[DISCUSSION] Are naughty words now against the rules?

[Greater Miami Shores]

As I pointed out on a previous post, the Moderators cant undo their rullings they have done already. They are too much, and if they forgive the recent rullings against certain persons, they have to forgive their ruling against all persons online, it is too much to undo.

All they can do is clearly state the rules, and make their future rullings.

NHA: I saw your post on the locked thread, where you defend the Trump supporters from baiting, flaming, trolling, and foul language against President Trump, I have been meaning to have the chance to thank you for it.

So I thank you for it, on behalf of myself and all Trump supporters.

Thank You - GMS.

You posted it on the locked thread, when you were trying to defend yourself and you used it as an example.

You don't know what you are talking about, and you are not qualified to make rulings.

Re read my post in full context without taking it out of context. I never said I make the rullings of the Moderators. the Moderators make any rullings they wish.

In the past when I think I have made a good case against certain persons, or persons who have reported me, they have disagreed with me, at times I asked for a second opinion and they disagreed with me again. I accepted it and moved on both respective times.

And I sort of thank them anyway, I mean I am polite back about it, one time I was a little on polite.

At times when I think I have made a good case against certain persons, and or certain persons reported on my behalf when I have been unfairly accused, the Moderators have agreed with me, and I thank them for it all the times.

I give The New California Republic some credit on his comment on the F word.

[The Horror Channel]

So, can we still type the word "fuck" or not?

That isn't really what the thread is about. Have a read through the thread to see what it is about.

I have read the thread, i'm just doing what I normally do, not take anything seriously

[Greater Miami Shores]

As I pointed out on a previous post, the Moderators cant undo their rullings they have done already. They are too much, and if they forgive the recent rullings against certain persons, they have to forgive their ruling against all persons online, it is too much to undo.

No, sorry, but that is self-evidently total nonsense.

Yes I know the Moderators can change their minds and change a ruling, I have seen them do so on the Mod Forums.

What I am saying is they cant undo the rullings against the current persons and all persons online, because it would be too much work for them.

I am saying if they undo the rullings against the current persons, they need to undo the rullings against all persons on line.

For them to be fair and balanced to all persons.

I think I make good Points.

Perhaps you did not understand my post in this context, which I think I made it very clear in other and similar words.

My posts are not self-evidently total nonsense.

Thank you for your posts and comments.

GMS.

[The New California Republic]

No, sorry, but that is self-evidently total nonsense.

Yes I know the Moderators can change their minds and change a ruling, I have seen them do so on the Mod Forums.

What I am saying is they cant undo the rullings against the current persons and all persons online, because it would be too much work for them.

I am saying if they undo the rullings against the current persons, they need to undo the rullings against all persons on line.

Yet again that is still nonsense, as it does not follow at all. To clarify: there have only been three or four people dinged under the new interpretation, all in the past few weeks, so I'm sure the Mods are quite capable of reversing a mere four rulings should it be necessary to.

[Fahran]

Well, you have to make sure nobodies "feefees" get hurt when saying certain politicians are what they are.

Um... then we should totally unban all those people who got banned for trolling before.

It's not so much about giving people a safe space where their feelings will never get hurt or their opinions will never be challenged as it is about no one having a blank check to post with the sole or principal intention of upsetting or trolling people and igniting flame wars. Not all posts are created equal, and, frankly, not all posts should be welcomed or treated equally. Just as NS has no obligation to treat all opinions as equally valid.

I think the issue here is that, while a lot of the posts that got mod-smacked in the last couple weeks have looked like trolling, we, as a community, have become acclimated to using incendiary language in these conversations, both to express our deep hatred for political figures we dislike and to express anger or emphasize our points in arguments. Part of the problem is that we're used to approaching moderation and the rules on trolling in particular in a very narrow, letter of the law way instead of looking at the forest. To the extent that we have no objections to a mod-smack for a mild instance of "all X are Y" trolling but it strikes us as severe when strings of posts with acerbic and consistent profanity and little else in the way of argumentation get mod-smacked. Additionally, the mod team haven't really enforced this standard routinely - which generates accusations of foul play.

I'm skeptical we'll see a blanket ban on profanity or even on insulting public figures within reasonable limits, but I don't think we're losing much as a community if you can't unleash strings of harsh profanity aimed at public figures or limited groups of people. Because, again, we can't really debate whether or not Margaret Thatcher is a "bitch" or whether or not Recep Erdogan is a "cunt." We can express our dislike and then elaborate on why we dislike them, but the really nasty insults don't convey anything of substance.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Yes I know the Moderators can change their minds and change a ruling, I have seen them do so on the Mod Forums.

What I am saying is they cant undo the rullings against the current persons and all persons online, because it would be too much work for them.

I am saying if they undo the rullings against the current persons, they need to undo the rullings against all persons on line.

Yet again that is still nonsense, as it does not follow at all.

Here we go again, even on a discussion thread. What you are clearly saying is I am wrong based on facts and you are right based on facts. What many here do too me directly and indirectly on Trump, the Republicans and all issues, on their posts too me, I can prove it, it is on their posts.

Which they have a democratic right to do so on NS.

After I strongly disagree with you or anyone on NS I drop it and move on, at a certain point I drop it and move on.

Honestly I don't know if you were a former Mod and that would explain your knowledge. I think your nation does not have the former Mod seal.

Honestly I don't know if you have puppet nations, but every time we strongly disagree on anything and the rules, you strongly attack the contexts of my posts as wrong.

I have noticed this many times before.

Thank you for your posts and comments.

GMS.

[The New California Republic]

Yet again that is still nonsense, as it does not follow at all.

Here we go again, even on a discussion thread. What you are clearly saying is I am wrong based on facts and you are right based on facts. What many here do too me directly and indirectly on Trump, the Republicans and all issues, on their posts too me, I can prove it, it is on their posts.

No that's not the case. Please don't twist this into being something that it's not.

Honestly I don't know if you were a former Mod and that would explain your knowledge. I think your nation does not have the former Mod seal.

No.

Honestly I don't know if you have puppet nations, but every time we strongly disagree on anything and the rules, you strongly attack the contexts of my posts.

Again no. I don't use puppets for responses.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Here we go again, even on a discussion thread. What you are clearly saying is I am wrong based on facts and you are right based on facts. What many here do too me directly and indirectly on Trump, the Republicans and all issues, on their posts too me, I can prove it, it is on their posts.

No that's not the case. Please don't twist this into being something that it's not.

We are still cool to post to each other and RP with each other.

I take you words on your puppet nations, thank you.

I can use a real California nation to RP with.

As I said I have seen this many times before from you.

But you are not the only one on NS.

But all of you have a democratic right to do so towards me on NS.

As you well know and all of you well know, I don't put any fellow nation persons on ignore for any personal, insults, reasons or political reasons against me, it is on my sig

I consider this back forth dropped and settled on my part and I hope and trust on your part. I will not make any further comments on this anyway, I here by drop it.

We are still cool to post to each other and RP with each other.

I take your words on your puppet nations, thank you.

I can use a real California nation to RP with.

Thank you for your posts and comments.

GMS.

[New haven america]

There is nothing in that post that can be considered clear.

As I pointed out on a previous post, the Moderators cant undo their rullings they have done already. They are too much, and if they forgive the recent rullings against certain persons, they have to forgive their ruling against all persons online, it is too much to undo.

All they can do is clearly state the rules, and make their future rullings.

I think I make good Points.

NHA: I saw your post on the locked thread, where you defend the Trump supporters from baiting, flaming, trolling, and foul language against President Trump, I have been meaning to have the chance to thank you for it.

So I thank you for it, on behalf of myself and all Trump supporters.

Thank You - GMS.

You posted it on the locked thread, when you were trying to defend yourself and you used it as an example.

Why have you just posted a big wall of nonsense?

[Greater Miami Shores]

As I pointed out on a previous post, the Moderators cant undo their rullings they have done already. They are too much, and if they forgive the recent rullings against certain persons, they have to forgive their ruling against all persons online, it is too much to undo.

All they can do is clearly state the rules, and make their future rullings.

I think I make good Points.

NHA: I saw your post on the locked thread, where you defend the Trump supporters from baiting, flaming, trolling, and foul language against President Trump, I have been meaning to have the chance to thank you for it.

So I thank you for it, on behalf of myself and all Trump supporters.

Thank You - GMS.

You posted it on the locked thread, when you were trying to defend yourself and you used it as an example.

Why have you just posted a big wall of nonsense?

I know the Moderators can change their minds on warnings they rule on. I have seen them on the forums.

If you are referring to my comments above on this issue of rules they are not nonsense, they make logical sense and are logical. I also explained it better on another post I posted when I was strongly criticized and challenged on it. I also stated it is not fair and balanced to forgive the recent few and not forgive the others who still post on NS. My posts on this issue is not nonsense.

Because many of you who strongly support the other option, and strongly disagree with me, here we go again.

If you are referring to the thank you I posted to you. I am fairly sure I saw you post it is not fair to Trump supporters or something similar to it.

Again my posts on the issue of this thread are not a big wall of nonsense, decided by those who strongly disagree with me on this issue. Here we go again, lol.

If so decided by those who strongly disagree with me, I really don't care, I really don't give a heck.

Since I obey the current rules and support the current rules the Moderators decision either way does not affect me.

I am very proud that I don't do this, and I am not the only one on NS.

GMS.

[The Archregimancy]

This is the official statement on the issue from the moderation team:

Short version:

We are downgrading the formal warning for trolling handed out to Fartsniffage to an informal warning; while we feel were justified in handing out a warning for trolling under the stricter US election protocols first outlined in January, we accept that we didn't communicate the rationale behind that warning as well as we might have done given the confusion over the precedent that it's fine to flame people who aren't members of the site.

However, we strongly stress that this type of post in US election threads may well be considered actionable as trolling moving forward until such time as the US election comes to a conclusion. We would hope to return to normal service once the election is over.



Long Version:

There is nothing particularly unusual in the moderation team imposing stricter interpretations of the rules over specific topics, nor is this the first time that we have announced that we'll be stricter over US elections. In this particular case, the US election has become so polarised, and the rhetoric so unpleasant, that we feel we're entirely justified in clamping down on posts that could be considered trolling in discussion of that election.

Note that the longstanding precedent over insulting politicians covers flaming. No, you can't flame someone who isn't a member of the site. But the warning that caused consternation here was over trolling. In the heated context of the current US election, referring to the president's close associates as 'fucking scum, the lot of them' and then referring to the president as a 'cunt' is needlessly inflammatory. We do have Trump supporters on this site. As such, we need to make that distinction between flaming people who aren't a member of the site (I can still refer to a former colleague of mine in Egypt as a fucking narcissistic cockwomble without fear) and the use of needlessly inflammatory language in US election threads, as happened here. This works in both directions; if someone were to refer to Biden as a 'baby-murdering senile fuckhead', that would also be actionable under current circumstances. So while we acknowledge that this is a change of emphasis in interpretation, we do not think it is a change of the basic rules on trolling.

Nonetheless, we accept that we didn't make that distinction between flaming and trolling as clear as we might have done, nor did we explain the rationale behind the application to this case of the Election 2020 Rules Reminder posted in January as well as we could have done, which is why we're downgrading the warning here. But make no mistake, we reserve the right to find this type of post actionable as we get closer to the 3rd of November.

We do very much hope to return to normal service after the US election, but if the result of the election is - God forbid - seriously disputed, you can expect to see us act particularly strictly. Likewise gloating over the result of the election, the death of a candidate in the election, or (and I only raise this example because of recent events in Michigan) acts of violence against candidates.

And yes you can continue to swear. We're not saying you can't type 'fuck' anymore, only that you should be particularly careful about inflammatory language in the specific context of the US election. We do, however, reserve the right to be similarly strict over other issues in the future; but we'll try and telegraph this a little more clearly when we feel this is warranted.

We would also strongly stress that New Visayan Islands is blameless over this ruling. His own inclination was in fact only to loom, or at best hand out an informal warning; however, he sought advice from more experienced members of the team before acting, in keeping with appropriate protocol for a new member of the team, and that advice was to instead hand out a formal warning, which he duly did. So, ironically enough, we are now restoring the punishment to NVI's original inclination over the warning recommended by more experienced members of the team.


Because it's a Saturday morning, it may take me a couple of hours to take the action to formally rescind the warning on Fartsniffage's record; my wife is reminding me that priority weekend chores are waiting. Apologies for this; but it will happen today.



Finally, we wish that Greater Miami Shores would stop posting in this thread. His contributions are unhelpful, do not represent the position of the moderation team, as two separate moderators have already had to politely point out.

[The New California Republic]

Thanks very much for the clarification Arch, and the rest of the Mod team, as it was a result of a discussion after all.

[The Free Joy State]

Thank you for the clarification.

[Vistulange]

Thank you for the explanation and clarification.

[Valrifell]

Thank you for being clear and transparent.

[Fahran]

Thanks, Arch. And everyone else.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Thanks Arch at al.

[Katganistan]

For the same reason the other moderators here have posted. To give you the information that is available at this time.

Why did you bother posting this?

No, you linked us back to the rules as if the rule breaking was self-evident and that would be the end-of the case. If anything, you made it less clear what was going on. Maybe don't do that if there's an ongoing internal discussion, considering you don't speak for the whole of the team?

Maybe consider that as people were saying that this was not against the rules and there was no precedent, posting that there WAS actually an announcement was meant to clarify. We are not responsible for people continuing to insist that they do not understand.

And perhaps consider that moderators are supposed to answer moderation questions, so your suggestion that a senior game moderator should NOT attempt to clarify has been given all due consideration.

[Katganistan]

So, can we still type the word "fuck" or not?

I don't fucking see why the fuck not. As long as you don't fucking use it to say that another player is a dumb fuck or a fucking idiot, or in a way that the rules state is not allowed.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I know I can speak for me and all my fellow Republican Trump supporters. Thank you Arch, Katganistan, Farnhamia and all the Moderators for your comments and rullings against those who bait, flame, troll and use foul language against President Trump, The Republicans, Trump supporters like myself and our favorite right wing real life Politicians and VIPs.

Thank yo to all the Moderators on the Moderators Team.

GMS.

[Lamoni]

Unfortunately, Greater Miami Shores has disregarded Moderation's request not to post in the thread, and while we regret the inconvenience to other posters, we feel we have no choice but to lock the thread to stop him from further interrupting constructive discussion.