[Discussion] ACAB as "all X are Y" trolling

[Cordel One]

Just gonna move this here:

I think this is probably the most even-handed take on the issue. I've seen a lot of sketchy shit fly under the mods' radar in the 10 or so years I've been posting here. A rework of the rules might not be a bad thing.

Thank you, It's not easy to explain why a line shouldn't be there without crossing it.

It absolutely is an attack on police officers. Police officers are the ones routinely committing acts of unnecessary violence and getting away with it. The ones that aren't are helping cover it up. The blue wall of silence is a widely documented thing. And defenders of racially-charged violence have rallied behind the police. I doubt I need to show you all the videos of cops utilizing far-right militias against BLM protesters.

When police officers get rid of the blue wall of silence, when the militarization budget is moved towards enriching communities, when all police departments strictly enforce conservative use-of-force policies, when being a damn KKK member excludes you from being a cop, and when murderers face consequences, then the interests of cops and the people will no longer be diametrically opposed, and ACAB will cease to be true.

Really? Since when is "ACAB" a true statement?

I could answer and I'm sure An-Tanwir could too, but that would result in a mod warning.

[Stellar Colonies]

Whether or not ACAB is true, what it expresses is exactly what the rule is intended against (claiming that all members of a group are or behave a certain thing or way).

[Aeritai]

Just gonna move this here:

I think this is probably the most even-handed take on the issue. I've seen a lot of sketchy shit fly under the mods' radar in the 10 or so years I've been posting here. A rework of the rules might not be a bad thing.

Sketchy? I'm pretty sure people on the right have been banned for saying some extreme stuff before.

[Cordel One]

I think this is probably the most even-handed take on the issue. I've seen a lot of sketchy shit fly under the mods' radar in the 10 or so years I've been posting here. A rework of the rules might not be a bad thing.

Sketchy? I'm pretty sure people on the right have been banned for saying some extreme stuff before.

I forget who did it, but someone put the number of warnings and bans by ideology on a chart and it did hit the left harder.

[Kiu Ghesik]

Sketchy? I'm pretty sure people on the right have been banned for saying some extreme stuff before.

I forget who did it, but someone put the number of warnings and bans by ideology on a chart and it did hit the left harder.

Aren't there just more left-wing users on the site in general, though? The chart would need to be by percentage rather than number to be an accurate analysis, I think.

[An-Tanwir]

Again: and sure, there are some bad fruits on the tree, but there are still good ones! What do you think I meant here? We shouldn't look down on a group because of something a member or members did, we should look up at the ones that went above and beyond in their work.

You're taking the phrase out of the context of BLM. ACAB, as popularly used today, arose after these events repeated themselves several times in the course of a few months: A cop kills an unarmed black person, is not punished by the department nor the law due to his status as a police officer, and those same departments using lethal force against those protesting against unjustified police killings.

If the "good cops" receive an order to tear gas civilians and does not think it an abomination, those cops have been brainwashed by police culture to oppose justice, and thus aren't "good". If they choose not to attack civilians, they are fired, and thus aren't cops.

[An-Tanwir]

when murderers face consequences

well this one's ironic

It certainly is.

something something who watches the watchers

[Aeritai]

Sketchy? I'm pretty sure people on the right have been banned for saying some extreme stuff before.

I forget who did it, but someone put the number of warnings and bans by ideology on a chart and it did hit the left harder.

Really? Because when the Right-Wing Thread was around, the mods came down hard on that thread than the Left-Wing thread.

If I am wrong on this, please do correct me!

[Arcturus Novus]

I forget who did it, but someone put the number of warnings and bans by ideology on a chart and it did hit the left harder.

Aren't there just more left-wing users on the site in general, though? The chart would need to be by percentage rather than number to be an accurate analysis, I think.

That's entirely contingent on how you define "left-wing". Do I think there's a lot of liberals and progressives? Yeah, probably. But do I think there's an especially high amount of communists and anarchists? Outside of a relatively small and loud contingent on the forums, no.

[Ethel mermania]

I forget who did it, but someone put the number of warnings and bans by ideology on a chart and it did hit the left harder.

Aren't there just more left-wing users on the site in general, though? The chart would need to be by percentage rather than number to be an accurate analysis, I think.

Yes the site skews left. Which is understandable based on the general age group of the site.

[Kiu Ghesik]

That's entirely contingent on how you define "left-wing". Do I think there's a lot of liberals and progressives? Yeah, probably. But do I think there's an especially high amount of communists and anarchists? Outside of a relatively small and loud contingent on the forums, no.

Very true, the terms are quite nebulous. Which I think would also contribute to uncertainty in the analysis.

[Ethel mermania]

to the topic I dont see all cops are bastards as any better then all leftists are morons.

I think it is reasonable to slam either opinion with a warning.

[Federative States of America]

Lets do some math

ACAB = All Cops Are Bastards

All X Are Y = AXAY

All = All, or a statement of the absolute; clearly applies in both cases

Are = Are, or a state of being

Therefore,

ACAB = AXAY = Trolling. Follow the rules

[Cordel One]

Aren't there just more left-wing users on the site in general, though? The chart would need to be by percentage rather than number to be an accurate analysis, I think.

That's entirely contingent on how you define "left-wing". Do I think there's a lot of liberals and progressives? Yeah, probably. But do I think there's an especially high amount of communists and anarchists? Outside of a relatively small and loud contingent on the forums, no.

The "loud" bit is probably what gets us into trouble.

Lets do some math
ACAB = All Cops Are Bastards
All X Are Y = AXAY
All = All, or a statement of the absolute; clearly applies in both cases
Are = Are, or a state of being
Therefore,
ACAB = AXAY = Trolling. Follow the rules

That doesn't make the rule right to begin with.

[An-Tanwir]

Here are some useful studies on police bias against POC.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12269
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/30/1821204116
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/puar.12956

Debunk of various studies that show "anti-white bias"
Debunk of https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 by the original authors

these sources are all from the Source Library (which has a discord server that I am BEGGING you to join if you have self-admittedly "out-there" views that a group of teenage leftists would find funny)

[Kiu Ghesik]

That's entirely contingent on how you define "left-wing". Do I think there's a lot of liberals and progressives? Yeah, probably. But do I think there's an especially high amount of communists and anarchists? Outside of a relatively small and loud contingent on the forums, no.

The "loud" bit is probably what gets us into trouble.

Yeah, all the loud far-righters get the boot within about five seconds of opening their mouths. Their opinions are... far more disagreeable.

Lets do some math
ACAB = All Cops Are Bastards
All X Are Y = AXAY
All = All, or a statement of the absolute; clearly applies in both cases
Are = Are, or a state of being
Therefore,
ACAB = AXAY = Trolling. Follow the rules

That doesn't make the rule right to begin with.

All X are Y also refers primarily to groups that one is inherently part of, as well, I think. After all, a cursory reading of the rule suggests so. And one doesn't have to be a cop. I don't particularly like the slogan, because I think it's just a hostile one-liner that turns debates into shitshows, but I don't think it falls under "all X are Y" as written.

[Ethel mermania]

Here are some useful studies on police bias against POC.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12269
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/30/1821204116
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/puar.12956

Debunk of various studies that show "anti-white bias"
Debunk of https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 by the original authors

these sources are all from the Source Library (which has a discord server that I am BEGGING you to join if you have self-admittedly "out-there" views that a group of teenage leftists would find funny)

Which has zero to do with is ACAB, all x is y?

[Antarcticanie]

Ok, first of all, ACAB isn't even factually true since not all cops are born out of wedlock, so get owned, libtard. Second, I'm not really going to say I'm pro-police here. I'm not. I am not universally pro-police. If police one day started snatching up people's guns, I would be anti-police. If one day, there was absolute incriminating evidence to show that all cops, or at least a vast, vast majority were unjustly discriminating against minorities, I would be anti-police. But with both of the above scenarios, not universally. Only a commie deals in absolutes. I hope I don't sound like I'm rambling, I'm just trying to get my point across.

[An-Tanwir]

Only a commie deals in absolutes.

Communism: its when *star wars quote*

[Kiu Ghesik]

Only a commie deals in absolutes.

Communism: its when *star wars quote*

Communism: its when General Kenobi.

Ok, first of all, ACAB isn't even factually true since not all cops are born out of wedlock, so get owned, libtard. Second, I'm not really going to say I'm pro-police here. I'm not. I am not universally pro-police. If police one day started snatching up people's guns, I would be anti-police. If one day, there was absolute incriminating evidence to show that all cops, or at least a vast, vast majority were unjustly discriminating against minorities, I would be anti-police. But with both of the above scenarios, not universally. Only a commie deals in absolutes. I hope I don't sound like I'm rambling, I'm just trying to get my point across.

We're... discussing whether or not it's a case of all X are Y, not whether cops are good people or not.

[The New California Republic]

Ok, first of all, ACAB isn't even factually true since not all cops are born out of wedlock, so get owned, libtard.

Some flaming here, just to draw the Mod's attention to it.

[Radicalania]

Okay, I'll bite; Say you work for a company that frequently gets off legally from killing people, and its proven that even by their own standards, they were wrong to do so- wouldnt you walk? Wouldnt staying with that company make you compliant in those murders, or at the very least loosely supportive of the system that allows it. There are very very very few cops who speak out against this behaviour, or actively challenge it. Surely that's a problem with police culture?

[Sedgistan]

"ACAB" is textbook trolling. I see 0% chance of the team changing our view on that. If you think it's been "cracked down on" recently, it's likely because more people have been using that phrase. There's been no change of policy on that phrase by us. If someone posted it in March and only got smacked for it now - that'll be because it was only spotted now. We rely on reports to moderate the site, so not everything is spotted immediately.

It's worth noting that "all x is y" is not a rule, despite frequently being mistakenly cited as one. It's merely a guideline to a common form of trolling.

Here are some useful studies on police bias against POC.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12269
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/07/30/1821204116
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/puar.12956

Debunk of various studies that show "anti-white bias"
Debunk of https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 by the original authors

these sources are all from the Source Library (which has a discord server that I am BEGGING you to join if you have self-admittedly "out-there" views that a group of teenage leftists would find funny)

This has nothing to do with the discsussion here.

Ok, first of all, ACAB isn't even factually true since not all cops are born out of wedlock, so get owned, libtard. <snip>

*** Warned for flaming ***

Thread unlocked again.

[Radicalania]

If ACAB IS ruled as trolling, but not all "All X are Y" is ruled as trolling, how have moderators come to the conclusion that ACAB is trolling?

Seperately, if it's a question of bastardry being a real thing, would a more acceptable form be, for example "All Cops are D*ckheads", which is more commonly seen as an opinion? Or is it only acceptable if an explanation is attached (edited in)? How is the line separated between what is tolerable on NS, and what isn't? And why are Police apparently a protected characteristic.

2nd edit (I think): Would a discussion thread be allowed if it states something along the lines of "In this thread we assume police are negatively impacting on society..."

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Although my opinion of police is also fairly negative, I think it's better to criticise the system as opposed to the police themselves. You would probably be able to gain more supporters in this way, too.

Agreed, although I do believe that if we stopped looking just at bad things happening, and instead look for the good, we would be way better off and none of this would be occuring now.

Balance is all well and good, but it’s impossible to ignore the brutality committed by certain police officers and departments around the country. Is not as easy as suggesting we “kumbayah guys”. More so if it looks like nothing it not enough is getting done.

Let’s try not to turn toxic positive. There is nothing wrong about discussing and demanding change and true action when police brutality occurs.