[discussion] The State of Moderation

[The North Polish Union]

I've avoided joining in the discussion of the TRR RMB debacle because its not anything that was going anywhere productive, but I want to express my hope that site moderation doesn't overcorrect too far in a heavy-handed direction. There is a fine line that needs to be walked between permissiveness and language policing.

There has always been a distinction in site rules between attacking users and their arguments and so to tell another user "you're stupid" has long been actionable where "your argument is stupid" has not; the reality is that both may cause offense but the first attacks the poster rather than the argument. While I don't have a problem with reevaluating whether argument-attacking phrases such as "your argument is retarded" may be considered actionable in the same way that other slurs already are (and interestingly 'Polak/Polack' is apparently not one of these, while I once saw someone DEATed for "Czechbag"), a moderation paradigm where the possibility of a post to cause offense is a determinant for whether the post is actionable would be very destructive IMO.

Areas of this site such as the GA have tackled issues such as sexuality and gender, abortion, public health, and mental disability where discussions are almost guaranteed to offend. Even if rules are enforced more strictly, rather than codified more strictly, I hope that this is not done in such a way that views outside of the site's majority consensus are viewed as trolling.

[Nilokeras]

I sincerely doubt any sort of malice in the lack of reporting. A more likely culprit I suspect is just folks mistakenly assuming "Somebody else probably already reported that, so I don't need to.", or perhaps mistakenly guessing "Mods probably won't think it's actionable so why bother?" Duplicate reports are at best a minor nuisance; if we get a slew of reports on the same guy, it doesn't take any sort of huge effort to clear the duplicates out. Warnings for frivolous reporting is an absolute rarity almost always reserved for players making outright fraudulent reports (IE: "So and so sent this nastygram!" ... and no such nastygram exists in the reported user's sent TGs.), so it's better to report those "... mods probably won't think it's actionable" borderline cases. At worst, it's not actionable. If it is actionable, then we're aware and can deal with it. If it's borderline, it begins to build the paper trail that we can use to go "Individually, that's not actionable, but looking at it all together merits a smiting."

This was brought up the last time a discussion was had on the forum side of moderation, but I think it's worth considering the structural problem here - specifically the private nature of GHRs and the way they discourage potential reports. With forum posts, its easy to tell that a report has been made because the reports are made public and they are (usually) obvious when you go into the Moderation forum. Comparatively it's impossible to tell as a person outside of the mod team if an RMB post has been reported. This makes for a powerful bystander effect. One thing that might be worth considering is to redefine what reports go into the GHRs so that only 'private' reports are made through them - specifically things like telegrams or sensitive issues that cannot or should not be made public. Public facing things like RMB posts can be reported in the Moderation forum like everything else, maybe through its own special 'Gameside' sub-forum so people know where to put them.

[Jar Wattinree]

How are we supposed to even be aware there is a problem, let alone respond to it when nobody ever actually reported it? We have to very heavily rely on player reports to respond to problems, we lack the manpower or the fancy algorithms to more pro-actively seek out and deal with potentially rulebreaking material. There is certainly a problem here, and it's far more complicated than just "mods are too lax" or "mods aren't doing their jobs." It's also "mods cannot see everything and we cannot even begin to act on something we don't see and no one bothers to report."

I sincerely doubt any sort of malice in the lack of reporting. A more likely culprit I suspect is just folks mistakenly assuming "Somebody else probably already reported that, so I don't need to.", or perhaps mistakenly guessing "Mods probably won't think it's actionable so why bother?" Duplicate reports are at best a minor nuisance; if we get a slew of reports on the same guy, it doesn't take any sort of huge effort to clear the duplicates out. Warnings for frivolous reporting is an absolute rarity almost always reserved for players making outright fraudulent reports (IE: "So and so sent this nastygram!" ... and no such nastygram exists in the reported user's sent TGs.), so it's better to report those "... mods probably won't think it's actionable" borderline cases. At worst, it's not actionable. If it is actionable, then we're aware and can deal with it. If it's borderline, it begins to build the paper trail that we can use to go "Individually, that's not actionable, but looking at it all together merits a smiting."

On the enforcement side of things, we do seem to oscillate over time between "too harsh" and "too lax." To use Efergar (so sick of that guy but he's a good example,) we probably did not need to waste time letting him rack up his three DEAT events before throwing him out on his ass as a troll; sign that we're on the "too lax" side of the pendulum swing. Maybe we've gotten a bit too stuck in that routine of "3 DEATs before DOS." That is presently under discussion backstage. Additionally, other topics raised such as Holocaust denial and the various -isms and -phobias and "Crack down on TRR's RMB?" are currently being discussed as well.

Yeah, this has me even more convinced now that this was hugely blown out of proportion. The fact that not a single one of these messages were reported makes this whole thing a bunch of needless nonsense.

Am quoting these here, and with one of Reppy's lines bolded in particular, for a specific reason: at one time I was submitting so many GHRs (routine region cleaning) I was told that "if I was doing it out of a sense of duty to the site we [the Moderators) got it covered".

The mods can't do their job if no one is actually making reports. Always better to err on the side of reporting too much than reporting too little, even if you get the occasional snarky response or are told to grow a thicker skin. The mods are still human at the end of the day, and as noted, they have limited manpower, working out of their free obligation, and are just as liable to lapses of judgment at times.

[The Church of Satan]

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps having two moderators in our region, posting on our RMB, and seeing us complain about it in Discord, gave us the impression that they'd think to themselves "Well, I AM a mod. I ought to let my fellow mods know about this constant mess on the RMB, because I know about it." Sometimes it just seemed like we didn't have to report it because they're in there with us, and know what's going on. And for something that went on as long as this did, how could they not know about it?

For the record, I'm not bashing CG & Goob. They're awesome. ^_^

[Ghost Land]

Another clear example of something that needs to be re-evaluating is COVID-19 misinformation. That being ruled not actionable in response to GHRs is another concern. Again, the times could be an excuse there, vaccine denialism and other disease nonsense was not as big of a deal before the pandemic, but we need to be doing better with that too.

Uh...what? We already have a rule against COVID-19 misinformation - and if anything it goes a little too far into suppressing statements of opinion IMO.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Another clear example of something that needs to be re-evaluating is COVID-19 misinformation. That being ruled not actionable in response to GHRs is another concern. Again, the times could be an excuse there, vaccine denialism and other disease nonsense was not as big of a deal before the pandemic, but we need to be doing better with that too.

Uh...what? We already have a rule against COVID-19 misinformation - and if anything it goes a little too far into suppressing statements of opinion IMO.

They rolled that back to things that are extremely dangerous I believe. You'd have to suggest someone drink bleach or something poisonous as a "cure" or "preventative" of Covid-19, or things of that nature to get smacked under that rule. Not much is being censored there anymore.

[Ghost Land]

Uh...what? We already have a rule against COVID-19 misinformation - and if anything it goes a little too far into suppressing statements of opinion IMO.

They rolled that back to things that are extremely dangerous I believe. You'd have to suggest someone drink bleach or something poisonous as a "cure" or "preventative" of Covid-19, or things of that nature to get smacked under that rule. Not much is being censored there anymore.

Checking the announcement again, it appears you're correct - and I have no problem with the rule as it currently stands. Thank you for the correction.

[CoraSpia]

Mods are kind of in a no-win situation here. If they over-correct in the way that some nsgp people seem to want them to do, they'll soon get a discussion thread started by a bunch of nsg people who disagree with that. Two very different communities, each telling the mods to do completely different things.

[Archinstinct]

Mods are kind of in a no-win situation here. If they over-correct in the way that some nsgp people seem to want them to do, they'll soon get a discussion thread started by a bunch of nsg people who disagree with that. Two very different communities, each telling the mods to do completely different things.

They shouldn't bother listening to a community which support a extremist state anyway

[The Reformed American Republic]

Mods are kind of in a no-win situation here. If they over-correct in the way that some nsgp people seem to want them to do, they'll soon get a discussion thread started by a bunch of nsg people who disagree with that. Two very different communities, each telling the mods to do completely different things.

They shouldn't bother listening to a community which support a extremist state anyway

Access to that document is restricted.

[Archinstinct]

They shouldn't bother listening to a community which support a extremist state anyway

Access to that document is restricted.

It's my first time making a google doc I'm linking to share with others It should be viewable now.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Access to that document is restricted.

It's my first time making a google doc I'm linking to share with others It should be viewable now.

Thanks. I'm glad I don't take NSGP and their moralism seriously.

[Quebecshire]

Mods are kind of in a no-win situation here. If they over-correct in the way that some nsgp people seem to want them to do, they'll soon get a discussion thread started by a bunch of nsg people who disagree with that. Two very different communities, each telling the mods to do completely different things.

They shouldn't bother listening to a community which support a extremist state anyway

"The moderators should not take more action against bigotry and COVID misinformation because 2 people on the NSGP server are DPRK sympathizers" - excellent take.

[Sedgistan]

Discussion of moderation of the NationStates site belongs here, within the topic paramaters as laid out in the rather limited OP (i.e. moderation of the Rejected Realms' RMB).

Discussion of the player-run (i.e. totally unofficial) NSGP Discord server does not belong here; at best it might warrant discussion in the Gameplay forum, providing you are careful you do not violate site rules in doing so.

[Alfonzo]

It's my first time making a google doc I'm linking to share with others It should be viewable now.

Thanks. I'm glad I don't take NSGP and their moralism seriously.

?

You should realize these are jus a few members in a large community? I mean of course NSGP is more leftist but not many share those types of views. Regardless, the topic here is wether bigotry and the like should be allowed to fester on TRR and what moderation is doing about it. The issue is much more than NSGP as many (even in TRR) don't play NSGP (not to mention how moderation applies to all of gameside). I know people want to harp on GP here but this just ain't that time.

[Archinstinct]

Oh no, Moderation should completely take more action against bigotry (why aren't those people banned outright?) and COVID misinformation (Total support, I lost a family member because of misinformation).

On the other hand, the mods are not in a no-win situation because one side has it's own problems they need to sort the hell out.

Furthermore, I'm understanding of the position of moderation on the website. The staff are only volunteers and nationstates crap should not be a burden on anybody's life. Should they listen to the people hear and decide to take more action, I think expanding the team would be a viable option. More people on more often to deal with issues.

[Ghost Land]

Oh no, Moderation should completely take more action against bigotry (why aren't those people banned outright?) and COVID misinformation (Total support, I lost a family member because of misinformation).

Define "bigotry", keeping in mind that "all X are Y" comments already are against the rules, being considered trolling.

Dangerous COVID-19 misinformation ("drink bleach!") is already against the rules. What else are you asking for in that regard?

[Great Algerstonia]

Thanks. I'm glad I don't take NSGP and their moralism seriously.

?

You should realize these are jus a few members in a large community? I mean of course NSGP is more leftist but not many share those types of views. Regardless, the topic here is wether bigotry and the like should be allowed to fester on TRR and what moderation is doing about it. The issue is much more than NSGP as many (even in TRR) don't play NSGP (not to mention how moderation applies to all of gameside). I know people want to harp on GP here but this just ain't that time.

Tankies are not true leftists. True leftists do not support ultranationalism, ethnic cleansing, genocide, concentration camps, discrimination, etc. They are Red Fascists, pure and simple. And if Gameplay shouldn't be the topic, then Gameplayers should stop talking about how great their Moderation standards are when that is not at all the case.

[Archinstinct]

Oh no, Moderation should completely take more action against bigotry (why aren't those people banned outright?) and COVID misinformation (Total support, I lost a family member because of misinformation).

Define "bigotry", keeping in mind that "all X are Y" comments already are against the rules, being considered trolling.

It's semi complicated because I would say "just follow merriam webster" but their definition is:

"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

Which would generally include a lot of the NS community in general beyond the people I'm talking about. The addendum of merriam-webster though is more apt:

"a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)"

In all I would say draw the line of actionable across what a person says/does and who a person is and what they believe. In other words, judge a person by their actions and not who they are.

---

Dangerous COVID-19 misinformation ("drink bleach!") is already against the rules. What else are you asking for in that regard?

Reinstate stricter rules of the COVID-19 megathread. Start there and adjust according to the needs of the community.

[Ghost Land]

Define "bigotry", keeping in mind that "all X are Y" comments already are against the rules, being considered trolling.

It's semi complicated because I would say "just follow merriam webster" but their definition is:

"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

Which would generally include a lot of the NS community in general beyond the people I'm talking about. The addendum of merriam-webster though is more apt:

"a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)"

In all I would say draw the line of actionable across what a person says/does and who a person is and what they believe. In other words, judge a person by their actions and not who they are.

Like I said, making comments of the "all Jews are vile" variety already falls under trolling: an existing rule violation category. Not unless you're seriously suggesting that sticking to one's original point be made against the rules...

Dangerous COVID-19 misinformation ("drink bleach!") is already against the rules. What else are you asking for in that regard?

Reinstate stricter rules of the COVID-19 megathread. Start there and adjust according to the needs of the community.

And these rules were excessive, including what were by all means statements of opinion under the umbrella of "misinformation". Also keep in mind that misinformation came from both sides: it's not like ABC, CBS, and CNN have been 100% truthful about the whole thing either.

[Vistulange]

Dangerous COVID-19 misinformation ("drink bleach!") is already against the rules. What else are you asking for in that regard?

Reinstate stricter rules of the COVID-19 megathread. Start there and adjust according to the needs of the community.

Those rules were pretty bad, and while they were understandable as a stop-gap measure for a temporary period while everything was in chaos, reinstating them is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea as a long-term or permanent rule.

If I'm not mistaken, at least one idea that was practically forbidden to talk about under those strict rules became a talking point on mainstream media some time after those rules were softened. So yeah, probably the best to keep them relaxed, specific to Covid-19.

But, on the grander scope of things: What on Earth do you mean by "start there and adjust according to the needs of the community"? Perhaps, just perhaps, that was exactly why moderation decided to relax those rules in the first place, because they may have decided that the community no longer warranted such heavy-handed rules? Mind you, it may have been a completely different thing that led them to take such a position, but overall I get the feeling that you just want what you want, and the whole "adjust according to needs" is window-dressing that means nothing in practicality.

[Relden]

Yeah, those hilariously nonsense rules on "Covid-19 misinformation" need to stay six feet under.

[Necroghastia]

ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

[Vassenor]

ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

This, pretty much.

[CoraSpia]

ngl im one of those people of the opinion that relaxing the rona rules was a huge mistake

it's not like we're out of the woods and don't still have people trying to do everything they can to be plague rats

It's actually clear now, which was the issue in the past. 'drink bleach' type stuff is different from people posting a study from one country that conflicts with a study from, say, America when it comes to the death rates.