[Discussion/Announcement] NSG's "Wing" Megathreads

[La Xinga]

Where are the Drew waves?

Drew never showed off the forums in his video (likely because they're hard to access for someone new to the site) and I don't think his video was a real endorsement for the site. Most of his fans who weren't familiar with NS and watched the video... probably didn't care enough to visit the site.

Oh, so this is only about the forums?

[Joohan]

NS is a growing site.

You sure?

Is it falling in activity? I figured the opposite was true, considering the attention it got on youtube a while back with Drew Durnil and what not. Regardless, the point stands the number of staff should meet the workload, and not the other way around.

[Ghost Land]

-snip-

I remember Sibirsky and the whole "silver medal debating" thing, stinks he left the NSG community thanks to other people making what amount to basically memes out of his posts; it's happened to me on other sites and it sucks! His nation (Sibirsky) is currently active, though.

As a 2012 myself, I distinctly remember the whole Karinzistan situation, but where was he really bullied before he got DoS'd? All I can remember is him getting his panties in a twist whenever someone called him by a nickname (of which only "Kare-bear" was ever ruled actionable).

I assume he works like the great [violet.], where he doesn't actually own a nation but still has an online forum presence.

Is Max Barry violet? Is Max Barry Testlandia? If so, what happens if they break the rules? Wait, they can't happen, since the FAQ says:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

Max Barry does have access to the Testlandia, which is shared among him and the admins for the purposes of, well, testing things out and use in examples, primarily. The identity of [violet] has never officially been confirmed; while there is speculation that [violet] = Max, it has never been proven, and my belief is that she is someone who is close to Max (perhaps his wife or a close friend), but not him personally.

On topic, I'm kind of divided about the shutting down of the wing threads. On one hand, there was indeed a separate culture that developed within each of these two series of threads, and when such develops organically, of course there's going to be more banter, more inside references, and a sense of community that comes along with it. Of course practically nerfing these communities is going to tick a lot of people off; one person has already gone suicide-by-mod in this very thread. At the same time, other posters are right in that it does become a clique where "out-group" posters, especially those whose viewpoints don't align with the herd mentality within the thread, might not feel welcome to contribute; looking through my post history I don't think I posted in a single LWDT for instance. Forsher is right that the megathreads effectively have become the source of most discussion on NSG altogether, and as there is only a small group of very active posters in each megathread, total participation does seem to have declined; most of the posts in NSG do seem to be made by the same loosely associated group of maybe 50 posters who tend to have astronomical post counts, largely through posting in these megathreads. Yes, there is a lot of shitposting in megathreads, as has also been noted; shitposts are indeed just a part of how forums and their users operate, but at the same time the extent of such means that collectively, the LWDT, RWDT, and MAGAthread really just in a way remind me of TET circa its 2013 heyday when it was flying heavy and fast, effectively 500 pages of shitposts racked up within each week or even shorter, people just being able to rack up their post counts very quickly due to participation in that thread. (No, I'm not slamming TET; I do feel we need a lighthearted chat sort of thread, and bringing one back in F7 might be a good idea too, but that's a different topic. I miss these old days of greater TET activity; now a thread can last three months and it's just boring.)

When I think of my idealised vision of NSG, it involves an active and vibrant community, coming together and freely discussing virtually any out-of-character, pertaining-to-real-life topic. That's why it's called General, not "Political Debate". On the front page of NSG, there might be threads about the UK election, preferred pizza toppings, preferred indoor temperatures, Arab Muslim immigration, height disparity in romantic relationships, the mandatory LGBT and abortion threads of the week, the current NFL season, TET of course, and up to 16 other topics of a political and non-political nature. A board called "General" is supposed to have a wide smattering of discussion topics like this, and it's a shame that political discussion has pretty much monopolized what goes on on NSG. I used to post on a different forum whose main discussion topic was United States cities and relocation, and it had dozens of general forums pertaining to a whole bunch of different topics: fashion, food and drink, relationships, psychology, weather/climate, etc. Maybe we should separate the politics/current events discussion and create a new subforum for truly general topics of discussion?

[Esternial]

I think his main grievance is inconsistency in mod rulings, which is a topic as old as the forum I think.

I don't really believe there's a fix that would satisfy anyone here, but maybe there could be ideas out there none of us has thought of before. It's unfortunate these kind of discussions are inflated with complaints of people that feel personally wronged.

Wouldn't you like a fancy RoboMod AI though? ;)

I don't know. There are nuances, which machines would find difficult to delineate.

Well, I'd use it more as a first line of curation. Identifying problematic posts and submitting them for Mod review without actually relying on players to report them. I'd never suggest depending on AI for end-to-end moderation. Manual curation is always needed.

Stop trying to find a new gig here as machine learning consultant :p

Why I'd never, how dare you.

Don't ruin this for me D:

[Joohan]

NS is a growing site. If the problem was that they don't have enough staff to monitor everything, then the solution isn't to reduce the workload by cutting player threads, rather, it should be to increase the staff.

The problem is a large volume of chat threads do not contribute anything for anyone and often lead to... well, you know. Be it here or back in 2016 when they halted chat threads in F7.

LWDT and RWDT were hugely popular though.

[The Marlborough]

-snip-

I remember Sibirsky and the whole "silver medal debating" thing, stinks he left the NSG community thanks to other people making what amount to basically memes out of his posts; it's happened to me on other sites and it sucks! His nation (Sibirsky) is currently active, though.

As a 2012 myself, I distinctly remember the whole Karinzistan situation, but where was he really bullied before he got DoS'd? All I can remember is him getting his panties in a twist whenever someone called him by a nickname (of which only "Kare-bear" was ever ruled actionable).

Is Max Barry violet? Is Max Barry Testlandia? If so, what happens if they break the rules? Wait, they can't happen, since the FAQ says:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

Max Barry does have access to the Testlandia, which is shared among him and the admins for the purposes of, well, testing things out and use in examples, primarily. The identity of [violet] has never officially been confirmed; while there is speculation that [violet] = Max, it has never been proven, and my belief is that she is someone who is close to Max (perhaps his wife or a close friend), but not him personally.

On topic, I'm kind of divided about the shutting down of the wing threads. On one hand, there was indeed a separate culture that developed within each of these two series of threads, and when such develops organically, of course there's going to be more banter, more inside references, and a sense of community that comes along with it. At the same time, other posters are right in that it does become a clique where "out-group" posters, especially those whose viewpoints don't align with the herd mentality within the thread, might not feel welcome to contribute; looking through my post history I don't think I posted in a single LWDT for instance. Forsher is right that the megathreads effectively have become the source of most discussion on NSG altogether, and as there is only a small group of very active posters in each megathread, total participation does seem to have declined; most of the posts in NSG do seem to be made by the same loosely associated group of maybe 50 posters who tend to have astronomical post counts, largely through posting in these megathreads. Yes, there is a lot of shitposting in megathreads, as has also been noted; shitposts are indeed just a part of how forums and their users operate, but at the same time the extent of such means that collectively, the LWDT, RWDT, and MAGAthread really just in a way remind me of TET circa its 2013 heyday when it was flying heavy and fast, effectively 500 pages of shitposts racked up within each week or even shorter, people just being able to rack up their post counts very quickly due to participation in that thread. (No, I'm not slamming TET; I do feel we need a lighthearted chat sort of thread, and bringing one back in F7 might be a good idea too, but that's a different topic. I miss these old days of greater TET activity; now a thread can last three months and it's just boring.)

When I think of my idealised vision of NSG, it involves an active and vibrant community, coming together and freely discussing virtually any out-of-character, pertaining-to-real-life topic. That's why it's called General, not "Political Debate". On the front page of NSG, there might be threads about the UK election, preferred pizza toppings, preferred indoor temperatures, Arab Muslim immigration, height disparity in romantic relationships, the mandatory LGBT and abortion threads of the week, the current NFL season, TET of course, and up to 16 other topics of a political and non-political nature. A board called "General" is supposed to have a wide smattering of discussion topics like this, and it's a shame that political discussion has pretty much monopolized what goes on on NSG. I used to post on a different forum whose main discussion topic was United States cities and relocation, and it had dozens of general forums pertaining to a whole bunch of different topics: fashion, food and drink, relationships, psychology, weather/climate, etc. Maybe we should separate the politics/current events discussion and create a new subforum for truly general topics of discussion?

I will say that I do miss the more general nature of some of the threads that we used to have. That said, I think once 2015-2016 hit and all that caused...hyper-politicization was going to happen. Which is of course unfortunate and I myself have not helped in that regard at times. I would like to see more general and non-politics related threads but at the same time if we don't have megathreads for some political issues, then more general ones could easily get swamped by a torrent of political ones that could have fit nicely within one of the megathreads.

[Western Pacific Territories]

Drew never showed off the forums in his video (likely because they're hard to access for someone new to the site) and I don't think his video was a real endorsement for the site. Most of his fans who weren't familiar with NS and watched the video... probably didn't care enough to visit the site.

Oh, so this is only about the forums?

Well actually I just remembered that NS forums and the base website share the same URL. I guess his fans didn't stick around

Is it falling in activity? I figured the opposite was true, considering the attention it got on youtube a while back with Drew Durnil and what not.

While I'm sure one of the rises in the chart is Drew's followers, most people tend not to stick around to these sort of sites IMO.

[Diarcesia]

The problem is a large volume of chat threads do not contribute anything for anyone and often lead to... well, you know. Be it here or back in 2016 when they halted chat threads in F7.

LWDT and RWDT were hugely popular though.

And so is chatting in F7. There was a ruckus when those were shut down (and right when this nation was created).

[Valrifell]

The problem is a large volume of chat threads do not contribute anything for anyone and often lead to... well, you know. Be it here or back in 2016 when they halted chat threads in F7.

LWDT and RWDT were hugely popular though.

My statement was qualified with "a huge volume". I also wouldn't say that a series of two threads frequented by maybe a dozen-and-a-half posters between them as "hugely popular", particularly in comparison to shutting down chat threads in F7.

The popularity doesn't negate the distaste for chat threads that the site has garnered and the connotation that their history has.

[Aeritai]

So by this logic, is Christian Discussion going to be locked? "Christian" is a very broad term, it can cover anything from the Roman Catholic Church, to the bajillion different types of protestantism, to Mormonism and Calvinism.

I hope the CDT doesn't get locked from what I seen we stay on topic and its usually not super active.

[The New California Republic]

So by this logic, is Christian Discussion going to be locked? "Christian" is a very broad term, it can cover anything from the Roman Catholic Church, to the bajillion different types of protestantism, to Mormonism and Calvinism.

It could be argued that it too fails the standard that the Mods have set:

What qualifies for a megathread?

• A topic which has at its focus a specific, singular subject, such as a current news event (IE: election thread, anti-police protests), a frequent recurring debate (IE: abortion, gun control), or a political figure (IE: the US president.)
• Discussion on that specific, singular subject as the thread's primary focus, not simple socializing motivated by underlying interest in the subject. Conversational drift is okay, but it must remain on that specific, singular primary focus.

It is neither a current news event, nor is it a frequent recurring debate, and nor is it a political figure.

And you are right, how generic is too generic in order to fail the above metric? Christianity, it can be argued, is about as broad as "Left Wing".

[Fartsniffage]

So by this logic, is Christian Discussion going to be locked? "Christian" is a very broad term, it can cover anything from the Roman Catholic Church, to the bajillion different types of protestantism, to Mormonism and Calvinism.

I hope the CDT doesn't get locked from what I seen we stay on topic and its usually not super active.

Just make sure people in the CDT keep reporting people for rule breaking and it will be golden. Or so I take things from the moderation involvement in this thread.

[Diarcesia]

I hope the CDT doesn't get locked from what I seen we stay on topic and its usually not super active.

Just make sure people in the CDT keep reporting people for rule breaking and it will be golden. Or so I take things from the moderation involvement in this thread.

Self-moderating isn't a novel concept here.

[Joohan]

I hope the CDT doesn't get locked from what I seen we stay on topic and its usually not super active.

Just make sure people in the CDT keep reporting people for rule breaking and it will be golden. Or so I take things from the moderation involvement in this thread.

People got reported in RWDT all the time too...

[Fartsniffage]

Just make sure people in the CDT keep reporting people for rule breaking and it will be golden. Or so I take things from the moderation involvement in this thread.

People got reported in RWDT all the time too...

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

[Foxfound]

bringing one back in F7 might be a good idea too, but that's a different topic

I haven't been active in it, and it hasn't really been active in general lately, but last I checked there was still the Ram's Head Saloon in F7, unless you were thinking about an OOC chat/hangout thread.

[Dylar]

People got reported in RWDT all the time too...

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

I mean it did happen...a lot. Which is why the mods ended up doing trawls on the thread every couple of weeks.

[Washington Resistance Army]

People got reported in RWDT all the time too...

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

Fwiw people would be more open to working with moderation if things didn't seem so stacked against them. Plenty of people in RWDT fully believed moderation was out for them and trying to use any excuse to remove them from the site. That's not unique to RWDT users either, I've seen other communities from all sides of General saying the same things off site. When virtually your entire userbase thinks the mods are biased and out for them it's never going to be a peaceful setting. As I've been saying throughout a lot of this thread, if moderation wants things to change they need to put in a lot of effort themselves.

[Alcala-Cordel]

-snip-

I remember Sibirsky and the whole "silver medal debating" thing, stinks he left the NSG community thanks to other people making what amount to basically memes out of his posts; it's happened to me on other sites and it sucks! His nation (Sibirsky) is currently active, though.

As a 2012 myself, I distinctly remember the whole Karinzistan situation, but where was he really bullied before he got DoS'd? All I can remember is him getting his panties in a twist whenever someone called him by a nickname (of which only "Kare-bear" was ever ruled actionable).

Wait what happened? Sorry to intrude, but I'd appreciate it if someone would please explain it to a newer member

[Valrifell]

People got reported in RWDT all the time too...

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

The problem, to my understanding, wasn't a lack of vigilant reporting (I mean, it's NSG, people let things slide), but that there was a culture of actively discouraging users to self-moderate the thread or report rule-breaking to the moderation subforum.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

The problem, to my understanding, wasn't a lack of vigilant reporting (I mean, it's NSG, people let things slide), but that there was a culture of actively discouraging users to self-moderate the thread or report rule-breaking to the moderation subforum.

Quite the opposite there were ever increasing attempts to self-moderate content, the thread as a whole just wished to avoid involving moderation for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

[Auze]

Well perhaps if it had happened more then the thread wouldn't have been locked. That's what the mods have been saying. If I'm wrong then they can correct my wrong impression of what happened.

Fwiw people would be more open to working with moderation if things didn't seem so stacked against them. Plenty of people in RWDT fully believed moderation was out for them and trying to use any excuse to remove them from the site. That's not unique to RWDT users either, I've seen other communities from all sides of General saying the same things off site. When virtually your entire userbase thinks the mods are biased and out for them it's never going to be a peaceful setting. As I've been saying throughout a lot of this thread, if moderation wants things to change they need to put in a lot of effort themselves.

And it appears that the dissolution of the RWDT was about as effective at putting to mindset to rest as pouring gasoline onto a fire.

[Diopolis]

There are multiple ideas that would at least address the problem, they're just not getting floated in favor of people bitching.
For example, making the rules far more clear and detailed- part of the problem is pretty clearly that different mods are ruling differently on borderline cases.

Again, as I stated before, you can make a thread and suggest enhancements to the OSRS if you find some parts too vague. If you argue your case well, changes can be made.

I have done so myself in the past.

You'll notice I was agreeing with you(that people are more interested in complaining about vague generalities than making suggestions), and posted a handful of suggestions a couple of pages back(on top of a much larger number of suggestions by a different poster).

[The Marlborough]

The problem, to my understanding, wasn't a lack of vigilant reporting (I mean, it's NSG, people let things slide), but that there was a culture of actively discouraging users to self-moderate the thread or report rule-breaking to the moderation subforum.

Quite the opposite there were ever increasing attempts to self-moderate content, the thread as a whole just wished to avoid involving moderation for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

This. And I was among the more vocal and vehement anti-mod posters in the thread and even I had enough after last time. I recognized that no matter what, it would happen so the best thing to do was just stay off everyone's radar and just let the chips fall. People were onboard with bringing an end to some of the rowdier aspects of it and there was just going to be more internal self-moderation.

[Valrifell]

The problem, to my understanding, wasn't a lack of vigilant reporting (I mean, it's NSG, people let things slide), but that there was a culture of actively discouraging users to self-moderate the thread or report rule-breaking to the moderation subforum.

Quite the opposite there were ever increasing attempts to self-moderate content, the thread as a whole just wished to avoid involving moderation for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

If there were genuine attempts I didn't see them, but I wouldn't consider myself a regular.