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[Discussion] ACAB as "all X are Y" trolling

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Kind of a poor example, as (correct me if I'm wrong) you can probably get away with occasionally mentioning sex in the abstract sense. So long as you don't make a thing out of it, or get explicit.
I believe that discussion came up as part of the existence of the Abortion Discussion Thread.


I feel like ACAB is a bad example on your all part when Anarchist theory had adopted it a rally cry as have several other communities. Again I'm not saying that it should be allowed every time, but if it is explicitly used in the way you all accuse it is used "EVERYTIME" then sure, but it shouldn't be a blanket ban, because it's going to punish, the anti-police sides talks about theory and rhetoric, and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in that ask, to simply remove it as a blanket immediately banned statement.

If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:12 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:Except very rarely do we use Mate in my area of the English speaking world to mean friend. It's kinda super rare, and it still take in outside context to get there and understand it's usage in the moment. Which is all I'm all asking, so even if you consider it a bad example, can you at least agree that a blanket ban on the term is not needed? I mean hell they can still choose that every usage of it is and has been offensive, but disallowing the discussion of it's use in political theory, when it has been used in said for 40+ years is ridiculous.

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:
I feel like ACAB is a bad example on your all part when Anarchist theory had adopted it a rally cry as have several other communities. Again I'm not saying that it should be allowed every time, but if it is explicitly used in the way you all accuse it is used "EVERYTIME" then sure, but it shouldn't be a blanket ban, because it's going to punish, the anti-police sides talks about theory and rhetoric, and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in that ask, to simply remove it as a blanket immediately banned statement.

If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you


We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.
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VW53Aland
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Postby VW53Aland » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:21 am

Servilis wrote:That's the thing, they chose to be cops.

True. So?
How does that make it okay for you to call them bastards?
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:22 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

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But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:25 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:Except very rarely do we use Mate in my area of the English speaking world to mean friend. It's kinda super rare, and it still take in outside context to get there and understand it's usage in the moment. Which is all I'm all asking, so even if you consider it a bad example, can you at least agree that a blanket ban on the term is not needed? I mean hell they can still choose that every usage of it is and has been offensive, but disallowing the discussion of it's use in political theory, when it has been used in said for 40+ years is ridiculous.

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?


I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective. I'm sorry you didn't hear me the first 20 times I've said it. And I am saying if it used in this manner, in an earnest discussion leave it, if the mods read it that way. I can't even talk about it usage in current events if y'all had it your way, or when discussing Fred Hampton if I wanted to, or when discussing modern anrcho-mutualist theory.

You're example of LGBTQ+ Hate Speech I agree should be banned, but a person who has experienced that hate to say I can't use it as an example of what I've faced because it's on a no no list when telling about my experience as a bisexual person is ridiculous. You expect the mods to take context into their decision, and that's all I'm asking for here.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:29 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.


You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:32 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you


We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

On the right so is "all leftists are morons", doesn't mean its ok to say here.
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:33 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

That's tame. "Gas the Kikes" is a very bad political slogan used by neo-Nazis, and a good example of what shouldn't be allowed even though it's political.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:33 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?


I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.


You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.

No I'm not, I'm just letting you see the very bad can of worms that is waiting as you are brandishing that can opener.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:35 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:
I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

Many who make the statement probably don't make that distinction either.

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Postby Alvecia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:36 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.


You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.

I mean, in this situation the difference between calling someone a bastard and calling for someone's death is kinda irrelevant, as both are rule breaking regardless.

And again, I'll note that the onus is not on Moderation or the userbase to determine the context behind rule breaking behaviour.
I'll point again once more to insults between friends as a comparable rulebreaking scenario.
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:36 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:
I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.


https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:39 am

Heres some more while where at it

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ac ... 43386.html

https://registerforum.org/12197/opinion ... n-america/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18734 ... -say-acab/

https://www.mic.com/p/the-story-behind- ... e-22992554

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the ... ry-of-acab

https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/what-d ... mean-1312/

But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban. I can keep going to show it has a history of being used in my way if y'all need to me. I mean there is a plethora of sources.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby VW53Aland » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:42 am

[...] expect the mods to take context into their decision [...]

I believe mods do take context into consideration.
Proof?
This whole topic is still here.
So for instance using ACAB in the context of discussing whether it is okay to use ACAB on this forum is acceptable, but using ACAB to express your opinion that all cops are bastards is not.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:42 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:Heres some more while where at it


But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban.

The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:43 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?


I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective. I'm sorry you didn't hear me the first 20 times I've said it. And I am saying if it used in this manner, in an earnest discussion leave it, if the mods read it that way. I can't even talk about it usage in current events if y'all had it your way, or when discussing Fred Hampton if I wanted to, or when discussing modern anrcho-mutualist theory.

You're example of LGBTQ+ Hate Speech I agree should be banned, but a person who has experienced that hate to say I can't use it as an example of what I've faced because it's on a no no list when telling about my experience as a bisexual person is ridiculous. You expect the mods to take context into their decision, and that's all I'm asking for here.

You can explain what you want to whoever you want, it doesn't make it a fact, and doesn't make it not a slur.

All cops are bastards targets every cop, good or bad simply for participating in the institution of police work. Its not targeted at subset of cops but all cops by the virtue of them being cops.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:44 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.


https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:46 am

Alvecia wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:Heres some more while where at it


But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban.

The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.


Because the Anti-Police Movement is real Niche in 2020.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:47 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.


Because the Anti-Police Movement is real Niche in 2020.

Usage of ACAB in your particular context amongst the general population is, yes.
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:47 am

The New California Republic wrote:

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

Plus, if you're going after the institution, why can't they just say that the institution is corrupt and should be abolished? That's not rulebreaking and supposedly makes the same point, without the controversy.

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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:47 am

The New California Republic wrote:

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.


So we can't use words with more than one meaning because we can't trust the mods to ferret it out? Oof, you must hold them in high regards.
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:48 am

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

Plus, if you're going after the institution, why can't they just say that the institution is corrupt and should be abolished? That's not rulebreaking and supposedly makes the same point, without the controversy.


Because ACAB does that, and has more power and history behind it's meaning, it's a powerful statement, that's why we're having a discussion over it. It moves people.
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Postby Cordel One » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:49 am

Outer Sparta wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Whether you mean to troll or not doesn’t matter. What matters is that it’s trolling because bastards is an insult and when used in an all x are y manner it’s trolling.

I’m sure there’s other ways to express your disapproval with police without resorting to “acab”, I know I have

There's definitely a distinction to make between saying ACAB implying that all cops are bad to saying that the system incentivizes bad cops while silencing the good ones. The latter makes it more clear and less trolly.

Enforcing the system is a terrible thing to do.
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:49 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.


So we can't use words with more than one meaning because we can't trust the mods to ferret it out? Oof, you must hold them in high regards.

I think you'll fallen back into bad faith again
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