[Discussion] ACAB as "all X are Y" trolling

[Ethel mermania]

really dont know what ACAB is.

All cops are bastards.

[Nova Vandalia]

I'm sorry but reading over this thread it's kind of mind blowing refusal to actually examine the meaning and context that ACAB has become, and it's pretty blatant to me at least this was purposeful to make their argument seems justified. ACAB among the community that uses it is while accepted as a criticism of the institution and not the individual, it's been purposely ripped out of context in this discussion to devalue that. It's been a political statement since at least the 1970's.

Are we now banning political statements and sayings? Does this mean we can get rid of a thin blue line sigs, and comments? I would also assume this extends the other so people can't say all Cop are hero's as well?

It doesn't make a difference if it's intended as a political statement or not. It's by the most literal definition an "all X are Y" comment.

All
Cops = X group
Are
Bastards = Y negative thing

I don't see how this could be the slightest bit unclear.

I absolutely does make a difference if we're not letting our mods be guided by context and telling them every single thing must be judged without the context of the world, then to put it plainly my friend, the entire forum should be banned.

Also if that all this boils down to, then we can't criticize any group in a negative light is what you're suggesting by the ridiculous measure you proposed above?

Doesn't mean it's acceptable on the forums.

Strong argument there my friend, my argument is that it should be because of the context.

No.

Then it shouldn't be banned plain and simple

The intent is different, so no.

The intent may be different but the statement is harmful. Tell George Floyd's family all cops are heros, tell that to Rayshard Brooks, Daniel Prude, Breonna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson.

What this is is blatantly seeking to silence criticisms of an institution, it's not difference than saying Don't criticize America or The Church.

[The Reformed American Republic]

really dont know what ACAB is.

All cops are bastards.

Indeed.


"ACAB" isn't a more intelligent phrase than "All leftists are scum," "All conservatives are scum," etc. It's one thing to say that a disproportionate amount of cops are bad people who do bad things, but it's another to use an unintelligent generalization that is meant to get people riled up and really isn't helpful in discourse. Condemnation of the police as an institution, the people who do bad things, etc is not forbidden here. Just word your posts intelligently and without generalizations.

[Thermodolia]

ACAB is a textbook case of "all x are y" trolling, used in an offensive manner against the police.

Just read the OP.
I fully agree with mods if they don't tolerate ACAB or any other "all X are Y". Even though there are cops that have other morals than you would expect from a cop, as demonstrated in multiple parts of the world recently, this doesn't automatically imply that all cops are like that. So, ACAB, like any other "all X are Y", simply isn't true.
But more importantly, it is highly offensive to anyone here who works as a policeman, wants to become one, or has friends or family who do. It is needlessly offensive and should have no place on this forum or anywhere else.
(Image)

That's the thing, they chose to be cops.

You chose to be left wing. Would you be fine with people saying “all leftists are morons”?

[The New California Republic]

Doesn't mean it's acceptable on the forums.

Strong argument there my friend, my argument is that it should be because of the context.

It doesn't need a strong argument to refute what you said, as context has never appeared to excuse trolling before, so why should it now?

No.

Then it shouldn't be banned plain and simple

"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.

The intent is different, so no.

The intent may be different but the statement is harmful. Tell George Floyd's family all cops are heros, tell that to Rayshard Brooks, Daniel Prude, Breonna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson.

What this is is blatantly seeking to silence criticisms of an institution, it's not difference than saying Don't criticize America or The Church.

As the rules say, it's the intent that matters.

[Nova Vandalia]

All cops are bastards.

Indeed.


"ACAB" isn't a more intelligent phrase than "All leftists are scum," "All conservatives are scum," etc. It's one thing to say that a disproportionate amount of cops are bad people who do bad things, but it's another to use an unintelligent generalization that is meant to get people riled up and really isn't helpful in discourse. Condemnation of the police as an institution, the people who do bad things, etc is not forbidden here. Just word your posts intelligently and without generalizations.

It's is a brief summary of that with over 40 years of criticism towards the institution behind the phrase, so it is quite vastly different considering it's history of use in Anarchist Protests, and anti-police protests. You're saying that 40 years of the meaning should be disregarded, which is ludicrous and only seeks to push one side of this narrative, which shows that you're I'm trying to neutral stance is complete bull.

[Servilis]

i know i just said im not gonna be involved in this thread, but thats where one of my original issues lay, the definition of trolling used in the rules section

i dont see "all x are y" as a good definition to define trolling,
a better definition would be "mayhem", and, fun fact actually, "mayhem" is actually a legal term


thats right, you can get arrested for causing a ruckus, just saying, anyways

i dont see the logic in "why should there be exceptions", why not have exceptions, exceptions can be important, and in fact, "all children are aged between 0-18", which, in itself, well, depending on where you're from, is a true statement, and, under the trolling definition, would be considered an act of trolling because its "all x are y", which effectively rules saying things like that as a form of trolling, and thus can be bannable, meaning moderators have some more free extra ban hammers to throw, hence why exceptions are imporant.

None of that says anything as to why there should be exceptions in clear instances where it is trolling.

And no, tautologies like your example, "all children are aged between 0-18", are not trolling, as there is no intent to anger behind it; there is more than an adequate number of precedents to show what is actually meant by all X are Y, so spurious interpretations such as the example you used just aren't credible.

Yeah except it's an "all x are y" statement, and thus it would count as trolling.
And you wanna know why?
Because the poorly designed definition of trolling that Nationstates moderators so finely put out makes it so.

[Servilis]

That's the thing, they chose to be cops.

You chose to be left wing. Would you be fine with people saying “all leftists are morons”?

I wouldn't be fine with it, but I don't think you should be forbidden from saying it.
It's a debatable subject.

When it comes to things that can't be chosen, e.g. race, then it's not a debatable subject.

[Thermodolia]

Indeed.


"ACAB" isn't a more intelligent phrase than "All leftists are scum," "All conservatives are scum," etc. It's one thing to say that a disproportionate amount of cops are bad people who do bad things, but it's another to use an unintelligent generalization that is meant to get people riled up and really isn't helpful in discourse. Condemnation of the police as an institution, the people who do bad things, etc is not forbidden here. Just word your posts intelligently and without generalizations.

It's is a brief summary of that with over 40 years of criticism towards the institution behind the phrase, so it is quite vastly different considering it's history of use in Anarchist Protests, and anti-police protests. You're saying that 40 years of the meaning should be disregarded, which is ludicrous and only seeks to push one side of this narrative, which shows that you're I'm trying to neutral stance is complete bull.

Oh give it a rest. It’s trolling. Take it or leave it. No amount of whining is going to change it. Just do what the rest of us do and show your disapproval without resorting to trolling.

If that’s too hard well then you need to find a new place to hang out

[Thermodolia]

You chose to be left wing. Would you be fine with people saying “all leftists are morons”?

I wouldn't be fine with it, but I don't think you should be forbidden from saying it.
It's a debatable subject.

When it comes to things that can't be chosen, e.g. race, then it's not a debatable subject.

Fair enough.

However the mods have clearly stated it won’t change

[The New California Republic]

None of that says anything as to why there should be exceptions in clear instances where it is trolling.

And no, tautologies like your example, "all children are aged between 0-18", are not trolling, as there is no intent to anger behind it; there is more than an adequate number of precedents to show what is actually meant by all X are Y, so spurious interpretations such as the example you used just aren't credible.

Yeah except it's an "all x are y" statement, and thus it would count as trolling.
And you wanna know why?
Because the poorly designed definition of trolling that Nationstates moderators so finely put out makes it so.

If we look at the rules in terms of how they have written them:

Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling.

What they have written there makes it clear that a tautology like "all children are aged between 0-18" doesn't count.

[Servilis]

"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.

My friend, buddy, chum, pal, friend, I must inform you, that what is occurring here, is that a political phrase known as "ACAB" or "All Cops Are Bastards" has been banned.
For someone who I used to think was quite inclusive, you are very tone-deaf.

[Nova Vandalia]

Strong argument there my friend, my argument is that it should be because of the context.

It doesn't need a strong argument to refute what you said, as context has never appeared to excuse trolling before, so why should it now?

Then it shouldn't be banned plain and simple

"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.

The intent may be different but the statement is harmful. Tell George Floyd's family all cops are heros, tell that to Rayshard Brooks, Daniel Prude, Breonna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson.

What this is is blatantly seeking to silence criticisms of an institution, it's not difference than saying Don't criticize America or The Church.

As the rules say, it's the intent that matters.

If funny how you say in it's the intent that matters in one breath and then refuse to accept the intent of the ACAB terminology, I mean that is blatantly hypocritical for a first.

And it to your first point it doesn't refute it, the context has largely been taken into account by the Mods and that all I am asking continue to happen here. If people use ACAB to be purposefully trolling sure Mod them, but a blanket ban removes the history behind the statement, and a large swath of the history of protests against police violence. And removal of a political statement is exactly what is happening here, let them decided if the statement is inflamatory, not if it needs a damn blanket ban. Let the Mods do their job.

[Servilis]

Yeah except it's an "all x are y" statement, and thus it would count as trolling.
And you wanna know why?
Because the poorly designed definition of trolling that Nationstates moderators so finely put out makes it so.

If we look at the rules in terms of how they have written them:

Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling.

What they have written there makes it clear that a tautology like "all children are aged between 0-18" doesn't count.

Actually no, I'm pretty sure some Pedophiles would be pretty angered by that statement.

[Servilis]

It doesn't need a strong argument to refute what you said, as context has never appeared to excuse trolling before, so why should it now?


"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.


As the rules say, it's the intent that matters.

If funny how you say in it's the intent that matters in one breath and then refuse to accept the intent of the ACAB terminology, I mean that is blatantly hypocritical for a first.

And it to your first point it doesn't refute it, the context has largely been taken into account by the Mods and that all I am asking continue to happen here. If people use ACAB to be purposefully trolling sure Mod them, but a blanket ban removes the history behind the statement, and a large swath of the history of protests against police violence. And removal of a political statement is exactly what is happening here, let them decided if the statement is inflamatory, not if it needs a damn blanket ban. Let the Mods do their job.

[The New California Republic]

"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.

My friend, buddy, chum, pal, friend, I must inform you, that what is occurring here, is that a political phrase known as "ACAB" or "All Cops Are Bastards" has been banned.
For someone who I used to think was quite inclusive, you are very tone-deaf.

What I'm saying is that since it's based on the rules as written then it isn't the reason for it being banned from acceptable use.

[Servilis]

It's is a brief summary of that with over 40 years of criticism towards the institution behind the phrase, so it is quite vastly different considering it's history of use in Anarchist Protests, and anti-police protests. You're saying that 40 years of the meaning should be disregarded, which is ludicrous and only seeks to push one side of this narrative, which shows that you're I'm trying to neutral stance is complete bull.

Oh give it a rest. It’s trolling. Take it or leave it. No amount of whining is going to change it. Just do what the rest of us do and show your disapproval without resorting to trolling.

If that’s too hard well then you need to find a new place to hang out

yeah, except, we're not going to do what the rest of you do.
because we're Leftists, not Centrists.
if we don't like something, we try to change it.
it's going to take a lot more than that to convince us to give up.

[Servilis]

My friend, buddy, chum, pal, friend, I must inform you, that what is occurring here, is that a political phrase known as "ACAB" or "All Cops Are Bastards" has been banned.
For someone who I used to think was quite inclusive, you are very tone-deaf.

What I'm saying is that since it's based on the rules as written then it isn't the reason for it being banned from acceptable use.

What I'm saying is that you're jumping from argument to argument for your convenience.
Explain to me how a political statement being banned is not what is happening here.
Explain to me how the definition used for trolling on this website is robust and logical.

[Thermodolia]

"banning political statements and sayings" is different from what is happening here.

My friend, buddy, chum, pal, friend, I must inform you, that what is occurring here, is that a political phrase known as "ACAB" or "All Cops Are Bastards" has been banned.
For someone who I used to think was quite inclusive, you are very tone-deaf.

If that is a political phrase than everything is political.

[Servilis]

I wouldn't be fine with it, but I don't think you should be forbidden from saying it.
It's a debatable subject.

When it comes to things that can't be chosen, e.g. race, then it's not a debatable subject.

Fair enough.

However the mods have clearly stated it won’t change

That won't stop us from trying to change it, mate. As I've said, Leftists are extremists, not moderates.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Indeed.


"ACAB" isn't a more intelligent phrase than "All leftists are scum," "All conservatives are scum," etc. It's one thing to say that a disproportionate amount of cops are bad people who do bad things, but it's another to use an unintelligent generalization that is meant to get people riled up and really isn't helpful in discourse. Condemnation of the police as an institution, the people who do bad things, etc is not forbidden here. Just word your posts intelligently and without generalizations.

It's is a brief summary of that with over 40 years of criticism towards the institution behind the phrase, so it is quite vastly different considering it's history of use in Anarchist Protests, and anti-police protests. You're saying that 40 years of the meaning should be disregarded, which is ludicrous and only seeks to push one side of this narrative, which shows that you're I'm trying to neutral stance is complete bull.

I'm sure other political groups have similar stories, but it doesn't give them authorization to troll in that matter, and neither should it give you permission either.

[Servilis]

My friend, buddy, chum, pal, friend, I must inform you, that what is occurring here, is that a political phrase known as "ACAB" or "All Cops Are Bastards" has been banned.
For someone who I used to think was quite inclusive, you are very tone-deaf.

If that is a political phrase than everything is political.

That makes as much sense as saying "if a tomato is a fruit then everything is a fruit".

[Aeritai]

Oh give it a rest. It’s trolling. Take it or leave it. No amount of whining is going to change it. Just do what the rest of us do and show your disapproval without resorting to trolling.

If that’s too hard well then you need to find a new place to hang out

yeah, except, we're not going to do what the rest of you do.
because we're Leftists, not Centrists.
if we don't like something, we try to change it.
it's going to take a lot more than that to convince us to give up.

Good luck trying to change it... Mods have made it pretty clear they're not going to change the rule.

[Servilis]

It's is a brief summary of that with over 40 years of criticism towards the institution behind the phrase, so it is quite vastly different considering it's history of use in Anarchist Protests, and anti-police protests. You're saying that 40 years of the meaning should be disregarded, which is ludicrous and only seeks to push one side of this narrative, which shows that you're I'm trying to neutral stance is complete bull.

I'm sure other political groups have similar stories, but it doesn't give them authorization to troll in that matter, and neither should it give you permission either.

Yeah but under an informal and standard setting, it wouldn't be trolling now would it.

As I just stated, defining trolling as "causing mayhem" is a way better definition, even more-so the fact that mayhem is funnily enough, recognised as a legal term.

[The New California Republic]

If funny how you say in it's the intent that matters in one breath and then refuse to accept the intent of the ACAB terminology, I mean that is blatantly hypocritical for a first.

Sorry but as others have pointed out, calling all cops "bastards" isn't benign in any way, there is an intent there to offend.

What I'm saying is that since it's based on the rules as written then it isn't the reason for it being banned from acceptable use.

What I'm saying is that you're jumping from argument to argument for your convenience.

Not at all, it was the meaning of what I said from the beginning.