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[D] Is NS a safe space for leftists?

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Glorious Hong Kong
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[D] Is NS a safe space for leftists?

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:20 am

After getting warned/banned more than once by Moderation for the "crime" of unintentionally offending leftists, and especially after reading Page's sig,

Welcome to NationStates, a safe space for fascists so long as they express their murderous ideology euphemistically. Leftists who hurt their feelings will be banned.


...I just had to respond with this discussion thread. Is NS a safe space for leftists? Should Moderation do more to rule based on facts rather than feelings?

TL;DR answer: Absolutely.

Some leftists have argued that NS is actually a safe space for fascists and that it's actually leftists who are being "unjustly" censored for trolling (in some cases, literally clear-cut, all-x-are-y trolling, e.g. ACAB, which many leftists magically think it's okay to say and which I myself have reported on multiple occasions). Given that NS seems to be overwhelmingly dominated by radical leftists, and given the sheer amount of hate I've been roundly subjected to by leftists, particularly in the months and weeks leading up to the 2020 U.S. Election, as well as a number of unjust warnings and bans against my name by Moderation, I take strong exception to this extraordinary claim, a claim that reeks very strongly of an unfounded and highly ironic victim mentality on the part of the Left. I'm strongly inclined to believe the reverse is true, only substitute "fascists" with liberals, moderates, conservatives and centrists.

A site that is dominated by leftist, openly, unironically, and shamelessly communist and Marxist users is conducive to the creation of numerous, de facto safe spaces and echo chambers on NSG such as MAGAthread, the U.S. Election thread, and the U.S. BLM riots thread, to name a few, with liberal and conservative players exceedingly far and few in between. It is also conducive to a highly toxic environment that lends itself to bad-faith, leftist dogpiling, gaslighting, defamatory smear campaigns and character assassinations, and sustained harassment across multiple threads of non-leftist players such as myself. Hardly a safe space for fascists, real or imagined, if you ask me. Literally no one likes fascists, but everyone just adores communists and Marxists.

Moderation has stated in its Election sticky that given the demographic supremacy of leftist players on NS, they would do more to correct for any leftist bias in reporting by trawling the past ten pages of a thread or so. Yet leftist sensibilities are apparently considered so sacrosanct by Moderation that it directly affects how they rule on certain posts:

TIL that condoning self-defense, calling for illegal immigrants to be decisively rounded up and deported by law enforcement (one-day ban for "covid misinfo" was downgraded to a warning for "trolling" on appeal), and calling Arab/Islamic culture's compatibility with liberal, democratic values into question are all now actionable offenses. Sarcastically referring to Islam as a "religion of peace" is trolling too because god only knows why. Insulting the King of Thailand and expressing political dissent in the strongest of terms is also considered "trolling".

I'm beginning to think this is less about combating "trolling" and "hate speech" and more about appeasing the delicate sensitivities of radical leftists, Muslims, and authoritarians (right-wing and left-wing) alike irrespective of Moderation's actual intentions. I find the second example regarding my ban (revised to a warning) for decrying illegal immigration to be particularly suspicious given some of the strongly-worded responses to my post from the usual suspects, the sudden, unexpected spate of reports against me, and their openly stated wish that I be removed from this site for expressing opinions they happen to disagree with. I got roundly singled out by leftists and swiftly banned, initially for "covid misinfo", subsequently downgraded to a warning for "trolling" on appeal (a possible instance of moving the goalposts?), by Moderation while I was AFK for inadvertently hurting their delicate feelings when all I was doing was canvassing for a political candidate on U.S. Election Day and attempting in vain to alter the outcome of that election.

I can't help but suspect there was a certain degree of appeasement involved on the part of Moderation and they were under tremendous, albeit unjustified, pressure to act against me while I was helplessly AFK and blissfully unaware of my situation. I also can't help but suspect that this naked attempt by leftists to get me banned may have been possibly coordinated given how much hate I've gotten from them these past couple of months. I'm concerned that this and other reports against myself and others could be politically motivated.

That's just the most egregious example I can think of. Leftists whose feelings have been injured have gone as far as to get certain players they disagree with banned from the site for the mere "crime" of wrongthink rather than for any actual instance of trolling or bigotry, and at least one of them (not naming names) has said so openly. They do this even on the flimsiest of pretexts, such as "covid misinformation" that turns out not to actually be misinformation at all, but facts verified by reputable news sources (and rightly upheld as such on appeal), at which point the goalpost abruptly shifts to "trolling". (To be fair, the covid misinfo rule has also been wrongly applied to a left-wing player (and overturned on appeal) on at least one occasion, but that's for a different thread.)

These leftists are attempting to enforce cancel culture on this very site with mixed results. They cannot and should not be allowed to succeed under any circumstances. I hope Moderation takes note of this disturbing trend, NS avoids the same fate as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and other spineless tech companies, and Max Barry takes a firm stand against this communist red terror that's currently playing out both online and IRL, in America, Europe, and Hong Kong.

We liberals and conservatives are the ones being routinely censored for our opinions, not leftists. I, for one, am willing to play my part, no matter how small, to push back against this rising tide of political censorship even if it means fighting a losing battle and being vastly outnumbered on this site. I will not go gently into that good night. No surrender.

To be clear, I'm not accusing the mods of deliberately singling out certain players based solely on their social or political views or of having some kind of nefarious agenda. My criticism isn't intended in bad faith. Leftists do get warned and banned too, and Moderation's refusal to budge on ACAB is commendable despite them creating an entire discussion thread on Moderation demanding special exemptions and preferential treatment for themselves while pretending to be the victims of "systemic injustice" like they typically do for certain groups of people IRL under a thin veneer of "social justice" because they got warned for all-x-are-y trolling. But aside from that rare exception to the rule, I would argue that NS is skewed in favor of leftists, not against them.

So I turn the question over to NSers. Is NS a safe space for leftists? Should Moderation do more to rule based on facts rather than feelings?
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:23 am

So is there anything tangible or specific that you wanna propose? EDIT: Ah okay.
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:31 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Honeydewistania » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:24 am

Stop moaning dude. The self defence thing was clear cut trolling.
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Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:25 am

It's a safe space for everyone except actual Nazis and Tankies, considering for now there's one guy who's considered a Nazi on here and only one tankie who doesn't actually think they're a tankie. But leftists do overwhelmingly flock here, likely due to recent issues like police funding, gay marriage, and trans rights causing the overton window to shift to the left.
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Kexholm Karelia
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Postby Kexholm Karelia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:28 am

I hope not. I have had some good debate here, some people are good debate and others are not, but overall 95% of people are good debaters
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West Gog
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Postby West Gog » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:28 am

Lol this forum is plagued by us

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Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:29 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:So is there anything tangible or specific that you wanna propose?


Let's cut the snark, please.

There's nothing wrong with starting a discussion over whether forum moderation is biased for or against a specific perspective, and whether - in his words - Moderation should 'do more to rule based on facts rather than feelings'.

This doesn't mean that the rest of the player base, or indeed the Moderation team, need to agree with him; but he's perfectly entitled to start a discussion on the topic, and to invite others to engage with that discussion.

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Postby Aeritai » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:32 am

I believe NS is not a safe space for anyone... If a user has extreme views that breaks the rules then the Mods are going to drop the hammer on them.

Also why would Max Barry care what happens on NSG? The only thing he focuses on is promoting his books and doing fun little events for NS.
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Kexholm Karelia
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Postby Kexholm Karelia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:34 am

I think this is worth mentioning
Kexholm Karelia wrote:
Picairn wrote:Unfounded accusations of course. There are also complaints from left wing nations that the mod team "is condoning fascist and far-right rhetoric on NSG so long as it is expressed 'politely'".

When it comes to cracking down on violations, both sides have their own opinions.

There are blatant 50 cent soldiers here and it’s pretty clear who they are whenever a thread relating to China is posted and freshly created accounts come in to the CCP's defense
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Postby Kungsu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:38 am

...you do realize those examples you provided have little to do with your beliefs and have more to do with your actions and words, right? Especially the Thailand one. Even if you want to "make a statement" about censorship, blatantly breaking the rules will always result in moderator action; Left, Right, or Center. You don't have the freedom to say whatever you want here. Just like how you can't go out and do whatever you want irl.

I would acquaint yourself with the forum's rules. If you disagree with them then the answer is simple: Go somewhere else. Breaking the rules will always have consequences, whether you like them, agree with them, or not.

Honestly, the some of Left says this site caters to the Right and some of the Right says it caters to the Left. That seems like it's pretty unbiased to me. Better than most other places on the internet, at least.
Last edited by Kungsu on Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Radictistan » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:38 am

I've never felt that NS was predominantly left-of-center in its user base. Maybe I'm just in the wrong threads.

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Kexholm Karelia
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Postby Kexholm Karelia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:39 am

Kungsu wrote:...you do realize those examples you provided have little to do with your beliefs and have more to do with your actions and words, right? Especially the Thailand one. Even if you want to "make a statement" about censorship, blatantly breaking the rules will always result in moderator action, Left, Right, or Center. You don't have the freedom to say whatever you want here. Just like how you can't go out and do whatever you want irl.

I would acquaint yourself with the forum's rules. If you disagree with them then the answer is simple: Go somewhere else. Breaking the rules will always have consequences, whether you like them, agree with them, or not.

Honestly, the some of Left says this site caters to the Right and some of the Right says it caters to the Left. That seems like it's pretty unbiased to me. Better than most other places on the internet, at least.

How is insulting Vajiralongkorn against site rules? Does NS have servers in Bangkok?
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:43 am

Kexholm Karelia wrote:
Kungsu wrote:...you do realize those examples you provided have little to do with your beliefs and have more to do with your actions and words, right? Especially the Thailand one. Even if you want to "make a statement" about censorship, blatantly breaking the rules will always result in moderator action, Left, Right, or Center. You don't have the freedom to say whatever you want here. Just like how you can't go out and do whatever you want irl.

I would acquaint yourself with the forum's rules. If you disagree with them then the answer is simple: Go somewhere else. Breaking the rules will always have consequences, whether you like them, agree with them, or not.

Honestly, the some of Left says this site caters to the Right and some of the Right says it caters to the Left. That seems like it's pretty unbiased to me. Better than most other places on the internet, at least.

How is insulting Vajiralongkorn against site rules? Does NS have servers in Bangkok?

Perhaps the other parts where they said "Poland is responsible for the Holocaust" and a variety trolly statements?

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Postby Vivolkha » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:46 am

Radictistan wrote:I've never felt that NS was predominantly left-of-center in its user base. Maybe I'm just in the wrong threads.

It is, but that just doesn't mean that NS is a safe space for... anyone, really.

Views from all across the political space can be expressed as long as they follow the rules, it's that simple. I don't think anything has to change here, accusing moderation of bias is not an excuse for rulebreaking.
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Postby Picairn » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:49 am

Glorious Hong Kong wrote:A site that is dominated by leftist, openly, unironically, and shamelessly communist and Marxist users is conducive to the creation of numerous, de facto safe spaces and echo chambers on NSG such as MAGAthread, the U.S. Election thread, and the U.S. BLM riots thread, to name a few, with liberal and conservative players exceedingly far and few in between. It is also conducive to a highly toxic environment that lends itself to bad-faith, leftist dogpiling, gaslighting, defamatory smear campaigns and character assassinations, and sustained harassment across multiple threads of non-leftist players such as myself. Hardly a safe space for fascists, real or imagined, if you ask me. Literally no one likes fascists, but everyone just adores communists and Marxists.

You'd be surprised at the amount of right wing posters openly challenging many leftists. They are not being silenced for posting their counter-arguments, but for making (ironically) the same crimes you are accusing leftists of.

Moderation has stated in its Election sticky that given the demographic supremacy of leftist players on NS, they would do more to correct for any leftist bias in reporting by trawling the past ten pages of a thread or so. Yet leftist sensibilities are apparently considered so sacrosanct by Moderation that it directly affects how they rule on certain posts:

TIL that condoning self-defense, calling for illegal immigrants to be decisively rounded up and deported by law enforcement (one-day ban for "covid misinfo" was downgraded to a warning for "trolling" on appeal), and calling Arab/Islamic culture's compatibility with liberal, democratic values into question are all now actionable offenses. Sarcastically referring to Islam as a "religion of peace" is trolling too because god only knows why. Insulting the King of Thailand and expressing political dissent in the strongest of terms is also considered "trolling".

This is why your accusations are not taken seriously: framing trollish posts, which were made to rile people up, into positive things.

I'm beginning to think this is less about combating "trolling" and "hate speech" and more about appeasing the delicate sensitivities of radical leftists, Muslims, and authoritarians (right-wing and left-wing) alike irrespective of Moderation's actual intentions. I find the second example regarding my ban (revised to a warning) for decrying illegal immigration to be particularly suspicious given some of the strongly-worded responses to my post from the usual suspects, the sudden, unexpected spate of reports against me, and their openly stated wish that I be removed from this site for expressing opinions they happen to disagree with. I got roundly singled out by leftists and swiftly banned, initially for "covid misinfo", subsequently downgraded to a warning for "trolling" on appeal (a possible instance of moving the goalposts?), by Moderation while I was AFK for inadvertently hurting their delicate feelings when all I was doing was canvassing for a political candidate on U.S. Election Day and attempting in vain to alter the outcome of that election.

If you repeatedly peddle conspiracy theories with trolling/flaming posts then don't ask why you are being constantly monitored and targeted for bad behavior. Don't forget that leftist and fascist nations who used hateful rhetoric have been DEATed and DOSed many times in the history of NSG.

I can't help but suspect there was a certain degree of appeasement involved on the part of Moderation and they were under tremendous, albeit unjustified, pressure to act against me while I was helplessly AFK and blissfully unaware of my situation. I also can't help but suspect that this naked attempt by leftists to get me banned may have been possibly coordinated given how much hate I've gotten from them these past couple of months. I'm concerned that this and other reports against myself and others could be politically motivated.

Lol so the entire NSG leftist community is after you. Man, I wish I had that kind of attention, because despite all of my clashes against NS leftists I have never gotten a warning. Yep, none. Turns out not flaming/trolling/peddling conspiracy theories will do that.

That's just the most egregious example I can think of. Leftists whose feelings have been injured have gone as far as to get certain players they disagree with banned from the site for the mere "crime" of wrongthink rather than for any actual instance of trolling or bigotry, and at least one of them (not naming names) has said so openly. They do this even on the flimsiest of pretexts, such as "covid misinformation" that turns out not to actually be misinformation at all, but facts verified by reputable news sources (and rightly upheld as such on appeal), at which point the goalpost abruptly shifts to "trolling". (To be fair, the covid misinfo rule has also been wrongly applied to a left-wing player (and overturned on appeal) on at least one occasion, but that's for a different thread.)

These leftists are attempting to enforce cancel culture on this very site with mixed results. They cannot and should not be allowed to succeed under any circumstances. I hope Moderation takes note of this disturbing trend, NS avoids the same fate as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and other spineless tech companies, and Max Barry takes a firm stand against this communist red terror that's currently playing out both online and IRL, in America, Europe, and Hong Kong.

While the mods committed mistakes, do understand that making them out to be controlled by some nefarious leftist movement on NSG will not be productive. Indeed, it makes your whole opinion seems like crackpot conspiracy theories. Methinks the mods should have more transparency but this? Communist red terror? Cancel culture? This is so damn nonsensical. I can attest that the mods here work x1000 times better than other social media companies in regard to moderating content. And I'm damn glad that NSG has not turned into a full blown flame war with epic misinformation in every thread.

We liberals and conservatives are the ones being routinely censored for our opinions, not leftists.

Ironic. Leftist nations have been warned, banned, DEATed and DOSed in the past.

I, for one, am willing to play my part, no matter how small, to push back against this rising tide of political censorship even if it means fighting a losing battle and being vastly outnumbered on this site. I will not go gently into that good night. No surrender.

To be clear, I'm not accusing the mods of deliberately singling out certain players based solely on their social or political views or of having some kind of nefarious agenda. My criticism isn't intended in bad faith. Leftists do get warned and banned too, and Moderation's refusal to budge on ACAB is commendable despite them creating an entire discussion thread on Moderation demanding special exemptions and preferential treatment for themselves while pretending to be the victims of "systemic injustice" like they typically do for certain groups of people IRL under a thin veneer of "social justice" because they got warned for all-x-are-y trolling. But aside from that rare exception to the rule, I would argue that NS is skewed in favor of leftists, not against them.

So I turn the question over to NSers. Is NS a safe space for leftists? Should Moderation do more to rule based on facts rather than feelings?[/spoiler]

Safe space for leftists? HAHAHAHA! You should have been here when leftists were arguing with the mods over the shuttering of LWDT and RWDT. And when leftist nations whine over getting punished by the mods "who enable fascism and far right opinions".
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Postby Alvecia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:57 am

I can't forsee this discussion going anywhere it didn't the last 20 times someone posted it
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:05 am

Anyways, as someone who habitually lurks in Moderation, I can attest that neither reports nor moderation action seems to be focused on one kind of ideology or another.

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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:09 am

If NS was a safe space, there wouldn't be players that unironically support fascism running around in NSG.

I used to think the mods had some kind of bias myself, but then I realized something important. The mods just fuck up sometimes, and other mods typically don't change the original mods' rulings during appeal unless the first mod really dropped the ball. That means a lot of the questionable warnings and bans that might be attributable to bias are really just mistakes that appear to have the backing of the mod team.

Personally, I'd love if appeals had more of an impact than they do, and it would help with the perception of mod bias, but I'm not holding my breath.
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:10 am

Moderation is mostly fine here, but there are plenty of rulings that I think are pretty dumb, like getting warned for a snarky post in the monuments thread and getting banned for one day because a moderator misunderstood my post.

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Kungsu
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Postby Kungsu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:22 am

Kexholm Karelia wrote:
Kungsu wrote:...you do realize those examples you provided have little to do with your beliefs and have more to do with your actions and words, right? Especially the Thailand one. Even if you want to "make a statement" about censorship, blatantly breaking the rules will always result in moderator action, Left, Right, or Center. You don't have the freedom to say whatever you want here. Just like how you can't go out and do whatever you want irl.

I would acquaint yourself with the forum's rules. If you disagree with them then the answer is simple: Go somewhere else. Breaking the rules will always have consequences, whether you like them, agree with them, or not.

Honestly, the some of Left says this site caters to the Right and some of the Right says it caters to the Left. That seems like it's pretty unbiased to me. Better than most other places on the internet, at least.

How is insulting Vajiralongkorn against site rules? Does NS have servers in Bangkok?

Like I said, it isn't about his ideals or opinions, but for breaking site rules. His post definitely breaks the [PG-13] rule of this site, as well as admitting to willingly violating the laws in his country (which would constitute "Seeking Help with Illegal Activities"), and promoting the idea that it should be okay to say thing such as "the Holocaust should have happened, and we'll do it again" (slightly murkier on this one, but it is hard not to interpret his post that way when you look at his aim).

Has nothing to do with his hatred for Vajiralongkorn, but rather the way in which he expressed it.
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Kexholm Karelia
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Postby Kexholm Karelia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:24 am

Kungsu wrote:
Kexholm Karelia wrote:How is insulting Vajiralongkorn against site rules? Does NS have servers in Bangkok?

Like I said, it isn't about his ideals or opinions, but for breaking site rules. His post definitely breaks the [PG-13] rule of this site, as well as admitting to willingly violating the laws in his country (which would constitute "Seeking Help with Illegal Activities"), and promoting the idea that it should be okay to say thing such as "the Holocaust should have happened, and we'll do it again" (slightly murkier on this one, but it is hard not to interpret his post that way when you look at his aim).

Has nothing to do with his hatred for Vajiralongkorn, but rather the way in which he expressed it.

Insulting Thai king is illegal in Thailand, so any criticism of him could be classified as promoting illegal activity then, technically?
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Kungsu
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 150
Founded: Sep 16, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Kungsu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:33 am

Kexholm Karelia wrote:
Kungsu wrote:Like I said, it isn't about his ideals or opinions, but for breaking site rules. His post definitely breaks the [PG-13] rule of this site, as well as admitting to willingly violating the laws in his country (which would constitute "Seeking Help with Illegal Activities"), and promoting the idea that it should be okay to say thing such as "the Holocaust should have happened, and we'll do it again" (slightly murkier on this one, but it is hard not to interpret his post that way when you look at his aim).

Has nothing to do with his hatred for Vajiralongkorn, but rather the way in which he expressed it.

Insulting Thai king is illegal in Thailand, so any criticism of him could be classified as promoting illegal activity then, technically?

That's a little fuzzy, but most likely not, as he isn't directly saying that people should ignore censorship, but rather pointing out how terrible censorship is (as far as I understand it). He does, however, admit to breaking the laws of his own country, and actively shows he has no regrets about it. By site rules that's a punishable offense.

If it were me moderating, and he had simply expressed his hate for Vajiralongkorn and censorship, I definitely would not have taken action against him.
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Punished UMN
Minister
 
Posts: 3430
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:52 am

I'm not exactly a leftist and I seem to do alright.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Prudish. Low-key bisexual. Purgatorial universalist.
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I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
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The Huskar Social Union
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50148
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:03 am

Im left as fuck and i have received multiple warnings and two bans now i think it is. Last one for me was for calling someone a cunt repeatedly iirc and ive seen plenty of other lefties get warned and banned on here too on a frequent basis.

In my opinion it only seems like there is a bias against rightwingers because more rightwingers come on here and just fail to follow the rules completely, and when they get punished as a result they scream bias.

Now are there rulings i have thought were dumb? Absolutely, though i dont think thats because of ideology or anything like that, and all the warnings and bans ive received so far have been well deserved and ive even reported myself multiple times.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ard al Islam
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1028
Founded: Apr 14, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Ard al Islam » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:04 am

If anything, it ain't a safe space for rightists.
Nation in the process of rapid change.
Never learn about Islam from Islamophobes. People that are against Islam, probably aren't the best choice to learn about the religion from. You'd never learn science from a flat-earther or anti-vaxxer, right? You'd learn science from scholars, either directly or through their work. Similarly, you should only learn about Islam from the people who are most knowledgeable about it. They are, of course, the Muslims themselves. Learn from the great Islamic scholars, whether directly or through their work/students. If you have questions, you can ask me, and if I don't have the answer(s), I can refer you to a place where you may get those answers.

But whatever you do, don't learn about Islam from non-Muslims.

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