[Discussion] New Coronavirus rule

[USS Monitor]

Therefore, I need to ask again: What is the difference between the "Tank Man" flag, and the "CCP Virus" flag? This is a genuine, honest, and serious question, posed to the moderation team, so that we - as a community who by its nature needs to abide by their rules - know precisely what to expect.

Maybe the fact that Tiananmen Sq was a real thing and not a xenophobic conspiracy theory?

And no, none of this shit is "honest serious" questions. It's pure rules-lawyering. The news post already says that COVID-related content is being held to a different standard than other content. "Tank man" is not COVID-related. There isn't a lack of clarity here, just some stubborn Sinophobes that don't want to accept that the new COVID policy applies to them, so you keep asking for "clarification" over and over hoping for a different answer.

[Vistulange]

Therefore, I need to ask again: What is the difference between the "Tank Man" flag, and the "CCP Virus" flag? This is a genuine, honest, and serious question, posed to the moderation team, so that we - as a community who by its nature needs to abide by their rules - know precisely what to expect.

Maybe the fact that Tiananmen Sq was a real thing and not a xenophobic conspiracy theory?

And no, none of this shit is "honest serious" questions. It's pure rules-lawyering. The news post already says that COVID-related content is being held to a different standard than other content. "Tank man" is not COVID-related. There isn't a lack of clarity here, just some stubborn Sinophobes that don't want to accept that the new COVID policy applies to them, so you keep asking for "clarification" over and over hoping for a different answer.

What on Earth, Monitor?

I'm not a Sinophobe, nor am I trying to rules-lawyer for anybody. I don't get how you can paint me with a brush like that, I simply don't. I don't recall anywhere stating that the new rule doesn't apply to anybody, myself included. I literally wanted clarification, and you actually gave it to me: "COVID-related content is being held to a different standard than other content".

I had partially missed that bit of the news post. That was literally all I was asking for. I could have done without the implication that I was a Sinophobe and that I was implying I thought rules did not apply to me, but thanks.

[Outer Sparta]

Why are we so fixated on flags (which are gameside) all of a sudden? Can't you all just make your points on the actual forums instead of bickering whether or not a certain flag should be used?

[Audioslavia]

To respond to the posts quoted above, why is Grenartia's Tank Man flag allowed to stand?

Therefore, I need to ask again: What is the difference between the "Tank Man" flag, and the "CCP Virus" flag? This is a genuine, honest, and serious question, posed to the moderation team, so that we - as a community who by its nature needs to abide by their rules - know precisely what to expect.

Tank
man
is
a
symbol.

Bullshit COVID-19 conspiracy theories are not symbols.

Finally, why do I get the feeling some of the mods have confused me with several other posters on this thread and the other one I started? We're not the same person.

Nobody thinks you're the same person.

Why are we so fixated on flags (which are gameside) all of a sudden? Can't you all just make your points on the actual forums instead of bickering whether or not a certain flag should be used?

This is the site's policy exactly. When everyone's done making their 'but whatabout' points it'll remain site policy.

[Lockdownn]

Regardless of whether or not the offense is "labelled correctly", the Flag Policy in the OSRS (which I'm sure you've read, right?) clearly states that flags are not to be used for political points as they cannot be debated.

Obviously no authority here, but it doesn't take much to comprehend the rules of a site you chose to sign up for.
I don't have a leg in this race other than I would prefer that we could use that flag, but rules are rules.

So pride flags, religious symbols, maga flags, confederate flags don't make political points?

I forget, which specific political points do they make again? Are they not symbols for a large range of ideas and opinions and not a singular point of discussion?

I'm sure you could pick any flag on here and cherry pick arguments.

Religious symbols are symbols. The confederate flag is a symbol. 'MAGA' is a symbol. Symbols belong on flags. Even the swastika, though we don't allow those because *gestures vaguely towards recent history*

'X is responsible for COVID-19 because Y' is a political point. And usually a shitfuck one.

Just to clear that up.

Emphasis mine.

I would like to ask if the flag policy has changed to reflect this policy otherwise this interpretation appears misleading.

[Audioslavia]

Either you've misunderstood the point of my post or I'm missing the point of yours. We generally don't allow swastikas to be on flags. I was using it as an exception to demonstrate a separate point.

[New Bremerton]

Therefore, I need to ask again: What is the difference between the "Tank Man" flag, and the "CCP Virus" flag? This is a genuine, honest, and serious question, posed to the moderation team, so that we - as a community who by its nature needs to abide by their rules - know precisely what to expect.

Maybe the fact that Tiananmen Sq was a real thing and not a xenophobic conspiracy theory?

And no, none of this shit is "honest serious" questions. It's pure rules-lawyering. The news post already says that COVID-related content is being held to a different standard than other content. "Tank man" is not COVID-related. There isn't a lack of clarity here, just some stubborn Sinophobes that don't want to accept that the new COVID policy applies to them, so you keep asking for "clarification" over and over hoping for a different answer.

I've bolded the parts I'm responding to for emphasis. I'm going to have to draw a line here. I don't take kindly to being smeared as a "stubborn Sinophobe" spreading "xenophobic conspiracy theories".

The term CCP virus is meant purely as a jab at the Chinese regime's gross mishandling of the corona outbreak and serves as a politically correct alternative to "Chinese virus" and "Wuhan virus", the latter two of which are more likely to elicit wrongheaded, politically correct, CCP-approved accusations of racism. Nowhere in that image is a nefarious conspiracy implied. Literally nowhere. I have explained many times already that this is the point I was trying to make when I (apparently wrongly) uploaded that flag. Whether Reppy was right to remove it or not is totally beside the point. I reluctantly accept my judgment even though I find its interpretation downright absurd, and I would've been more than happy to let it slide if not for the personal attacks being leveled against me. But according to you, not only am I trolling bogus conspiracy theories about the Chinese government, but I'm also being racist against myself. I am guilty of none of these things. That you seem to think otherwise doesn't make it true. I would have you know I'm a Malaysian Chinese born and bred in Hong Kong.

I've already said previously that I won't be uploading any more CCP virus flags or any flags related to corona or politics in general to avoid further misunderstandings or arbitrary rules violations, so you can't accuse me of "rules-lawyering". I'm not asking for CCP virus flags to be deemed acceptable to upload for the purposes of "trolling" this site, notwithstanding my concerns about inconsistency in enforcement vs The Tank Man flag. I fully accept the flag takedown. I'm not lodging any further appeals. You won't be seeing it again. I intend to obey all site rules including the corona rule, despite my serious reservations regarding the latter especially in light of the recent ruling against me. Your hostility and personal attacks toward Vis, and by implication, myself, are totally unwarranted and uncalled for.

Vistulange is absolutely right to demand further scrutiny and clarification, as am I, and nobody's (or at least I'm not) challenging site policy, merely whether this particular corona policy is being enforced fairly. I signed up and agreed to all of the other site rules from the outset, but this particular rule was enacted long after most of us had already signed on, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm still trying to adjust to this radically new and suddenly hostile environment. And if the mods are unable to give a clear and definitive answer beyond "we don't rule on hypotheticals", which is likely to be the case, then I am prepared to weather the storm for as long as necessary. Needless to say, I'm not too happy about the way this rule is being enforced.

Tank
man
is
a
symbol.

Bullshit COVID-19 conspiracy theories are not symbols.

See my response to Monitor above.

Why are we so fixated on flags (which are gameside) all of a sudden? Can't you all just make your points on the actual forums instead of bickering whether or not a certain flag should be used?

We wouldn't be arguing about flags if some of the people on this thread would stop insinuating that I am in fact an American alt-right conspiracy theorist with a typically Welsh surname that rhymes with thrones.

[Outer Sparta]

Why are we so fixated on flags (which are gameside) all of a sudden? Can't you all just make your points on the actual forums instead of bickering whether or not a certain flag should be used?

We wouldn't be arguing about flags if some of the people on this thread would stop insinuating that I am in fact an American alt-right conspiracy theorist with a typically Welsh surname that rhymes with thrones.

Weren't you the one that brought up flag concerns on a different thread in moderation?

[New Bremerton]

We wouldn't be arguing about flags if some of the people on this thread would stop insinuating that I am in fact an American alt-right conspiracy theorist with a typically Welsh surname that rhymes with thrones.

Weren't you the one that brought up flag concerns on a different thread in moderation?

Yes. On a different thread inquiring about the flag ruling that was made against me, which has since been locked.

[Lockdownn]

Either you've misunderstood the point of my post or I'm missing the point of yours. We generally don't allow swastikas to be on flags. I was using it as an exception to demonstrate a separate point.

I was referring to the "we don't allow" part which in its current form didn't appear to allow any swastika of any kind.

Quick question on another related note, can the CCP image be linked in signatures?

[Audioslavia]

Ah yes. My mistake. I was supposed to write 'in general' when I was referring to swastikas being banned.

Signatures are also held to a different standard than regular posts so I'd recommend people not push their luck with regards to COVID 19 takes in their sig.

[New Bremerton]

Here's the thread Lima recently started about the WHO. And here's the mod ruling. In what way does "China is manipulating WHO to downplay the pandemic" even remotely square with "posts that claim the virus is a government conspiracy", because I'm not seeing it. At. All. I am shocked, outraged, and disgusted. This is simply unbelievable.

LUNA did nothing wrong. The video she linked to, which was posted by a popular Taiwanese news channel and features a viral clip from RTHK, another Hong Kong-based, government-subsidized, impartial news channel, is entirely fact-based. To say that the WHO is being influenced by China in some way is not an unreasonable assertion to make and is a huge part of the reason Trump is rightly withholding funding for the WHO. I have shared YT videos where similar assertions about the WHO's systemic corruption have been made, and such videos have gone into extensive detail, citing mainstream sources that the mods deem reliable, such as WaPo, NYT, CNN, Reuters, BBC, etc., to make their case. These links in no way, shape or form, allege a deliberate, man-made conspiracy to manufacture a virus in a Chinese lab, and neither have LUNA or the link she included in the OP. Am I on the wrong side of the "misinformation" rule too? Simply put, WTF?

LUNA's thread was not a customizable field violation devoid of context and closed to discussion. It was, quite literally, a forum post for her to argue her point, as Reppy suggested should be the case. All she did was make a reasonable suggestion that the WHO in its current form should be abolished and replaced by something better. Is criticizing the WHO and questioning its credibility, or calling it the Wuhan Health Organization, totally off-limits now, because I myself have already been warned once before over a harmless flag that was ALSO misconstrued as "conspiracy trolling" for the EXACT SAME REASON, which I have already explained isn't the case despite attempts by certain individuals to smear me otherwise. It appears that this arbitrary and ridiculous interpretation apparently also applies to forum posts as well as flags despite claims to the contrary. I honestly don't know where the line is being drawn, and the mods, as part of their longstanding policy, are not going to be more specific.

In the wake of this ridiculous ruling, I'm now legitimately afraid I'll be warned again if I even attempt to broach the subject of the WHO's and China's (mis)handling of the corona pandemic, or share links from China Uncensored, America Uncovered or other sites that highlight legitimate concerns regarding both entities. People have a right to speak truth to power, not to be shut down by arbitrary "misinformation" warnings and bans, or I should police the MAGAthread right now to report players for spreading dangerous fake news about Trump's response to the coronavirus pandemic. And please don't insult my intelligence by linking to the FAQ section about "free speech". There is no "free speech" on this site. I get it. Forum posts and discourse should always be respectful and civil.

This "misinformation" rule has nothing whatsoever to do with it and nothing in common with the other site rules. Unlike the other rules, this one is particularly susceptible to bias. The WHO's inclusion as a legitimate source of medical info raised my suspicions early on, and this particular ruling against a player for challenging the WHO's legitimacy confirms those suspicions for all to see.

I don't blame the mods for the fact that plainly ridiculous and outrageous rulings like these are being handed down on an arbitrary basis. They're just doing the job Max Barry set for them. I blame Barry and Barry alone for contributing to a chilling effect vis a vis discussion of the WHO and the CCP. Can I flame him on this site? It's not like he even plays this game or posts on here. I have some choice words for him.

[Juristonia]

I suggest you stop playing his game then.
Alternatively, just get the hell over it and move on already.

[Twilight Imperium]

People have a right to speak truth to power, not to be shut down by arbitrary "misinformation" warnings and bans

In the wake of this ridiculous ruling, I'm now legitimately afraid I'll be warned again if I even attempt to broach the subject of the WHO's and China's (mis)handling of the corona pandemic, or share links from China Uncensored, America Uncovered or other sites that highlight legitimate concerns regarding both entities.

Well, you know what do to then!

[Lamoni]

I suggest you stop playing his game then.
Alternatively, just get the hell over it and move on already.

Juristonia has a point here, New Bremerton. You need to get over whinging about the rules, and either follow them, or get off the site.

[Kragholm Free States]

I suggest you stop playing his game then.
Alternatively, just get the hell over it and move on already.

Juristonia has a point here, New Bremerton. You need to get over whinging about the rules, and either follow them, or get off the site.

What are the rules though? Criticism of the WHO based on reputably-sourced allegations of CCP maniuplation is not a conspiracy theory nor misinformation, yet it's been ruled as such. Where is the line? What is misinformation and what is simply information, according to the rules? When does a conspiracy theory become an actual conspiracy, according to the rules? Is it because the WHO has been listed as a reliable source by moderation? In which case why is criticism of it backed up by other mod-designated reliable sources considered actionable?

I realise moderation won't rule on hypotheticals, and for good reason, but keeping the rules needlessly vague and ambiguous - especially such a new and unprecedented rule as this - is incredibly counterproductive.

[Juristonia]

Plenty of people are criticising the WHO on these boards. Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with that.
The fact that a lot of those criticisms come from, and I'm putting this very mildly, questionable sources seems to be what's the issue here.
Unsubstantiated blurbs from dodgy youtube channels like (for example) China Uncensored or America Uncovered just aren't credible, and treating them as such is potentially harmful.

[New Bremerton]

People have a right to speak truth to power, not to be shut down by arbitrary "misinformation" warnings and bans

In the wake of this ridiculous ruling, I'm now legitimately afraid I'll be warned again if I even attempt to broach the subject of the WHO's and China's (mis)handling of the corona pandemic, or share links from China Uncensored, America Uncovered or other sites that highlight legitimate concerns regarding both entities.

Well, you know what do to then!

Which is?

I suggest you stop playing his game then.
Alternatively, just get the hell over it and move on already.

Juristonia has a point here, New Bremerton. You need to get over whinging about the rules, and either follow them, or get off the site.

Pointing out bias and arbitrary enforcement of this particular coronavirus rule is more than just whining about the rules, or one rule in particular.

You guys seem more than happy to see me and several others driven off this site for having a slightly different take on the coronavirus situation that you people happen to consider "misinformation", but I'm not going anywhere, and I'd rather not have to be forced to suffer in silence all over again, least of all because I recently made this site my main place to air my opinions on many issues. I have recently taken to censoring myself on Facebook and various other sites because the authorities in Hong Kong and Malaysia don't take too kindly to certain kinds of speech that they happen to dislike, including "misinformation" and "sedition". This is exactly what this is. Thank you, Max Barry.

Plenty of people are criticising the WHO on these boards. Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with that.
The fact that a lot of those criticisms come from, and I'm putting this very mildly, questionable sources seems to be what's the issue here.
Unsubstantiated blurbs from dodgy youtube channels like (for example) China Uncensored or America Uncovered just aren't credible, and treating them as such is potentially harmful.

So it's confirmed then? Chris Chappell is spreading "fake news" and China Uncensored and America Uncovered are "questionable sources". Color me surprised. You've basically just answered an earlier question of mine that the mods have refused to answer to date. It's good to know exactly where this site and many of its users stand, and how their version of the truth vis a vis the coronavirus pandemic differs considerably from mine. Looks like I'm going to have to tread extra-carefully around the WHO and CCP's handling of the coronavirus, albeit not without first airing my displeasure and/or inserting a disclaimer, until this ridiculous rule is finally rescinded and I, LUNA, and others can let loose with all the facts, and yes, these are FACTS, about the WHO, the CCP and the virus without having the mods constantly breathe down our necks. Until then, I will patiently bide my time.

Thank you for clearing things up. This is exactly what I needed to hear.

As for LUNA's source, Formosa Television and RTHK are both credible, mainstream sources in their respective countries. Her passing comment about the WHO's credibility is the kind of comment any reasonable person would make after watching that video, because who wouldn't draw such a conclusion? I watched the full RTHK episode and the context is clear.

[Vassenor]

Well, you know what do to then!

Which is?

If you disagree with the rules, the door is over there. That's about it.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Here's the thread Lima recently started about the WHO. And here's the mod ruling. In what way does "China is manipulating WHO to downplay the pandemic" even remotely square with "posts that claim the virus is a government conspiracy", because I'm not seeing it.

I have to agree with this. While Lima has been a bit on the angry and emotional side over all this in no way was that thread a "post that claims the virus is a government conspiracy", and Reppy warning him for it just makes me think English isn't Reppy's native language and something got lost in translation.

While it's not conclusive there's also a pretty decent set of circumstances that make it seem like the virus might have gotten into the wild after a leak from the WIV. There are state department cables regarding the piss poor safety procedures of the institute and our intelligence agencies have been looking into the matter, and China's total information crackdown on the origins of the virus really makes you wonder why they would do that if it wasn't from a FUBAR on their end. Does believing that is indeed what happened make someone Sinophobic or act as a "claim that the virus is a government conspiracy"? Honestly this entire new rule just seems like an incredibly poorly thought out kneejerk response that hasn't done anything useful.

[Phydios]

While I am very anti-conspiracy, the possibility that COVID-19 came from a Chinese lab is now being investigated by the US and reported on by CNN, which is generally seen as mainstream and reliable. At what point does this theory cross from "misinformation/conspiracy" to "reputable"?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/0 ... ronavirus/

[LiberNovusAmericae]

-snip-

Indeed. All that is being said is that China is trying to downplay things because the government fears looking bad due to how they're handling the crisis. It's not the same thing as saying that the virus was created by a government as a bioweapon or a NWO conspiracy or some other type of nonsense.

[Nakena]

While I am very anti-conspiracy, the possibility that COVID-19 came from a Chinese lab is now being investigated by the US and reported on by CNN, which is generally seen as mainstream and reliable. At what point does this theory cross from "misinformation/conspiracy" to "reputable"?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/0 ... ronavirus/

It's also reported in detail about by the BBC and the Washington Post.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52318539

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... naviruses/

[New Bremerton]

Here's the thread Lima recently started about the WHO. And here's the mod ruling. In what way does "China is manipulating WHO to downplay the pandemic" even remotely square with "posts that claim the virus is a government conspiracy", because I'm not seeing it.

I have to agree with this. While Lima has been a bit on the angry and emotional side over all this in no way was that thread a "post that claims the virus is a government conspiracy", and Reppy warning him for it just makes me think English isn't Reppy's native language and something got lost in translation.

While it's not conclusive there's also a pretty decent set of circumstances that make it seem like the virus might have gotten into the wild after a leak from the WIV. There are state department cables regarding the piss poor safety procedures of the institute and our intelligence agencies have been looking into the matter, and China's total information crackdown on the origins of the virus really makes you wonder why they would do that if it wasn't from a FUBAR on their end. Does believing that is indeed what happened make someone Sinophobic or act as a "claim that the virus is a government conspiracy"? Honestly this entire new rule just seems like an incredibly poorly thought out kneejerk response that hasn't done anything useful.

And foisted onto the site's users all of a sudden with no official expiration date except "when Max feels like it". If intelligence agencies or "legitimate" media sources suddenly confirm something that was previously deemed to be a conspiracy theory because an authoritarian regime isn't being entirely honest and transparent, thereby inviting needless speculation, does that suddenly make it "no longer misinformation"? How, pray, do I accuse the WHO of corruption and its alleged ties to the CCP without running afoul of the corona "misinfo" rule and being falsely labeled a "conspiracy theorist", even though suspicions abound even in mainstream media sources such as DW and RTHK, as well as the Trump Administration? I wonder if it's even possible.

Who's to dictate what sources are legitimate and what aren't, and what constitutes truth vs fiction? Because my truth fails to conform exactly with that of the mods and many other site users. Are the mods even properly trained in fact-checking to begin with, like many so-called "journalists" in MSM claim to be and whose reporting I rely on in conjunction with less mainstream, exclusively online sources of info? This is more about saving Max Barry's skin than anything else. But hey, I get it. Either we take the fall, or he does. It's a legal zero-sum game for him in his home country of Australia. Still, I have some choice words for him. And, maybe, the Australian federal and Victorian state governments too over their stupid libel laws.

[Vassenor]

I have to agree with this. While Lima has been a bit on the angry and emotional side over all this in no way was that thread a "post that claims the virus is a government conspiracy", and Reppy warning him for it just makes me think English isn't Reppy's native language and something got lost in translation.

While it's not conclusive there's also a pretty decent set of circumstances that make it seem like the virus might have gotten into the wild after a leak from the WIV. There are state department cables regarding the piss poor safety procedures of the institute and our intelligence agencies have been looking into the matter, and China's total information crackdown on the origins of the virus really makes you wonder why they would do that if it wasn't from a FUBAR on their end. Does believing that is indeed what happened make someone Sinophobic or act as a "claim that the virus is a government conspiracy"? Honestly this entire new rule just seems like an incredibly poorly thought out kneejerk response that hasn't done anything useful.

And foisted onto the site's users all of a sudden with no official expiration date except "when Max feels like it". If intelligence agencies or "legitimate" media sources suddenly confirm something that was previously deemed to be a conspiracy theory because an authoritarian regime isn't being entirely honest and transparent, thereby inviting needless speculation, does that suddenly make it "no longer misinformation"? How, pray, do I accuse the WHO of corruption and its alleged ties to the CCP without running afoul of the corona "misinfo" rule and being falsely labeled a "conspiracy theorist", even though suspicions abound even in mainstream media sources such as DW and RTHK, as well as the Trump Administration? I wonder if it's even possible.

Who's to dictate what sources are legitimate and what aren't, and what constitutes truth vs fiction? Because my truth fails to conform exactly with that of the mods and many other site users. Are the mods even properly trained in fact-checking to begin with, like many so-called "journalists" in MSM claim to be and whose reporting I rely on in conjunction with less mainstream, exclusively online sources of info? This is more about saving Max Barry's skin than anything else. But hey, I get it. Either we take the fall, or he does. It's a legal zero-sum game for him in his home country of Australia. Still, I have some choice words for him. And, maybe, the Australian federal and Victorian state governments too over their stupid libel laws.

If you hate how the site is run so much, why are you still here?