NationStates

So, I'm thinking of writing a short story on here via dispatch, but it contains incest (but no smut/sexual activity). Is that considered a violation of the PG-13 rule?

Drew Durrnil wrote:So, I'm thinking of writing a short story on here via dispatch, but it contains incest (but no smut/sexual activity). Is that considered a violation of the PG-13 rule?

What, for example?

A brother/sister couple dating and kissing.

Nothing in the rule book says anything about incest, I say, take some caution

/obligatory not a mod

The OSRS wrote:1) Keep it PG-13. The standard for both the forums and game is the US movie rating "PG-13". Mild swearing may be tolerated, mild sexuality may be hinted, but explicit or excessive versions of either or both may result in proportional mod response. Anything that crosses this boundary is subject to punishment depending on how far it goes.

Erotic roleplay and cybersexing are forbidden on all areas of the site -- forums, rmbs, or telegrams. Engaging in these anywhere on site will lead to warnings, bans, deletion or being declared Delete on Sight (DOS), depending on a player's prior history here. Along similar lines, specific sex-related topics pertaining to minors are prohibited entirely. Additional information is available here.

I'm not a moderator, but you should follow this standard.

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

The OSRS wrote:1) Keep it PG-13. The standard for both the forums and game is the US movie rating "PG-13". Mild swearing may be tolerated, mild sexuality may be hinted, but explicit or excessive versions of either or both may result in proportional mod response. Anything that crosses this boundary is subject to punishment depending on how far it goes.

Erotic roleplay and cybersexing are forbidden on all areas of the site -- forums, rmbs, or telegrams. Engaging in these anywhere on site will lead to warnings, bans, deletion or being declared Delete on Sight (DOS), depending on a player's prior history here. Along similar lines, specific sex-related topics pertaining to minors are prohibited entirely. Additional information is available here.

I'm not a moderator, but you should follow this standard.

I want to hear a mod's opinion before writing it, since a thread regarding the merits of incest got removed.

Drew Durrnil wrote:I want to hear a mod's opinion before writing it

The Reformed American Republic had it right. You're trying to tread in forbidden territory. Don't go there.

Frisbeeteria wrote:

Drew Durrnil wrote:I want to hear a mod's opinion before writing it

The Reformed American Republic had it right. You're trying to tread in forbidden territory. Don't go there.

Could I ask for clarification here? Many rps set in the game of thrones/a song of ice and fire universe include brother/sister relationships, as they are of course common within that universe. Are you stating that there is a more general prohibition of incestuous relationships on the site, or that the rule regarding pg-13 rules applies?
To give an example here, I am of course aware that depictions of some of what Jaime and cersei Lannister get up to would be a clear violation of pg-13 rules. Would a depiction of a brother and sister hugging/kissing/dating be permitted however, or the usual fade to black that occurs to avoid breaching the usual pg-13 rules?

CoraSpia wrote:Could I ask for clarification here?

I don't see a need for clarification. The ruling quoted the OSRS, which is the Gold Standard for what is allowed. We're not going to make an exception for GoT roleplays.

Frisbeeteria wrote:

CoraSpia wrote:Could I ask for clarification here?

I don't see a need for clarification. The ruling quoted the OSRS, which is the Gold Standard for what is allowed. We're not going to make an exception for GoT roleplays.

GoT roleplay was an example of when this could become an issue, I wasn't asking regarding GoT roleplay specifically. The OP asked regarding a brother/sister couple dating and kissing, and I'm trying to work out where the rule stands as you state he was trying to tread into forbidden territory.
I would not have to go far to look for a movie with a pg-13 rating in which people kissed, as I'm sure you know. The question I asked therefore remains the same: is incest treated differently to the rp of non-incestuous relationships? The way I see it there are 3 possibilities here: it is, it's not and all kissing/dating is banned, or the advice given didn't take into account the nature of the story that the OP was talking about. Enforcement of the pg-13 rule has gotten tighter in the last few years, and so further muddying of the waters is unwelcome.

We don't rule on hypotheticals or lay down precise guidelines because that's just a recipe for rules lawyering. We're not handing over a list of instructions for you to wave around later if you get in trouble for writing something nasty while being all, "But I'm sticking to the rules that you laid out!", sorry.

In a broad, purely theoretical sense, could there be a way to depict or discuss incest in RP or other writing without running afoul of the rules? Yes. Am I going to attempt to outline every conceivable way you could do so? No. Context is key when it comes to these things, and context covers infinite possibilities. Neither I nor anyone else can foresee every last possibility where incest would be appropriately depicted versus when it would not be. Thus, in order to moderate such things effectively, that window of interpretation must remain open and unhampered by the sort of hardline answers that you are demanding we give you.

Here is a good rule of thumb: If you couldn't explain it to a young child without getting trouble, or if you couldn't say it to a stranger on the street without looking like a freak, don't do it. Plenty of children and strangers know for example that the ancient Egyptian royalty participated in incest, but that wouldn't make reading to them from an incest romance novel okay (even if that novel had no sex in it.) The same goes for other graphic topics such as sexual assault or violence. If it is ever unclear to you whether or not it is appropriate, then assume that it is not and don't post it.

Giovenith wrote:We don't rule on hypotheticals or lay down precise guidelines because that's just a recipe for rules lawyering. We're not handing over a list of instructions for you to wave around later if you get in trouble for writing something nasty while being all, "But I'm sticking to the rules that you laid out!", sorry.

In a broad, purely theoretical sense, could there be a way to depict or discuss incest in RP or other writing without running afoul of the rules? Yes. Am I going to attempt to outline every conceivable way you could do so? No. Context is key when it comes to these things, and context covers infinite possibilities. Neither I nor anyone else can foresee every last possibility where incest would be appropriately depicted versus when it would not be. Thus, in order to moderate such things effectively, that window of interpretation must remain open and unhampered by the sort of hardline answers that you are demanding we give you.

Here is a good rule of thumb: If you couldn't explain it to a young child without getting trouble, or if you couldn't say it to a stranger on the street without looking like a freak, don't do it. Plenty of children and strangers know for example that the ancient Egyptian royalty participated in incest, but that wouldn't make reading to them from an incest romance novel okay (even if that novel had no sex in it.) The same goes for other graphic topics such as sexual assault or violence. If it is ever unclear to you whether or not it is appropriate, then assume that it is not and don't post it.

To be fair, the PG-13 rule on content probably needs to be brought up to date a bit with definitions.

If I posted a graphic description of a person pulling the heart of another person then I'm pretty sure I would be dinged. But that was seen as just PG. Maybe the mods should look at that a bit?

Fartsniffage wrote:

Giovenith wrote:We don't rule on hypotheticals or lay down precise guidelines because that's just a recipe for rules lawyering. We're not handing over a list of instructions for you to wave around later if you get in trouble for writing something nasty while being all, "But I'm sticking to the rules that you laid out!", sorry.

In a broad, purely theoretical sense, could there be a way to depict or discuss incest in RP or other writing without running afoul of the rules? Yes. Am I going to attempt to outline every conceivable way you could do so? No. Context is key when it comes to these things, and context covers infinite possibilities. Neither I nor anyone else can foresee every last possibility where incest would be appropriately depicted versus when it would not be. Thus, in order to moderate such things effectively, that window of interpretation must remain open and unhampered by the sort of hardline answers that you are demanding we give you.

Here is a good rule of thumb: If you couldn't explain it to a young child without getting trouble, or if you couldn't say it to a stranger on the street without looking like a freak, don't do it. Plenty of children and strangers know for example that the ancient Egyptian royalty participated in incest, but that wouldn't make reading to them from an incest romance novel okay (even if that novel had no sex in it.) The same goes for other graphic topics such as sexual assault or violence. If it is ever unclear to you whether or not it is appropriate, then assume that it is not and don't post it.

To be fair, the PG-13 rule on content probably needs to be brought up to date a bit with definitions.

If I posted a graphic description of a person pulling the heart of another person then I'm pretty sure I would be dinged. But that was seen as just PG. Maybe the mods should look at that a bit?

Once again, the rules are worded the way that they are, so that our resident rules lawyers cannot wave something around while rule breaking, claiming that they stayed within the lines.

Lamoni wrote:

Fartsniffage wrote:
To be fair, the PG-13 rule on content probably needs to be brought up to date a bit with definitions.

If I posted a graphic description of a person pulling the heart of another person then I'm pretty sure I would be dinged. But that was seen as just PG. Maybe the mods should look at that a bit?

Once again, the rules are worded the way that they are, so that our resident rules lawyers cannot wave something around while rule breaking, claiming that they stayed within the lines.

I don't get you? Are you saying that the rules are unclear so that people who get punished for staying within the rules as written can't claim to be following the rules, which they were doing? I understand what the US film rating pg-13 is, and it doesn't exclude films containing two people kissing. I am not familiar with a film which includes a brother and sister kissing, as I suspect I'm among the nsg users with the worst film knowledge. I like to participate in rps in p2tm however, and I don't particularly fancy getting warned for rping two people kissing. Love and dating are a major part of character development in a lot of categories of rp, which given your experience in rp you will be well aware of. Prohibiting a brother and sister from kissing opens up a whole can of worms as it leads to the question of what other groups of people are not allowed to kiss in rps. I totally understand that you don't want to allow scope for rules lawyering, but unclear rules create more problems than they solve and it's better that the rules be kept as clear as possible than we see people who thought they were following the rules be smacked by a new interpretation of the rules.

Not to butt in where I’m not wanted but hasn’t the question already been answered?

Aye, it has, hence me calling it a night for this thread.

Thanks!
NVI