[Discussion] Illegal Activity in Roleplay reports

[Oateria]

So I just wandered in here and I have no real context to the situation, so if I'm incorrect about any of this please correct me.

When I saw the original post in question it was almost immidiately obvious to me that the LWU Cigarette thing was very much a joke from the get-go. I mean, it's a cigarette ad targeted for kids which already is absurd, but on top of that it's for a roleplay battle between regions. As well as this it has very specific wording: "mommy" "daddy" and "hey kids", using a "z" instead of an s for plurals and the flavors/coloring of the box should make it absolutely clear that this is a joke.

Beyond this, NationStates rules (IIRC, I'm not sure if it's still the case) require that you be 13 before making an account. Any teenager would be past the stage where this "advertisement" for a product that doesn't exist would be effective to get them to want to buy tobacco. And if a teenager who did end up smoking underage used NationStates where do you think they'd actually be convinced to try it, their friends or an actual Phillip Morris ad, or a joke post on a mid-range browser game's roleplay forum that is obviously geared more towards eight year olds than anyone who this site considers its demographic?

It's been said before in this thread and the original appeal thread as well but a decent amount of nations IRL don't have smoking age minimums, just as long as you aren't purchasing it. The post, even if taken seriously as some attempt by a Phillip Morris PR guy to get some kids on the internet to smoke their cigarettes, doesn't violate law in Australia (Where NS servers are based) because it specifically says "ask your mommy and daddy to buy them for you".

Personally I think the warning was dumb and the fact that it was upheld and the question of "So underage smoking isn't allowed but slave trade threads are" was met with a warning instead of a friendly "No, those aren't the same thing because it's in a full on RP instead of a GP thread" is ridiculous.

This poses a better question: Are we no longer allowed to talk about smoking Marijuana because it's federally illegal in the US? A "plethora of countries" ban gay sex under the death penalty, are LGBT NS users violating the rules simply by acknowledging that they are LGBT? Around 1/8 humans aren't allowed to talk about Tiananmen square, is referencing it in a GP thread encouraging illegal activity?

[Sedgistan]

So, what you are saying is that posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a roleplay thread, will always be 100% legal.
But, posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a gameplay raid report thread, may not be legal.

Last time I checked, R/D raids weren't any more real than a roleplay nation. Both are told from an IC and RP point of view.

Gameplay is not a pure roleplay forum like those under the "National and International Roleplaying" section. Otherwise we'd have separate IC and OOC threads, and OPs would be allowed to have Open/Closed threads, and ask for posts/players they dislike removed from their threads. Nor is Gameplay NSG, because there is obviously an element of roleplay to it, and that's long been accepted for things like the level of IC "smack talk" permitted. Gameplay is a halfway house, and working out that halfway point is what the team is discussing. It hasn't come up on this area of the rules before, and there are obviously different opinions within the team, hence the time it is taking.

Beyond this, NationStates rules (IIRC, I'm not sure if it's still the case) require that you be 13 before making an account.

Incorrect. That's only to enter the forums.

This poses a better question: Are we no longer allowed to talk about smoking Marijuana because it's federally illegal in the US? A "plethora of countries" ban gay sex under the death penalty, are LGBT NS users violating the rules simply by acknowledging that they are LGBT? Around 1/8 humans aren't allowed to talk about Tiananmen square, is referencing it in a GP thread encouraging illegal activity?

You are recommended to read this and this, both linked to from the Illegal Activities section of the One Stop Rules Shop. They answer your questions. Yes, they could do with being set out better in the OSRS thread. That's on our agenda too.

[Muhammad Musa Asteorra]

Gameplay is not a pure roleplay forum like those under the "National and International Roleplaying" section. Otherwise we'd have separate IC and OOC threads, and OPs would be allowed to have Open/Closed threads, and ask for posts/players they dislike removed from their threads. Nor is Gameplay NSG, because there is obviously an element of roleplay to it, and that's long been accepted for things like the level of IC "smack talk" permitted. Gameplay is a halfway house, and working out that halfway point is what the team is discussing. It hasn't come up on this area of the rules before, and there are obviously different opinions within the team, hence the time it is taking.

This may be best in a new thread but I wonder if it would be a good idea to alter that? Like, the IC/OOC divide has been a pretty big issue and I think it might be a good idea to allow IC/OOC threads while not allowing threads to get locked or giving thread ownership. Still a mix between RP and Non-RP but it would also help when we have people flaming or whatever that they claim is "in character", yknow? Just a thought, not a mod so I'm not sure the logistics on how that would be implemented and what not.

[Oateria]

So, what you are saying is that posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a roleplay thread, will always be 100% legal.
But, posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a gameplay raid report thread, may not be legal.

Last time I checked, R/D raids weren't any more real than a roleplay nation. Both are told from an IC and RP point of view.

Gameplay is not a pure roleplay forum like those under the "National and International Roleplaying" section. Otherwise we'd have separate IC and OOC threads, and OPs would be allowed to have Open/Closed threads, and ask for posts/players they dislike removed from their threads. Nor is Gameplay NSG, because there is obviously an element of roleplay to it, and that's long been accepted for things like the level of IC "smack talk" permitted. Gameplay is a halfway house, and working out that halfway point is what the team is discussing. It hasn't come up on this area of the rules before, and there are obviously different opinions within the team, hence the time it is taking.

Beyond this, NationStates rules (IIRC, I'm not sure if it's still the case) require that you be 13 before making an account.

Incorrect. That's only to enter the forums.

This poses a better question: Are we no longer allowed to talk about smoking Marijuana because it's federally illegal in the US? A "plethora of countries" ban gay sex under the death penalty, are LGBT NS users violating the rules simply by acknowledging that they are LGBT? Around 1/8 humans aren't allowed to talk about Tiananmen square, is referencing it in a GP thread encouraging illegal activity?

You are recommended to read this and this, both linked to from the Illegal Activities section of the One Stop Rules Shop. They answer your questions. Yes, they could do with being set out better in the OSRS thread. That's on our agenda too.

Thank you for your response, I think I understand the situation a bit more because of this.

But with respect to Violet's response to the two posts I think I'm fully sure this never should have been a question to if it was a warning or not. Chief Big Dog never made any references to smoking underage IRL, never gave any tips of advice in it that would actually be helpful to a minor, and considering minor possession of tobacco products is legal in Canada, Australia and a not small amount of US states I'd say a warning should never have been on the table, especially with the part about differentiating a verbal warning and a forum warning. What CBD got warned for is stuff that is (dipping slightly into politics here) regulatory that would go through the FTC in the US, and even with Juul playing fast and loose with advertising to kids took them a couple years to get anything else than a "please don't do that". A warning was overreacting.

I also think the assassination contracting region should be fine as long as they don't give actual tips on how to hire hitmen.

[The North Polish Union]

So, what you are saying is that posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a roleplay thread, will always be 100% legal.
But, posting about a children's-focused cigarette brand and asking children to get their parent's to buy it for them, in a gameplay raid report thread, may not be legal.

Last time I checked, R/D raids weren't any more real than a roleplay nation. Both are told from an IC and RP point of view.

Gameplay is not a pure roleplay forum like those under the "National and International Roleplaying" section. Otherwise we'd have separate IC and OOC threads, and OPs would be allowed to have Open/Closed threads, and ask for posts/players they dislike removed from their threads. Nor is Gameplay NSG, because there is obviously an element of roleplay to it, and that's long been accepted for things like the level of IC "smack talk" permitted. Gameplay is a halfway house, and working out that halfway point is what the team is discussing. It hasn't come up on this area of the rules before, and there are obviously different opinions within the team, hence the time it is taking.

May I ask how any ruling might impact the WA?

Similar to GP, the WA has no separate IC/OOC or open/closed threads, not can OPs request post removals. At the same time the WA is also not NSG, and also has an element of roleplay that permits IC jabs at opposing delegations.

Furthermore, the WA has a long history of regularly dealing with RL illegal activities, with users sometimes even explicitly and openly arguing for legalization such activities.

Indeed, as an example the WA is the only aera of the game where disucssions on ending prohibitions of child pornography seem to be permitted, as I have to assume that even a GE&T thread for child porn would be nuked as quickly as possible. The WAers may now even openly RP drug possession, a crime in many places, without fear of a moderation crackdown, even without the RP conventions of N&IR.

Both GP and the WA fall into a style of RP that's not quite like N&IR but is definitely not the pure-OOC of NSG. I hope we are not potentially to be treated drastically differently from N&IR because we lack a certain set of RP conventions.

[Sedgistan]

May I ask how any ruling might impact the WA?

Not really. I cannot tell you how a non-existent ruling would apply to somewhere else.

The WA is different too, and has differences between its chambers too. The GA is simpler to differentiate because its legislation is inherently IC.

[Santheres]

Moderators to RP community: Fear not fair citizen, no harm shall befall you. I swear it upon my honor

Moderators to GP Community: the beatings will continue until morale improves you dirty criminals

Make that "RP moderators to RP community" and you're golden.

Besides, I'm pretty certain that if I made a promise like that to the GP community, their first reaction would be "Santh who?"

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Moderators to RP community: Fear not fair citizen, no harm shall befall you. I swear it upon my honor

Moderators to GP Community: the beatings will continue until morale improves you dirty criminals

Make that "RP moderators to RP community" and you're golden.

Besides, I'm pretty certain that if I made a promise like that to the GP community, their first reaction would be "Santh who?"

You hurt me, former Mr. Minty.

[The Biden Cult]

Do any of you believe this thread should be ruled on and/or locked. We have hit four pages worth of discussion which is not normal on Moderation, and still haven’t yet come to a ruling

[Shazbotdom]

Do any of you believe this thread should be ruled on and/or locked. We have hit four pages worth of discussion which is not normal on Moderation, and still haven’t yet come to a ruling

Because the Mod Team is having a discussion behind the scenes. It does take time.

[The Biden Cult]

Do any of you believe this thread should be ruled on and/or locked. We have hit four pages worth of discussion which is not normal on Moderation, and still haven’t yet come to a ruling

Because the Mod Team is having a discussion behind the scenes. It does take time.

I suppose that’s fair. I personally believe this isn’t actionable but I’m not a moderator or WA member so it doesn’t matter I guess

[United Calanworie]

Because the Mod Team is having a discussion behind the scenes. It does take time.

I suppose that’s fair. I personally believe this isn’t actionable but I’m not a moderator or WA member so it doesn’t matter I guess

The part I bolded is the only relevant part of this post. You are not a moderator, and you are not contributing to the discussion at hand. Either choose to contribute, or don't post.

[Reventus Koth]

No - the appeal is neither denied or granted at this time; Sedge and CG are simply saying that the appeal for this will be handled and announced together with the appeal on the LWU issue, which will be very soon.

It's been 4 days since this post. I get that there's still discussion being had, but can we at least get an updated estimate on when you'll be done so I'm not constantly expecting this to be resolved any day now?

[Davelands]

So, does this reply in another thread (which took 13 hours to resolve) answer the issue that we have been waiting for in here for 2 weeks? (emphasis in the quote is mine)

It would have to be spoilered as it's way too long. It's probably longer than 800 characters, which means it won't fit. It's obviously fictional and based on Breaking Bad, so I'm not seeing a problem with the content, only with its placement. Post it in a Factbook and put the link in your sig.

From: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=527738

[EDIT]
So, to recap: A signature that will appear in every post that person makes that includes fictional references to drugs, bombs, kidnapping, and suicide is acceptable while a post or two that references a fictional cigarette and asks kids to ask their parents to buy said fictional product has resulted in warnings and locked threads.

[Twilight Imperium]

Look, if anyone's confused about what is and isn't allowed and where the line will end up laying, I have good news for you! We will find out shortly after the mods do

Now on to the mildly irresponsible speculation: most GP stuff is fine because it's memes and RP, but tobacco ads aimed at children - regardless of how obviously and blatantly satirical they are, are the sorts of things that make moral busybodies get twitchy and thus the site has to be more careful with them. A picture is worth a thousand shitposts, after all.

[RiderSyl]

tobacco ads aimed at children - regardless of how obviously and blatantly satirical they are, are the sorts of things that make moral busybodies get twitchy and thus the site has to be more careful with them.

except that the site has sufficiently covered its butt in cases like this. See these three bits from the Terms & Conditions:

You may submit content to NationStates.net so long as it is not obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, or defamatory, does not invade the privacy or infringe the intellectual property of a third party, and does not constitute "spam." You may not use a false e-mail address, impersonate any person or entity, attempt to "hack" the site or another player's account, nor otherwise mislead as to the origin of information.

Should you breach these terms and conditions you agree to indemnify NationStates, Max Barry, and any and all employees, agents, administrators, moderators, volunteers, and affiliates associated with NationStates.net from and against any and all third party claims, demands, liabilities, costs or expenses, including reasonable legal fees.

You understand that this web site contains satiric content, and presents views and opinions exaggerated for the purposes of parody.

so in the arena of mildly irresponsible speculation, I don't think that's what the issue is here. If it is the issue, then I don't understand why those bits in the Terms & Conditions aren't enough to shield the site from any overzealous moral crusaders.

[Scardino]

Syl is right. The primary issue here is a new interpretation of rules based on delicate and subjective sensibilities. The issue of the original posts was not illegal in most of the world, wasn’t actually advocating anything illegal, was obviously non-serious, and had no real world implications. Furthermore, there is extensive precedent that this is not actionable in any way, shape, or form. The question is whether this novel interpretation of the rules will continue to disrupt gameplay moving forward.

[Davelands]

Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting the next "We're still throwing chairs" missive.

[Hermes Express 123]

Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting the next "We're still throwing chairs" missive.

Same! Honesty though, I would be good if you the Mods could get everyone a proper response and answer in a day or two. I get they have other stuff to do on NS, plus an IRL life, but still. It takes forever.

[Twilight Imperium]

except that the site has sufficiently covered its butt in cases like this. See these three bits from the Terms & Conditions:
so in the arena of mildly irresponsible speculation, I don't think that's what the issue is here. If it is the issue, then I don't understand why those bits in the Terms & Conditions aren't enough to shield the site from any overzealous moral crusaders.

I mean, I agree that whoever would freak out at the site wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, but since when has that ever stopped a moral crusader with a bone to pick? There's a lot of trouble that can be caused even without needing to win court cases. They're probably just re-calibrating in the wake of all this brouhaha and adding a couple extra days cause Gameplay decided to get cute about it lmao.

Alternately, the infracting mod just watched one too many PSAs that day and clutched their pearls right off their neck, it's not like I actually know.

[Esternial]

An update on this topic:

The team has been reviewing this wider topic internally over the last week. While no Final Appeals were submitted by the players, we have decided on this occasion to rescind the warnings issued to Scardino and Chef Big Dog. We feel the "Seeking Help with Illegal Activities" is not sufficiently defined within the One Stop Rules Shop thread itself, and will be updating that imminently to reflect the clarifications in posts linked from it. The regional threads for The Black Hawks and The Brotherhood of Malice have also been unlocked.

We still have to reach a decision about what should be/have been done about the content of such posts and our policy going forward, so pending any consensus there we will not be making any further changes to existing policy (beyond clarification in the OSRS).

Going forward we would like to ask you all to keep in mind satire doesn't always track well in text and consider how it may appear to Random Joe who isn't familiar with NSGP's culture and quirks. And also remember that there are impressionable young teenagers around.

[Reventus Koth]

It's a fucking Christmas miracle. Thanks for unlocking the threads while you continue to deliberate.

[Ghazi-Rahman Ammar ibn Rigel Al-Asteorra]

Going forward we would like to ask you all to keep in mind satire doesn't always track well in text and consider how it may appear to Random Joe who isn't familiar with NSGP's culture and quirks. And also remember that there are impressionable young teenagers around.

With this in mind would it be helpful if satire contained a tone indicator in the post? Such as /s to indicate it isn't serious? Considering it's two extra keypresses I'm sure it's not that big a deal to add at the bottom of a post and I wonder if the mods would find it helpful or not?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Going forward we would like to ask you all to keep in mind satire doesn't always track well in text and consider how it may appear to Random Joe who isn't familiar with NSGP's culture and quirks. And also remember that there are impressionable young teenagers around.

Thanks overall, and I always appreciate rules clarifications in the OSRS - but this section sits a little oddly with me. NSGP "weird culture and quirks" is like, allowing lots of flaming and baiting no other forum would because we call it "IC" or "acceptable boasting and taunting between factions" and frankly I'd *agree* with moderating that a little more and not letting us be the toxic special stepchild.

"Satire or roleplay/theming around illegal activty" is - have you been to GE&T? Like at all? Looked at issues, which the site serves to all sorts of children, where you can encourage the promotion of tobacco products to kids? What about the impressionable young kids in NSG being told in Moderation rulings that "racism isn't against the rules as long as you're not being a dick to other players in expressing it?"

If there's ways where GP is different on this site, satire and a little theming are not examples of it, imho. LWU's postings were literally in lockstep with issues, the core of this site. This sentence comes off as a way to launder someone's offense and awkwardly shift some responsibility back on the GP players for this atrocious series of moderation decisions.

[Davelands]

An update on this topic:
-snipped for brevity-

Thank you for a good and fair decision. I look forward to seeing how it will be handled going forward so we can protect both the wider community (and ourselves) from problems.

(besides, anyone with an animated Llama as a flag is OK in my book)