[Discussion] ACAB as "all X are Y" trolling

[Hirota]

...but not all "All X are Y" is ruled as trolling

It is not automatically ruled as trolling.

As usual, context is king. "All Raspberries are Fruits" is unlikely to be trolling, for example, whilst something along the lines of "all nations with a name starting with the letter R are poopy-heads" would be much more trollish, although in context of making these as examples I would expect moderation to not action if it was reported.

[Albrenia]

Of course it's an all X are Y statement, it's in the name.

[The Reformed American Republic]

... is it really such a radical and offensive notion to say that all cops are bastards?

In other words, you should be allowed to troll because you're on the left and your trolling advances a far-left pet project rather than a far-right one? How about no!

[Arcturus Novus]

... is it really such a radical and offensive notion to say that all cops are bastards?

In other words, you should be allowed to troll because you're on the left and your trolling advances a far-left pet project rather than a far-right one? How about no!

Yes, that’s entirely what I mean, thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

[Kathol Rift]

Due to the fact that the statement is not only factually incorrect, it is directly insulting any officers, former officers, and families of police that may be on the site, and it is “All X are Y” by definition, I fail to see the problem with it being ruled as such.

[Pajonia]

If things are taking things off the site because its insulting why is so much racism and homophobia allowed on NationStates forums and RMB's? People literally have slave trading RP's and talk about wiping out ethnic minorities. Don't you think that's insulting?

The problem is that things aren't being ruled equally. There is constant bigotry that gets tolerated on this site, but saying ACAB is a big no-no because its insulting to police officers. It is an obvious bias.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Due to the fact that the statement is not only factually incorrect, it is directly insulting any officers, former officers, and families of police that may be on the site, and it is “All X are Y” by definition, I fail to see the problem with it being ruled as such.

Exactly. It's a troll phase that makes an absolute statement. If "ACAB" is allowed than why can't I say "all leftists are scum" or something like that? I see no reason why "ACAB" is different than other troll phases.

[Ethel mermania]

In other words, you should be allowed to troll because you're on the left and your trolling advances a far-left pet project rather than a far-right one? How about no!

Yes, that’s entirely what I mean, thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Whats the difference between all cops are bastards and all leftists are morons? Should only one be allowed?

[Aeritai]

If things are taking things off the site because its insulting why is so much racism and homophobia allowed on NationStates forums and RMB's? People literally have slave trading RP's and talk about wiping out ethnic minorities. Don't you think that's insulting?

The problem is that things aren't being ruled equally. There is constant bigotry that gets tolerated on this site, but saying ACAB is a big no-no because its insulting to police officers. It is an obvious bias.

If there's mod bias then just file a GHR... Also since you said that there's racism and homophobia in the forums and RMB why don't you just report it?

[Tadreodal]

If things are taking things off the site because its insulting why is so much racism and homophobia allowed on NationStates forums and RMB's? People literally have slave trading RP's and talk about wiping out ethnic minorities. Don't you think that's insulting?

The problem is that things aren't being ruled equally. There is constant bigotry that gets tolerated on this site, but saying ACAB is a big no-no because its insulting to police officers. It is an obvious bias.

If there's mod bias then just file a GHR... Also since you said that there's racism and homophobia in the forums and RMB why don't you just report it?

because then they'd have to actually find a source

[Aclion]

All cops are bastards is textbook all x are y trolling, and should be enforced no differently

[Arcturus Novus]

Yes, that’s entirely what I mean, thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Whats the difference between all cops are bastards and all leftists are morons? Should only one be allowed?

No, both should be allowed. One is a career, one is a political belief. Neither of those are protected categories in any sense.

[Ethel mermania]

Whats the difference between all cops are bastards and all leftists are morons? Should only one be allowed?

No, both should be allowed. One is a career, one is a political belief. Neither of those are protected categories in any sense.

I disagree with you, but to give credit where it is due you are being fair in your application.

I think they both are groundless and are needless incitement to the other side and constitute trolling, as they add nothing construtive to a debate on either topic.

[The New California Republic]

Whats the difference between all cops are bastards and all leftists are morons? Should only one be allowed?

No, both should be allowed. One is a career, one is a political belief. Neither of those are protected categories in any sense.

The status quo is that both are trolling. If you are putting forward the argument that neither should be, then you need some very convincing and cogent reasons in order to convince anyone. Thus far you haven't provided that.

[The Reformed American Republic]

No, both should be allowed. One is a career, one is a political belief. Neither of those are protected categories in any sense.

I disagree with you, but to give credit where it is due you are being fair in your application.

I think they both are groundless and are needless incitement to the other side and constitute trolling, as they add nothing construtive to a debate on either topic.

Indeed. This is not a free for all and calling large numbers of players "scum," "bastards," etc should not be allowed. Credit to Arcturus Novus for being consistent though. There is nothing constructive that can come out of "all leftists are morons" or "all cops are bastards" other than inflame a debate and make it volatile and prone to outbursts of flaming and other mayhem. It's the type of posts made by people who want to inflame a debate as well while they sit back and laugh.

[Luziyca]

ACAB or something along those lines is, in my opinion, trolling, given this is a classic example of "all X are Y." In this case, the X are cops, and the Y are bastards, which implies that cops are bastards, which, well, due to the connotations of bastardry, even in modern day English, means that it would be reasonable to interpret it as trolling, based on that rule.

And we must not forget that it is really close to American election day, and IIRC, the mods are enforcing rules even harder than normal, given the... volatility in this election. So I feel part of this discussion may also stem from that fact as well, given that the discourse in this election is basically like a swimming pool filled with gasoline and surrounded by a shit-ton of dynamite, fireworks, and nuclear bombs.

[Outer Sparta]

You can obviously make your pitch that police need to be held accountable without using ACAB.

[Kernen]

You can obviously make your pitch that police need to be held accountable without using ACAB.

Based on how this is enforced, I am not sure. Right now, it is not clear if one can criticize police officers as a class of government agent rather than as discrete persons.

For example, I have argued in the past that police (as a class) are the biggest threat to individual liberties. It is not clear now how absolute that statement can be without being considered trolling.

If I argue that police can't be trusted, that's a universal statement that blankets all police, on site or off. But the same could be said about, to pick something absurd, people claiming to be Nigerian Princes. If I argued the latter, I'm unlikely to receive a warning. That isn't so with the former. It would help to have a either a bright line rule or a less aggressive policing of such claims.

[Ethel mermania]

You can obviously make your pitch that police need to be held accountable without using ACAB.

Based on how this is enforced, I am not sure. Right now, it is not clear if one can criticize police officers as a class of government agent rather than as discrete persons.

For example, I have argued in the past that police (as a class) are the biggest threat to individual liberties. It is not clear now how absolute that statement can be without being considered trolling.

If I argue that police can't be trusted, that's a universal statement that blankets all police, on site or off. But the same could be said about, to pick something absurd, people claiming to be Nigerian Princes. If I argued the latter, I'm unlikely to receive a warning. That isn't so with the former. It would help to have a either a bright line rule or a less aggressive policing of such claims.

Your argument is based on the function of PD in American society. I would make a similar arguement about politicians as being the greatest threat to liberty.
You can say the police are overly militarized, or in general target minorities, without disparaging every cop on every police force.
All cops are bastards is simply name calling without any backing.

[Kernen]

Based on how this is enforced, I am not sure. Right now, it is not clear if one can criticize police officers as a class of government agent rather than as discrete persons.

For example, I have argued in the past that police (as a class) are the biggest threat to individual liberties. It is not clear now how absolute that statement can be without being considered trolling.

If I argue that police can't be trusted, that's a universal statement that blankets all police, on site or off. But the same could be said about, to pick something absurd, people claiming to be Nigerian Princes. If I argued the latter, I'm unlikely to receive a warning. That isn't so with the former. It would help to have a either a bright line rule or a less aggressive policing of such claims.

Your argument is based on the function of PD in American society. I would make a similar arguement about politicians as being the greatest threat to liberty.
You can say the police are overly militarized, or in general target minorities, without disparaging every cop on every police force.
All cops are bastards is simply name calling without any backing.

Thats fair. But I'd still get hit if I used ACAB specifically at American cops. Its still blanket. And I agree that ACAB is namecalling and nothing more. But its enforcement seems to expand beyond just namecalling into legit criticism of police as a class.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Based on how this is enforced, I am not sure. Right now, it is not clear if one can criticize police officers as a class of government agent rather than as discrete persons.

For example, I have argued in the past that police (as a class) are the biggest threat to individual liberties. It is not clear now how absolute that statement can be without being considered trolling.

If I argue that police can't be trusted, that's a universal statement that blankets all police, on site or off. But the same could be said about, to pick something absurd, people claiming to be Nigerian Princes. If I argued the latter, I'm unlikely to receive a warning. That isn't so with the former. It would help to have a either a bright line rule or a less aggressive policing of such claims.

Your argument is based on the function of PD in American society. I would make a similar arguement about politicians as being the greatest threat to liberty.
You can say the police are overly militarized, or in general target minorities, without disparaging every cop on every police force.
All cops are bastards is simply name calling without any backing.

Balance. You can criticize and demand change in the police forces US wide while also recognizing there are cops who do good. Fair is fair.

[Ethel mermania]

Your argument is based on the function of PD in American society. I would make a similar arguement about politicians as being the greatest threat to liberty.
You can say the police are overly militarized, or in general target minorities, without disparaging every cop on every police force.
All cops are bastards is simply name calling without any backing.

Thats fair. But I'd still get hit if I used ACAB specifically at American cops. Its still blanket. And I agree that ACAB is namecalling and nothing more. But its enforcement seems to expand beyond just namecalling into legit criticism of police as a class.

edit:

I dont agree, I think the warnings and bans were narrowly used here. Its just thst a bunch of folks did it, and tried to justify it in very short order.
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How is ACAB not just name calling even when targeted at Americans? Even if you attack something all cops go through or do american style police training, for example, which every cop goes through, its still not name calling all cops as each individuals, and would be well within the rules. (as an aside, I have never been arrested, but the worst I was ever treated by PD was in paris).

[Thermodolia]

Good for you

That doesn't change the situation at hand being that ACAB is an "all X are Y" attack by definition

I simply think it's a double-standard as to what's acceptable on the forums and what isn't. As I've said above, we have self-identified fascists and Nazis on the forums here and nobody in moderation bats an eye. But the phrase ACAB is suddenly unacceptable. It hasn't even been uniformly enforced; my region has had the acronym in its RMB since March and no one has batted an eye til a day or two ago.

Being a Nazi isnt a rule breaking offense while saying ACAB which is an All X are Y is

[Thermodolia]

That's entirely contingent on how you define "left-wing". Do I think there's a lot of liberals and progressives? Yeah, probably. But do I think there's an especially high amount of communists and anarchists? Outside of a relatively small and loud contingent on the forums, no.

The "loud" bit is probably what gets us into trouble.

Lets do some math
ACAB = All Cops Are Bastards
All X Are Y = AXAY
All = All, or a statement of the absolute; clearly applies in both cases
Are = Are, or a state of being
Therefore,
ACAB = AXAY = Trolling. Follow the rules

That doesn't make the rule right to begin with.

I’m pretty sure you’d pitch a major fit if someone said “all leftists are braindead morons”

[Shofercia]

So as per this recent ruling: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=493843

Would saying "All the pedophiles are Biden supporters" be actionable?

The ruling was that saying all the white supremacists and racists support Trump isn't actionable. So I'm providing the flip side of the statement.

As for the "All X are Y" rule - yeah, that should stay. Less trolling is a good thing.