam reasons.

You can respond "Well I find it funny" but that doesn’t change that it’s functionally diluting official/professional tools and still a preferential gift in the pre titles case.

[Starman of Stardust]

I am inclined to agree with Quebec that it would be best in terms of professionality to avoid using official Moderator tools for casual chatting, especially to (indirectly) participate in situations such as raids which are likely to cause strong emotions. While in this specific case I don't think a retraction / apology is particularly necessary, it should not set a precedent that this sort of thing will occur in future circumstances.

[Reploid Productions]

Apologies for the slow response time on this one, given I was the accidental instigator, figured it would probably be best that I tackle this one.

Quebec is absolutely right; while a little bit of banter (which is where things started, some banter to help ease some of the tension following an ominous looming since there were multiple flaming reports resulting from the raid) is one thing, we let ourselves get entirely too carried away in this case, particularly on the pretitle shenanigans. That is largely my bad, I ought to have put the brakes on things before we got so carried away.

I'm presently going through the mod logs to revert any remaining overlong pretitles, and all I can really say is we'll keep it in mind going forward. I don't think there needs to be or should be a blanket ban on non-official-business VoM posts; as some have already noted it can help make moderation less of a faceless scary thing, and a little occasional chatter like that can also help diffuse otherwise tense situations before they can escalate or continue. But in this specific instance, we definitely ran a wee bit too far with it.

EDIT TO ADD: Okay, should all be reverted now.

[Tinhampton]

I'm extremely late, which means that inflation has devalued my two nominal cents into 0.00000001 real cents - but I like to think that Voice of Mod tomfoolery should be actively encouraged, so long as it doesn't devolve into August 2021 [violet] levels of taunting, out-and-out rulebreaking, or destroying things that people have worked towards. If that means poking in to say hi on a random region's RMB or suddenly turning a famous WA Delegate's pretitle into an entire paragraph, I'm not sure that would be much of a problem. If that means deliberately defacing WFEs, randomly punishing players or driving regional stakeholders up the metaphorical wall, I'd rather not.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I'm not upset that the pre-titles have been rolled back, but I do expect that now that we've established the precedent that there actually are unwritten guidelines on who gets to have long pre-titles, I fully expect these rules to be written and posted. In lieu of that, I expect all existing mod-edited pre-titles to be rolled back as well, because there is nothing fundamentally different between this situation and theirs.

Up until this point, having your pre-title edited by a mod was an arbitrary, whimsical phenomenon that could happen to anyone for any reason, with no justification needed. However, now that there's been a complaint and a rollback, it's no longer arbitrary. Please make it clear who "deserves" mod-edited pre-titles, or remove them all.