In light of the autism discussion thread...

[United Muscovite Nations]

In the past, I've been told that the reason we couldn't have a mental illness support thread like the one we have for trans people is that it would invite trolling and bullying. We have now seen from the autism discussion thread that it actually invites support and can help understanding. Can there be any update on that policy? It would provide a valuable place for venting about mental health related struggles (which is seemingly all that happens in the ADT and TDT anyway). If the ADT is allowed, then why not a mental illness thread?

[Katganistan]

We have had mental health threads before, which have devolved into players suggesting others should self-harm, and none of us are trained mental health workers. For the safety of everyone involved, it was decided that such threads should not exist.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

We have had mental health threads before, which have devolved into players suggesting others should self-harm, and none of us are trained mental health workers. For the safety of everyone involved, it was decided that such threads should not exist.

As someone who has suffered my fair share of mental health issues in the past, I find this stance from the moderation team both highly ignorant and patronising in the extreme. If people suggest that somebody self-harms, they should be reported like anybody else who breaks the rules. Mental health discussion is far too often pushed out of online communities, where it can be most helpful for many people dealing with mental health related conditions because of a fear of bullying or the moderation staff of the community worrying about a larger workload. In my 11th year on the site I honestly thought we were better than that.

[The New California Republic]

If people suggest that somebody self-harms, they should be reported like anybody else who breaks the rules.

But by the time Moderation intervenes the harm—literally in this case—will in all likelihood have already occurred. Hence the outright ban on threads that may invite such talk.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If people suggest that somebody self-harms, they should be reported like anybody else who breaks the rules.

But by the time Moderation intervenes the harm—literally in this case—will in all likelihood have already occurred. Hence the outright ban on threads that may invite such talk.

Then why not ban the two other threads that invite such talk? The only reason I can think for it is that one existed before the rule was made, and the other was made without even asking moderation. As it stands, the only way you're allowed to tell other people on the site about your mental health struggles is through either TG or if you're a transsexual.

[The New California Republic]

But by the time Moderation intervenes the harm—literally in this case—will in all likelihood have already occurred. Hence the outright ban on threads that may invite such talk.

Then why not ban the two other threads that invite such talk? The only reason I can think for it is that one existed before the rule was made, and the other was made without even asking moderation. As it stands, the only way you're allowed to tell other people on the site about your mental health struggles is through either TG or if you're a transsexual.

Do they though? I'd argue that a general mental illness thread, since it has a much wider base of discussion, would be a much bigger and overt target for suggesting people harm/kill themselves.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Then why not ban the two other threads that invite such talk? The only reason I can think for it is that one existed before the rule was made, and the other was made without even asking moderation. As it stands, the only way you're allowed to tell other people on the site about your mental health struggles is through either TG or if you're a transsexual.

Do they though? I'd argue that a general mental illness thread, since it has a much wider base of discussion, would be a much bigger and overt target for suggesting people harm/kill themselves.

Trans people and people with Autism have high suicide rates compared to the general population and both have communities online that are basically dedicated to having them. Hell, it's shocking the trans thread doesn't get more raids, the fact that it doesn't should show that a support thread is a viable concept.

[Grenartia]

I wouldn't say that all that happens in the TDT is support. There is a lot of debate, often from transphobic people. We try our best to put out the fires, but unless there's actual rulebreaking going on, there's nothing we can do to get it to stop.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I wouldn't say that all that happens in the TDT is support. There is a lot of debate, often from transphobic people. We try our best to put out the fires, but unless there's actual rulebreaking going on, there's nothing we can do to get it to stop.

There could be in a mental illness support thread too, with people sharing their experiences, that sort of thing. My point though is that there is already a thread that could potentially invite large numbers of people raiding to tell people to kill themselves.

[United Republic Empire]

But by the time Moderation intervenes the harm—literally in this case—will in all likelihood have already occurred. Hence the outright ban on threads that may invite such talk.

Then why not ban the two other threads that invite such talk? The only reason I can think for it is that one existed before the rule was made, and the other was made without even asking moderation. As it stands, the only way you're allowed to tell other people on the site about your mental health struggles is through either TG or if you're a transsexual.

Because one discusses mental health illnesses and the other about trans life. I have to wonder and ask if you're comparing the two because you believe being trans is a mental disorder ??. Not accusing, just asking.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Then why not ban the two other threads that invite such talk? The only reason I can think for it is that one existed before the rule was made, and the other was made without even asking moderation. As it stands, the only way you're allowed to tell other people on the site about your mental health struggles is through either TG or if you're a transsexual.

Because one discusses mental health illnesses and the other about trans life. I have to wonder and ask if you're comparing the two because you believe being trans is a mental disorder ??. Not accusing, just asking.

No, because their community has a higher suicide rate than any mental illness and has a dedicated online community that hates them. If they don't get raided routinely by people telling them to go kill themselves, then it seems unlikely that such would happen in a mental illness thread.

[Grenartia]

I wouldn't say that all that happens in the TDT is support. There is a lot of debate, often from transphobic people. We try our best to put out the fires, but unless there's actual rulebreaking going on, there's nothing we can do to get it to stop.

There could be in a mental illness support thread too, with people sharing their experiences, that sort of thing. My point though is that there is already a thread that could potentially invite large numbers of people raiding to tell people to kill themselves.

I mean, I get your point. I even agree with it on some level. But as far as I can tell, the primary function of TDT, at least from Moderation's official POV, is debate and discussion, not support (it just so happens to do that in a secondary and unofficial capacity). In order for there to be support as a primary function, any thread would probably have to be a safe space, which means Moderation has to focus more of their energy on enforcing the safe space, and you'll get trolls coming in, and trolling simply because they hate the fact that a safe space exists anywhere. There just isn't the institutional willpower to have official support threads. I hate it, but that's the way things currently stand.

[Katganistan]

Because one discusses mental health illnesses and the other about trans life. I have to wonder and ask if you're comparing the two because you believe being trans is a mental disorder ??. Not accusing, just asking.

No, because their community has a higher suicide rate than any mental illness and has a dedicated online community that hates them. If they don't get raided routinely by people telling them to go kill themselves, then it seems unlikely that such would happen in a mental illness thread.

Except that we have had this happen in the past and that is why we don't allow it.

So please don't sit here saying it wouldn't happen when that's exactly what did.

There are sites that are set up to accommodate mental health support groups. This is not one of them.

[United Muscovite Nations]

There could be in a mental illness support thread too, with people sharing their experiences, that sort of thing. My point though is that there is already a thread that could potentially invite large numbers of people raiding to tell people to kill themselves.

I mean, I get your point. I even agree with it on some level. But as far as I can tell, the primary function of TDT, at least from Moderation's official POV, is debate and discussion, not support (it just so happens to do that in a secondary and unofficial capacity). In order for there to be support as a primary function, any thread would probably have to be a safe space, which means Moderation has to focus more of their energy on enforcing the safe space, and you'll get trolls coming in, and trolling simply because they hate the fact that a safe space exists anywhere. There just isn't the institutional willpower to have official support threads. I hate it, but that's the way things currently stand.

Then why not just not have support as the primary function? I say support, but what I would really like is just a place where people can discuss their experiences, discuss the state of mental healthcare, discuss issues about discrimination, etc.

[Grenartia]

I mean, I get your point. I even agree with it on some level. But as far as I can tell, the primary function of TDT, at least from Moderation's official POV, is debate and discussion, not support (it just so happens to do that in a secondary and unofficial capacity). In order for there to be support as a primary function, any thread would probably have to be a safe space, which means Moderation has to focus more of their energy on enforcing the safe space, and you'll get trolls coming in, and trolling simply because they hate the fact that a safe space exists anywhere. There just isn't the institutional willpower to have official support threads. I hate it, but that's the way things currently stand.

Then why not just not have support as the primary function? I say support, but what I would really like is just a place where people can discuss their experiences, discuss the state of mental healthcare, discuss issues about discrimination, etc.

I don't necessarily see why you can't make that thread as long as you're clear that's the intention behind it.

[Farnhamia]

Then why not just not have support as the primary function? I say support, but what I would really like is just a place where people can discuss their experiences, discuss the state of mental healthcare, discuss issues about discrimination, etc.

I don't necessarily see why you can't make that thread as long as you're clear that's the intention behind it.

I've recommended to the Team that we allow this. Please be patient.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I don't necessarily see why you can't make that thread as long as you're clear that's the intention behind it.

I've recommended to the Team that we allow this. Please be patient.

I appreciate it, Farn! If it doesn't work out, it can always be locked.

[The New California Republic]

Do they though? I'd argue that a general mental illness thread, since it has a much wider base of discussion, would be a much bigger and overt target for suggesting people harm/kill themselves.

Trans people and people with Autism have high suicide rates compared to the general population and both have communities online that are basically dedicated to having them. Hell, it's shocking the trans thread doesn't get more raids, the fact that it doesn't should show that a support thread is a viable concept.

Tbh the TDT hasn't been that bad in the past few months, but it has previously had a tendency to get pretty bad in terms of people just parachuting in to hurl abuse.

[Grenartia]

I don't necessarily see why you can't make that thread as long as you're clear that's the intention behind it.

I've recommended to the Team that we allow this. Please be patient.

Thanks, Farn.

Trans people and people with Autism have high suicide rates compared to the general population and both have communities online that are basically dedicated to having them. Hell, it's shocking the trans thread doesn't get more raids, the fact that it doesn't should show that a support thread is a viable concept.

Tbh the TDT hasn't been that bad in the past few months, but it has previously had a tendency to get pretty bad in terms of people just parachuting in to hurl abuse.

Part of me thinks pre-empting the most common types of bullshit with that meme at the start has helped.

[Ethel mermania]

Please no,

the lack of qualified people on this site to talk about mental illness is frightening. Bad advice as it is abounds. Not to mention potential liability to the site for it. In the USA there may be some protection in section 230, other nations, not so much.

[The New California Republic]

Please no,

the lack of qualified people on this site to talk about mental illness is frightening. Bad advice as it is abounds. Not to mention potential liability to the site for it. In the USA there may be some protection in section 230, other nations, not so much.

Tbh I'm also quite worried about the amateur psychiatrists coming crawling out of the woodwork and giving bad and damaging advice in such a thread...

[Frisbeeteria]

I'm also quite worried about the amateur psychiatrists coming crawling out of the woodwork

We're also worried about the people who expect a bunch of internet moderators to step up as professional therapists and resolve the problems created by the amateurs.

We're not in that business. We have no training. We have no special knowledge. Despite that, people expect us to act as "professionals" and throw tantrums when we don't step in and resolve things. From our perspective, such threads are a no-win scenario.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Please no,

the lack of qualified people on this site to talk about mental illness is frightening. Bad advice as it is abounds. Not to mention potential liability to the site for it. In the USA there may be some protection in section 230, other nations, not so much.

As much as I understand the desire to help or give some people a place to vent, when it comes to mental illness, I agree that this is best left in the hands of healthcare professionals. Even with good intentions, you can give someone ‘advice’ that can turn out to be more harmful than good. That’s one Pandora’s box we should never open.

[Grenartia]

Please no,

the lack of qualified people on this site to talk about mental illness is frightening. Bad advice as it is abounds. Not to mention potential liability to the site for it. In the USA there may be some protection in section 230, other nations, not so much.

As much as I understand the desire to help or give some people a place to vent, when it comes to mental illness, I agree that this is best left in the hands of healthcare professionals. Even with good intentions, you can give someone ‘advice’ that can turn out to be more harmful than good. That’s one Pandora’s box we should never open.

If memory serves, that same "bad advice" objection was raised in connection to the TDT, but that has not really borne out. If its really a concern, then as long as there's a blanket "we're not professional mental health experts, seek such persons for such advice", and it is enforced, is there really a problem?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As much as I understand the desire to help or give some people a place to vent, when it comes to mental illness, I agree that this is best left in the hands of healthcare professionals. Even with good intentions, you can give someone ‘advice’ that can turn out to be more harmful than good. That’s one Pandora’s box we should never open.

If memory serves, that same "bad advice" objection was raised in connection to the TDT, but that has not really borne out. If its really a concern, then as long as there's a blanket "we're not professional mental health experts, seek such persons for such advice", and it is enforced, is there really a problem?

I think it’s been said already that by the time something like that is said or enforced, damage could already be done. Especially with younger posters. I don’t think the site should risk that.