NationStates

Referencing a previous thread here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=493337

After the shit that happened early this month at the US Capitol (the violent attempted coup where people died) I'd like to revisit this topic. Since it's fact now a good portion of the rioters that stormed the capitol were part of the Q-Anon movement, and the rioters were led by by an organized militia of former military who believed the conspiracy theories Q-Anon craps out, coupled with the reality the Q-anon movement is used to promote domestic terrorism in the USA now along with white supremacy.. My opinion regarding Q-Anon content on this website has shifted.

I'd like to propose that all Q-Anon Content, in whatever forms it may take in be banned from this browser game as soon as possible. How that rule is implemented, I'll leave up to the moderation staff and more veteran players who know the community better than I do. I'm just reintroducing this discussion.

It is definitely a subject worth revisiting, given how much circumstances have shifted/intensified since late October when it last came up for discussion. I've grave-dug the discussion thread about it in the sekrit lair to get the team going on it again. If folks would like to offer their thoughts on the subject in the meantime, including thoughts on if or how such a ban should be implemented, by all means go for it.

Has anything changed? QAnon is still a literal domestic terror movement, exactly as much as it was back in late October, and should be banned (Or allowed) alongside e.g. ISIS material and promotion. We knew this in October, we know this now. What has been revealed inbetween? Or, in other words, are we banning QAnon for losing their coup rather than on the basis of their terrorist agenda?

No. Nothing is sacred, everything is permitted.
Criticize everything, prevent censorship.
I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

Even Alex Jones himself later said that the Q Anon stuff is going too far, and their LARPing is even damaging to their own cause.
But should it be censored? No, nothing should be.

Miku the Based wrote:No. Nothing is sacred, everything is permitted.
Criticize everything, prevent censorship.
I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

Except it's not up to you. If the mods and Admins decide, through their discussions, that they want to ban any discussion of QAnon or it's ideologies, then that is their right.

Miku the Based wrote:No. Nothing is sacred, everything is permitted.
Criticize everything, prevent censorship.
I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

Except you don't have freedom of speech here (It's the private property of Max Berry, who can decide who stays and what goes, and can delegate that power to the mods), but even in public discourse this is entirely wrong. Should people be allowed to make credible death threats? Well, apparently yes, according to you. Invite terrorism (As QAnon and ISIS do)? Again, you must think this is appropriate. Broadcast state secrets, private personal information or child pornography indiscriminately? Certainly, if everything is permitted.

This absolutist view, that every sane limitation is censorship and every insane utterance is sacred, is immature and absurd. Of course there are reasonable grounds to censor or punish speech, even before we get into Poppers toleration paradox and other more developed ethical stances.

I wholeheartedly agree. There's biased media, and there's promoting terrorism, and Q-Anon is definitely the latter.

As to implementation, I think the fairest way would be to have a grace period after an announcement pinned to all boards, and possibly a VoM TG so no one has any excuse for not knowing.

Jebslund wrote:I wholeheartedly agree. There's biased media, and there's promoting terrorism, and Q-Anon is definitely the latter.

As to implementation, I think the fairest way would be to have a grace period after an announcement pinned to all boards, and possibly a VoM TG so no one has any excuse for not knowing.

This TBH. Then should we put Q-Anon content under the Trolling rule or create a separate category for it regarding punishment, like Covid-19?

Miku the Based wrote:I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

I mean I would say banning content relating to the crazed cult that literally attempted a coup d'état against the United States Government is a perfectly fair and fine thing to do. Cuz again, and I feel like I need to repeat this for you (and anyone else who says we shouldn't ban Q-Anon stuff here): We are not talking about some fringe extremely online right-wing thing anymore, we are now talking about an effective cult that is completely divorced from reality that was responsible for a terrorist attack on the United States Capitol in an attempt to keep Donald Trump in office.

Aikoland wrote:

Miku the Based wrote:I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

I mean I would say banning content relating to the crazed cult that literally attempted a coup d'état against the United States Government is a perfectly fair and fine thing to do. Cuz again, and I feel like I need to repeat this for you (and anyone else who says we shouldn't ban Q-Anon stuff here): We are not talking about some fringe extremely online right-wing thing anymore, we are now talking about an effective cult that is completely divorced from reality that was responsible for a terrorist attack on the United States Capitol in an attempt to keep Donald Trump in office.

Is there a precedent on the site for banning supporters of literally any other coup in literally any other country? You know, serious genuine coups that cause a hell of a lot of death and destruction and sometimes actually succeed in overthrowing governments and replacing them with tyrants or military regimes, not just dumbfuck rioters getting way out of hand, killing one guy and losing four of their own. That's not a coup, that's laughable. This isn't even an American site. Why should this be a special case just because it happened in the US?

Picairn wrote:

Jebslund wrote:I wholeheartedly agree. There's biased media, and there's promoting terrorism, and Q-Anon is definitely the latter.

As to implementation, I think the fairest way would be to have a grace period after an announcement pinned to all boards, and possibly a VoM TG so no one has any excuse for not knowing.

This TBH. Then should we put Q-Anon content under the Trolling rule or create a separate category for it regarding punishment, like Covid-19?

Forbidden sites/sources? Otherwise, promoting illegal activity.

There are limits to everything. Even speech.

I am okay with and probably think its for the better if QAnon and other violent (and stupid) conspiracy theories are forbidden from being discussed. I doubt a civil discussion on this topic could ever arise.

Shazbotdom wrote:

Miku the Based wrote:No. Nothing is sacred, everything is permitted.
Criticize everything, prevent censorship.
I don't care if it's crazy fringe right wing stuff, it's not worth banning people for thinking that way.

Except it's not up to you. If the mods and Admins decide, through their discussions, that they want to ban any discussion of QAnon or it's ideologies, then that is their right.

Such a dumb reply that honestly adds nothing to discussion. They never stated otherwise, they simply expressed their belief that they don't think more censorship is good.

Considering what a dangerous conspiracy theory it is, I would support banning QAnon content.

Well this is a private site so it can enforce its own restrictions. I personally don't believe in censoring speech, even QAnon tier stuff, but Max and the admins can determine what they want to do here.

That being said if QAnon content is banned because of extremism, why not ban Christianity? or Islam? or Atheism? Almost every movement large enough has violent fringes.

Would harmless Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself memes qualify as QAnon content? What about terms such as CCP virus that are widely used by Falun Gong-owned news outlets?

What about all this nonsense about widespread fraud in the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election? Would that qualify as QAnon content too?

How about general pro-Trump talking points such as "there is no evidence of Russian collusion"? Do all expressions of support for Donald Trump qualify? "MAGA?" "Four More Years?"

Or would content have to explicitly relate to QAnon in order to qualify? Would said content specifically have to encourage illegal acts in order to qualify? How wide should the net be cast?

And as one user said, NS is not even an American website. Why stop at banning just U.S.-centric content? I'm already under the impression radical Islamist material is already de facto banned on this site.

I'm not a huge fan of private companies and governments alike taking it upon themselves to decide what constitutes truth vs untruth given their sheer propensity for bias as well as the likelihood of abuse by bad actors even if there is a lot of misinformation out there. I have already criticized the ban on coronavirus misinformation for the same reason.

Only illiterate redneck hillbillies embrace Qanon . They cannot read or write anyway.

Jabberwocky wrote:Only illiterate redneck hillbillies embrace Qanon . They cannot read or write anyway.

This isn't it.

Anglicora wrote:That being said if QAnon content is banned because of extremism, why not ban Christianity? or Islam? or Atheism? Almost every movement large enough has violent fringes.

True, but QAnon seems to be an extremist, violent fringe.

Q-Anon isn't trolling, so if you guys want to ban it, it should be banned under its own rule in the OSRS that specifically bans it. I have no qualms about it being banned, as it's a really dangerous conspiracy that doesn't belong on a site like this. I'm not usually for banning opinions or most conspiracy theories, but this is an exception.

Anglicora wrote:That being said if QAnon content is banned because of extremism, why not ban Christianity? or Islam? or Atheism? Almost every movement large enough has violent fringes.

Because as a whole, Qanon is pure extremism (i.e. absolute batshit crazy bullshit; no room for logical thinking whatsoever). Don't tell me you think that those religions listed are pure extremism.

I'd imagine that Max has an opinion on whether it should be banned. He similarly had significant input regarding the genesis of the Coronavirus misinformation rule, so it'll likely come down to which way that Max wants to go, unless of course he decides to leave this matter totally to the discretion of the Mod team.

Anglicora wrote:That being said if QAnon content is banned because of extremism, why not ban Christianity? or Islam? or Atheism? Almost every movement large enough has violent fringes.

You do know that the KKK is literally disliked by many Christians right? We are against racism.

EDIT: With that said I don't think we should ban Islam nor Christianity just because a few extremists give them a bad name.