NationStates

Hello, mods. And everyone else, really, I kinda want this to be an open thread.

Over the past few days it seems like the phrase "all cops are bastards", often simply abbreviated as ACAB, has been cracked down upon with increasing frequency. This phrase, which has been used for decades as a political slogan to decry police brutality and corruption, is considered trolling by NS moderation. Frankly, I disagree with that.

Per the One-Stop Rules Shop (emphasis mine ofc):

Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal. Trollbaiting is the action of making posts that attract trolls. A prime example of trollbaiting would be gloating over the results of an election.

Gloating over punishments handed out to other players is not acceptable. Another form of the offense, IGNORE gloating, is typically seen in the roleplay forums, though it can appear elsewhere. Politely informing another nation that you are henceforth using the "ignore" feature is acceptable, but repeating it in different threads or over long periods is considered gloating and will be dealt with appropriately. Other cases will be considered on an ad hoc basis.

Attempting to dehumanize ethnic or religious groups by referring to them with a lowercase letter and censoring another letter out is not allowed. Calling a group by its proper name is cool. Trolling via censoring it as if it is a profanity -- not cool. Don't do it

Here's why I'd argue that ACAB shouldn't be considered trolling:

1) I agree that comments like "all Jews are (pedos/anti-white/insert-other-antisemitic-comment-here)" are fucking reprehensible and have no place on this forum. However, this is in large part because Jewish people are largely a protected category and face undue discrimination due to their faith and background. Police, on the other hand, suffer no real discrimination due to their career choices. One could argue, in many cases, that they contribute to discrimination in many communities (but that's an argument for another, probably NSG-based thread).

2) Moderation, both in the past and presently, have allowed comments of a more inflammatory nature to be said about people of all sorts of ideologies and religious backgrounds - fascists, communists, radical Islamists, just to name a few. We've allowed out-and-out Nazis on the forums so long as they aren't too loud about their wishes for the extermination of Jews and minorities. In a day and age where, in places like the US and Nigeria and China, police are actively murdering and brutalizing citizens with impunity (and in many cases, full government support), is it really such a radical and offensive notion to say that all cops are bastards?

So, TL;DR - I think NS moderation is making a mistake by considering ACAB to be trolling and would like them to reconsider their position on this.

I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Although my opinion of police is also fairly negative, I think it's better to criticise the system as opposed to the police themselves. You would probably be able to gain more supporters in this way, too.

We have former cops as members of the site. It trolls them.

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Frankly, I have a lot of political opinions that many might consider "rude". I'm not going to try getting into why I'd say "yes, all cops" too much, because again, that's probably best suited for an NSG thread, but even if it isn't necessarily fair to every single cop, it's more of a phrase of legitimate frustration towards law enforcement as an institution rather than a personal attack towards anyone who's ever worn a badge and carried handcuffs.

Sanghyeok wrote:Although my opinion of police is also fairly negative, I think it's better to criticise the system as opposed to the police themselves. You would probably be able to gain more supporters in this way, too.

Agreed, although I do believe that if we stopped looking just at bad things happening, and instead look for the good, we would be way better off and none of this would be occuring now.

It's "All X are Y" because it states 'all X cops are Y bastards', stating all of one group (cops) are a thing or have a certain trait (the state of being a bastard).

So it counting as "All X are Y" trolling seems like a reasonable application of the rules.

Arcturus Novus wrote:

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Frankly, I have a lot of political opinions that many might consider "rude". I'm not going to try getting into why I'd say "yes, all cops" too much, because again, that's probably best suited for an NSG thread, but even if it isn't necessarily fair to every single cop, it's more of a phrase of legitimate frustration towards law enforcement as an institution rather than a personal attack towards anyone who's ever worn a badge and carried handcuffs.

I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

Untecna wrote:

Arcturus Novus wrote:Frankly, I have a lot of political opinions that many might consider "rude". I'm not going to try getting into why I'd say "yes, all cops" too much, because again, that's probably best suited for an NSG thread, but even if it isn't necessarily fair to every single cop, it's more of a phrase of legitimate frustration towards law enforcement as an institution rather than a personal attack towards anyone who's ever worn a badge and carried handcuffs.

I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

Simply put, I'm an anarchist. I am not a fan of police in their current role and function for many reasons. I do not think we need them, especially not how they exist in the modern United States.

Arcturus Novus wrote:

Untecna wrote:I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

Simply put, I'm an anarchist. I am not a fan of police in their current role and function for many reasons. I do not think we need them, especially not how they exist in the modern United States.

Conservatives are red, liberals are blue, the Dems are sad and so are you.

Also, who would replace the police, the military?

Arcturus Novus wrote:

Untecna wrote:I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

Simply put, I'm an anarchist. I am not a fan of police in their current role and function for many reasons. I do not think we need them, especially not how they exist in the modern United States.

Good for you

That doesn't change the situation at hand being that ACAB is an "all X are Y" attack by definition

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Of course it's disagreeable to cops, the slogan is calling them out. It's calling out people with power for misuse of power. Are we supposed to politely ask a group that routinely gets away with murder for a smidgen of human rights?

It meets the definition of all X are Y, so it's pretty clear cut. It's either keep the rule or get rid of it completely, there's no making exceptions for one instance of it.

Tadreodal wrote:

Arcturus Novus wrote:Simply put, I'm an anarchist. I am not a fan of police in their current role and function for many reasons. I do not think we need them, especially not how they exist in the modern United States.

Good for you

That doesn't change the situation at hand being that ACAB is an "all X are Y" attack by definition

I simply think it's a double-standard as to what's acceptable on the forums and what isn't. As I've said above, we have self-identified fascists and Nazis on the forums here and nobody in moderation bats an eye. But the phrase ACAB is suddenly unacceptable. It hasn't even been uniformly enforced; my region has had the acronym in its RMB since March and no one has batted an eye til a day or two ago.

An-Tanwir wrote:

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Of course it's disagreeable to cops, the slogan is calling them out. It's calling out people with power for misuse of power. Are we supposed to politely ask a group that routinely gets away with murder for a smidgen of human rights?

The slogan is a perfect example of exactly what the rules forbid though, so making an exception for it is...difficult.

Edit: It's the same thing as saying "all men abuse" and "all blacks are criminals", blanket statements which smear all members of a group as being or doing negative things.

An-Tanwir wrote:

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Of course it's disagreeable to cops, the slogan is calling them out. It's calling out people with power for misuse of power. Are we supposed to politely ask a group that routinely gets away with murder for a smidgen of human rights?

it would make more sense if you directed it towards SARS, aka the unit that is currently murdering innocent civilians in Nigeria due to extreme corruption.

An-Tanwir wrote:

Untecna wrote:I am no moderator, but uh... calling all cops that... that's kind of derogatory to them, don't you think? Most police officers are trying to keep up safe, and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! Saying "ACAB" is just plain rude, and while it's not really trolling, I can see it as a flame.

Of course it's disagreeable to cops, the slogan is calling them out. It's calling out people with power for misuse of power. Are we supposed to politely ask a group that routinely gets away with murder for a smidgen of human rights?

First off, thank you for a reply. Second off, "ACAB" is as much of a flame as other things that I can't say here or else the mods will smite me, and it is an attack to people who keep order. Again: and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! What do you think I meant here? We shouldn't look down on a group because of something a member or members did, we should look up at the ones that went above and beyond in their work.

Also, to Arcturus Nova, the reason Nazis, fascists, communists, and those other extremes are allowed is because of political freedoms and civil rights.

It's a pretty simple rule to follow... If mods make an exception with "ACAB" then other users would argue that they should make a exception of "all liberals are y" or "all communist are y" comments.

Just gonna move this here:

Cordel One wrote:

Servilis wrote:What's the problem?
Neither of them are wrong.
In my opinion, yes, cops are class traitors, there is no such thing as a good cop, you can give examples of cops doing nice things but they're still class traitors nonetheless.
And why shouldn't a person be allowed to call cops "pigs", people have been calling cops "pigs" for years, they chose to be cops, they weren't born cops, you know who was born the way they are? Minorities, the same minorities that cops became cops just to shit on.

And the user was being a rabid racist, albeit trying to hide it with "but... but... the person I agree with was black..", tokenism is just rabid...

I would like to add in a less edgy way a similar issue I have with Moderation on this issue. Bcause of the way the rules are set up, a user could go as far as to nearly advocate genocide but the moment an individual replies saying that all people involved in the genocide are bad a line is crossed. Now, while police aren't quite that horrible the system they serve is racist, meaning it's part of the job to enforce an unjust hierarchy.

Anyways, "all X are Y "should be eliminated as a rule, and maybe adding some rules against some of the worst racism would be good.

Untecna wrote:

Arcturus Novus wrote:Frankly, I have a lot of political opinions that many might consider "rude". I'm not going to try getting into why I'd say "yes, all cops" too much, because again, that's probably best suited for an NSG thread, but even if it isn't necessarily fair to every single cop, it's more of a phrase of legitimate frustration towards law enforcement as an institution rather than a personal attack towards anyone who's ever worn a badge and carried handcuffs.

I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

It absolutely is an attack on police officers. Police officers are the ones routinely committing acts of unnecessary violence and getting away with it. The ones that aren't are helping cover it up. The blue wall of silence is a widely documented thing. And defenders of racially-charged violence have rallied behind the police. I doubt I need to show you all the videos of cops utilizing far-right militias against BLM protesters.

When police officers get rid of the blue wall of silence, when the militarization budget is moved towards enriching communities, when all police departments strictly enforce conservative use-of-force policies, when being a damn KKK member excludes you from being a cop, and when murderers face consequences, then the interests of cops and the people will no longer be diametrically opposed, and ACAB will cease to be true.

Cordel One wrote:Just gonna move this here:

Cordel One wrote:I would like to add in a less edgy way a similar issue I have with Moderation on this issue. Bcause of the way the rules are set up, a user could go as far as to nearly advocate genocide but the moment an individual replies saying that all people involved in the genocide are bad a line is crossed. Now, while police aren't quite that horrible the system they serve is racist, meaning it's part of the job to enforce an unjust hierarchy.

Anyways, "all X are Y "should be eliminated as a rule, and maybe adding some rules against some of the worst racism would be good.

I think this is probably the most even-handed take on the issue. I've seen a lot of sketchy shit fly under the mods' radar in the 10 or so years I've been posting here. A rework of the rules might not be a bad thing.

Surely though, making a statement about All [people that choose to be a thing] are [bad thing]is a million miles different to "All [people who are a thing not by choice] are [bad thing]".
Edit: ...and therefore surely need to be moderated differently.

An-Tanwir wrote:

Untecna wrote:I understand you may have different beliefs towards politics, but saying "ACAB" is an attack to police officers. Without them, who would keep order? Without them, how much crime would there be? You have to actually think here, bud, and not use basic knowledge for your point.

It absolutely is an attack on police officers. Police officers are the ones routinely committing acts of unnecessary violence and getting away with it. The ones that aren't are helping cover it up. The blue wall of silence is a widely documented thing. And defenders of racially-charged violence have rallied behind the police. I doubt I need to show you all the videos of cops utilizing far-right militias against BLM protesters.

When police officers get rid of the blue wall of silence, when the militarization budget is moved towards enriching communities, when all police departments strictly enforce conservative use-of-force policies, when being a damn KKK member excludes you from being a cop, and when murderers face consequences, then the interests of cops and the people will no longer be diametrically opposed, and ACAB will cease to be true.

Really? Since when is "ACAB" a true statement?

An-Tanwir wrote:when murderers face consequences

well this one's ironic