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Rule Clarification - Copy-pasting content onto multiple RMBs

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The Ambassadors Reception
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Rule Clarification - Copy-pasting content onto multiple RMBs

Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:08 pm

Hi,

A moderator responding to my Getting Help Request advised me that this forum was the place to raise my specific concern.
re: The Ambassadors Reception's Help Request (#268724)
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We don't need gigantic wall-of-text Getting Help reports about a matter of policy. Our rules were put in place because the majority of our players do not share your opinion of how enjoyable mult-regional copypasta can be. If you want to start a discussion thread on a rule change, do so in the Moderation forum. Getting Help is not the place for such requests.


The GHR read something like:

"Task ID:#255466

Response:

Hi,

I know it has been several months since this particular incident, but I would like to revisit the issue of players posting the same content onto multiple embassy RMBs. As I indicated in my previous query (if my records are accurate), I would like this to be considered and discussed by the wider moderation team, and not just an individual moderator.

The previous response to my query failed to address my concerns in a constructive manner. In the time since, I am seeing an increase in the volume and severity of moderator action being taken on this issue. I am seeing entire posting histories of nations being deleted. I am seeing nations being deleted. I am seeing players being puppet swept. I feel that the action being taken seems disproportionate. I feel that the action being taken is unnecessary.

I would like to highlight again that posting the same copy-pasted content to multiple RMBs is not explicitly prohibited in the “spam” section of the one-stop rule shop. This lack of clarity is causing confusion amongst players. Some players are asking for me to confirm by telegram, or by posting on their RMB that I am willing to accept their posts. Others are asking for me to ensure my region is tagged "Recruitment Friendly". Players are simply unsure as to what acceptable behaviour is here. No one knows what the rules are. No one knows if they are breaking the rules. Everyone is wondering why they are being punished.

Typically copy-paste content is pasted to embassy RMBs. The only practical purpose of having an embassy is the ability to post on each other's RMBs (admin settings permitting). This unpublished ruling imposes a situation where players can communicate with their embassies, but they're not allowed to communicate the same message to each embassy. This impedes players' abilities to treat embassy regions equally.

Copy-paste messages often invite nations in embassy regions to take part in an event or poll (so building a sense of community via shared activity), or spread news (building a sense of community via sharing information).

By clicking 'like’ or 'upvote’, by voting in polls, or joining in events, players give quantifiable positive feedback to the copy-paster. The copy-paster is then able to retrospectively make a judgement as to whether the chore of copy-pasting is worth it. This influences their future copy-paste choices.

Of course, there is sometimes negative feedback too, either via telegram or quoted RMB posts, or GHRs to moderators. And this is where our collective problem lies.

It is important to respect the desire of other players to have a spam-free RMB, and I accept that there should be rules in place to handle this. The rule for RMB spam stated in the one-stop rule shop appears to place the responsibility for dealing with such spam to the regional officers. I don't understand why copy-paste is apparently treated as an exception to this approach, especially when a large number of regions and players do not view the same post as being spam.

For my part, I love these posts. I like the creativity. I like the raps. I like the newspapers. I like the polls. I don't want this wonderful world taken away from me. How can we create an environment which allows this creativity to blossom, without the threat of deletion?

I see two obvious solutions to this issue. One (which I don't like) is for the moderation team to explicitly declare this action to be spam in the one-stop-rule shop. The advantage would be that everyone was clear about what was expected of them. The disadvantage is that NS would be a less interesting and appealing place.

Another option would be to encourage players to take responsibility for their own lives, and learn something about diplomacy. As mentioned in my previous query, players have a number of avenues open to them to deal with unwanted posts [Edit: details in the "My follow-up question" spoiler below]. Players learning to deal with their own problems should also reduce overall demand on the moderation team, making your lives that little bit easier.

There may of course be other solutions which I haven’t thought of."

Since filing the GHR, another solution has been suggested to me. Maybe a new region tag, "Subscriptions", could be used to indicate that the region was willing to accept pre-agreed copy-paste content.

As background to all this, I had originally raised a GHR back in April asking why a player's post on my RMB had been suppressed by a moderator. The player had been posting their newspaper dispatch.
re: The Ambassadors Reception's Help Request (#255257)
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Posting the same copy-pasted content to multiple RMBs is spam per site rules. When multi-regional spam is reported, we warn and suppress. Your desire to read it does not override site rules.

Hi,

Thanks for your response. I'd appreciate if the moderation team would review this rule.

“Copy-paste” posts are made once in each region. The majority of players only experience the post once, on the RMB of their home region. They aren't experiencing their RMB being filled with unwanted information, only a single instance of the post. (Admittedly, if there are a number of such posts in succession on the same RMB, then yes, it clearly would qualify as spam).

Players have a number of options available to them to deal with posts of this kind if they are unwanted. The first, and most obvious, is to contact the poster and ask them not to post similar content again in that region. Alternatively, they can ask their regional officers to take action.

Regional officers have a number of tools available at their disposal. In the one-stop rules shop, it states:
“Founders and regional officers they designate may suppress spam (or any other messages) on the regional message board.”

Regional officers also have the option of banning the offending nation, so preventing them posting again.

Posts of this kind can only be made from embassy regions. The regional government can choose to close the embassy.

Nations and regions already have a wide choice of ways to stop what they see as spam. There should be no need for moderator intervention unless these avenues have been exhausted.

This game is about politics. It makes sense that players attempt to address their problems via diplomacy, rather than straight away appealing to the highest authority.

Regions such as The Independent Newspaper were created with the specific intention of distributing news. Any region agreeing to an embassy with them should have had a fairly good idea of what they were agreeing to. And if they decide they don't like it, they can easily terminate the relationship.

Other regions create entertaining polls. There is no easy link to find eligible polls. So to get participation, polls need to be advertised. If a region does not want to receive such an advertisement, it should be fairly easy to negotiate with the embassy region.

Creative thought, work, and energy have gone into these newspapers and polls. And this creativity is being suppressed.

It seems to me grossly unfair that an unidentified player in another region can have messages on my RMB suppressed. The problem is on their RMB, not mine. Why should my region’s access to news and entertainment be curtailed by a player who has nothing to do with my region?

I would also note that posting the same copy-pasted content to multiple RMBs is not explicitly prohibited in the “spam” section of the one-stop rule shop.

Thanks for your consideration.



re: The Ambassadors Reception's Help Request (#255466)
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Our site rules have been, long before you arrived and decided everyone needs to see your newspaper, that splashing the same post across multiple regions is spamming.

When people have YOUR posts splashed across THEIR region and see that it's being splashed across other regions and report it as spam, we deal with it accordingly and appropriately.

You are not going to convince us to change the policy we've had for nearly fifteen years by saying "well they can just clean it up after the fact." No. They don't need to change their behavior. You do.

And "they should know what accepting an embassy with the region will entail" -- Do you inform them that you will be posting news on their RMB through your embassy connection on a regular basis? And exactly how many times? Or do you ask for an embassy and then get peeved when they report that you're clogging up their rmb with many unwanted messages?

Nobody enjoys getting continually robocalled at dinnertime, and while telegrams can be put on the "do not call list" to continue this analogy, rmbs can't. That's when the FTC (Moderation) steps in.

*You* need to change to satisfy the way the rest of this site has always operated. It's not going to change because you say so.

(Note that I have another nation, The NewsStand. It is unclear in this response whether the moderator is aware of this, or whether they mistook me for the player behind The Independent Newspaper.)


The relevant parts of The One-Stop Rule Shop Spam section appear to be:

*Regional Message Board Spam: Posting multiple messages on your message board within a short period of time can be considered message board spam. Founders and regional officers they designate may suppress spam (or any other messages) on the regional message board.


and more tenuously:

*Regional Advertising Spam: The only places where you are allowed to put region advertisements are: The Gameplay Forum (they will be deleted if posted elsewhere) and the regional message boards of the game-created regions (The Pacific, The North Pacific, The East Pacific, The South Pacific, The West Pacific, Lazarus, Osiris, Balder, The Rejected Realms and the Official Warzones). Note that it is not legal to advertise in copycat regions such as "West Pacific". One ad per 24-hour period or per 10 posted messages, whichever is longer.

RMB Ads are allowed in player-created regions if and only if the region has a "Recruiter Friendly" tag.


Thank you for your attention.

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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:46 am

I would like to post here:

I do a regional polls for my region and of course, I do post them in other regions for fun. I have asked I believe for the most part when I do post said polls, if I'm allowed to and if they say yes, I continue to do so. If no, I don't. Now, I do a poll every 1-2 weeks so I'm spamming in terms of multiple polls a week. But I do post the same underlining message:

New poll in Zentari. Come and vote!

*polling question


So I'll ask for guidance in this case to avoid the Mods wrath.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:39 am

Zurkerx wrote:to avoid the Mods wrath.

Just to clarify, we don't go looking for spammers to kill. We usually just respond to complaints.

Zurkerx wrote:I have asked I believe for the most part when I do post said polls, if I'm allowed to and if they say yes, I continue to do so. If no, I don't.

Getting a single "yes" in a region doesn't prevent the other residents from complaining. If somebody complains and we see multi-regional copypasta, that looks an awful lot like "unwelcome spamming". We're not going to search through the RMB or telegrams of everyone in the region to see if you asked first.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:posting the same copy-pasted content to multiple RMBs is not explicitly prohibited in the “spam” section of the one-stop rule shop.

Nothing is explicitly defined for the simple reason that every case is potentially different, and setting explicit conditions means that you can evade the rule by making minor variants that aren't covered. If we say "you can't post the same content", you're surely violating the intent by posting "Come vote in our poll" in one region and "we have a new poll" in the next. It's still multi-regional posting of the same thing.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:For my part, I love these posts.

You're not the only person who uses the RMB. Most people don't seem to agree with you ... or perhaps they're just better at complaining than you are.

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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:44 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:I have asked I believe for the most part when I do post said polls, if I'm allowed to and if they say yes, I continue to do so. If no, I don't.

Getting a single "yes" in a region doesn't prevent the other residents from complaining. If somebody complains and we see multi-regional copypasta, that looks an awful lot like "unwelcome spamming". We're not going to search through the RMB or telegrams of everyone in the region to see if you asked first.


I probably should have specified a bit more: I asked the founder (if active), the WA Delegate, or a Regional Officer of high authority for the most part, seeing they're the ones that control their respective region; I have sometimes just post on their RMB asking. But if their "yes" isn't going to be good enough, I'll have to rethink my strategy then.

But considering I've been doing this for a while and no has complained, I think I'm good for right now. However, with this being brought to my attention, I'll have to figure out how to "notify" regions we have embassies with on when I do a poll (I do one every 1-2 weeks) without breaking said site rules.

Thank you for taking your time for answering here.
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The Ambassadors Reception
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Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:31 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:For my part, I love these posts.

You're not the only person who uses the RMB. Most people don't seem to agree with you ... or perhaps they're just better at complaining than you are.


No, that's not the case. For example, both nations in region The NewsStand are mine. There is a password on the region, and no other player has been inside for a long time. I don't believe I've ever complained to moderation about any of the posts there. Yet posts are getting deleted by moderators.

For example, this link shows that recently Dragontale and Salibaic both had their posts deleted. Salibaic had posted a copy of their recent Regional newspaper. Dragontale had posted something about music, if I remember correctly. Both posts would have met the PG13 criteria etc. Both were sharing information about their region and projects. They were sharing this information with an embassy region that actively encourages such sharing. It's not like they were posting the Bee Movie script.

Whoever complained about them was not in my region, yet the complainer is affecting my region, and having a detrimental impact on my enjoyment of the game.

Salibaic had their entire posting history deleted. This seems a disproportional mod response to a player sharing their dispatch.

Dragontale also had their entire posting history deleted, and their nation was deleted too.

Looking back through The NewsStand RMB, I can also see The Times Editor having their post history deleted, even though it looks like they only ever made two posts.

It is unfair that an anonymous player in another region is controlling the content I can see on my own RMB.

Frisbeeteria wrote:
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:posting the same copy-pasted content to multiple RMBs is not explicitly prohibited in the “spam” section of the one-stop rule shop.

Nothing is explicitly defined for the simple reason that every case is potentially different, and setting explicit conditions means that you can evade the rule by making minor variants that aren't covered. If we say "you can't post the same content", you're surely violating the intent by posting "Come vote in our poll" in one region and "we have a new poll" in the next. It's still multi-regional posting of the same thing.


If I ask my friends in two or more embassy regions to vote in my poll, I run the risk of getting deleted. Does that honestly seem a rational response to you?

As I have pointed out previously, there are a number of tools for players to use to deal with unwanted posts. One, try asking the offender not to post again. Two, get an RO to ban the nation. Three, change the Admin setting to control who from embassy regions can post on the RMB. Four, get an RO to close the embassy. That's a lot of steps that can be taken before we get to Five, have a mod delete their nation.

Any other form of RMB spam is expected to be dealt with by ROs first. Why is this "spam" the exception?

This is a serious issue that is impacting me, has impacted Dragontale, is impacting my embassies. It is putting the fear into our community of players that our accounts will be deleted for the crime of communicating with each other. I would like this issue taken seriously by the moderation team.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:[somebody] had their entire posting history deleted

Yes, we mod-suppress or delete the post history of copypasta spammers. We can do a one-button generic suppress in about 2 seconds, or spend an hour going through dozens or hundreds of posts trying to figure out which ones are wanted and which ones aren't. I'm not going to apologize for picking the easy method. 99% of the time it is the appropriate approach.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:If I ask my friends in two or more embassy regions to vote in my poll, I run the risk of getting deleted. Does that honestly seem a rational response to you?

We don't delete on first offense by any given player, unless the spam is offensive or egregious, so I'm not seeing a fairness issue. Creating new puppets to continue spamming after being warned on other puppets will be treated as posts by the same nation/player. Therefore, if cross-regional posting is pretty much all you do here, then yes, you're at risk of deletion. That seems entirely rational to me.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:One, try asking the offender not to post again.

Uh huh. One of our mass spammers has been "asked" something like 50 times, and we've been dealing with complaints about them for several months now. Even losing nations doesn't curtail them for more than an hour.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Two, get an RO to ban the nation. Three, change the Admin setting to control who from embassy regions can post on the RMB. Four, get an RO to close the embassy.

How many regions do they need to get banned from on each puppet before it becomes necessary for mod action? How much handholding do you expect us to do? You may have only a two-nation region to keep track of. We've got 171,995 nations in 21,798 regions right this instant. Your solution is not scalable to our level.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:It is unfair that an anonymous player in another region is controlling the content I can see on my own RMB.

Then it's unfair. The volunteer mods devote an awful lot of time to keeping this game running. It's too much to ask for us to keep track of the preferences of 30,000-50,000 individual players.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm

Can I ask where the sense is in allowing people to report what they see as spam in other regions in the first place?
Unless the spam is obvious (adspam etc), the other regions might want the post there, and some random person in a different region is not well-placed to make that judgement.
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:39 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Can I ask where the sense is in allowing people to report what they see as spam in other regions in the first place?
Unless the spam is obvious (adspam etc), the other regions might want the post there, and some random person in a different region is not well-placed to make that judgement.

Because, contrary to popular belief, RMBs are not private clubhouses. If people see something potentially actionable, they should report it; similarly, just because someone isn't a participant in a thread, if they see something they think is actionable, they should report that, too. Oh, and because a region's membership/founder/Regional Officers, same as a thread OP, and any potential "rules" they may make are superseded by the OSRS and Terms & Conditions - certainly supersede any potential regional rule or policy which may seek to contravene the OSRS and T&C.

When it's reported, we'll review it; if it's actionable and the person would like to appeal, citing reasoning, they can do so.
Last edited by Kyrusia on Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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THE HUMAN RADIO
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Postby THE HUMAN RADIO » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:07 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:We don't delete on first offense by any given player, unless the spam is offensive or egregious, so I'm not seeing a fairness issue. Creating new puppets to continue spamming after being warned on other puppets will be treated as posts by the same nation/player. Therefore, if cross-regional posting is pretty much all you do here, then yes, you're at risk of deletion. That seems entirely rational to me.

This is where I believe I should interject. My nation, DragonTale, had no warnings before not only having post history deleted, but being removed in its entirety without a single warning. Your statement seems hypocritical given that I received no warning on any nation that I controlled and was not posting offensive or egregious content that I was aware of, which brings about the conclusion that I was treated irrationally and unfairly by this code that has been stated above.

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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:18 pm

THE HUMAN RADIO wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:We don't delete on first offense by any given player, unless the spam is offensive or egregious, so I'm not seeing a fairness issue. Creating new puppets to continue spamming after being warned on other puppets will be treated as posts by the same nation/player. Therefore, if cross-regional posting is pretty much all you do here, then yes, you're at risk of deletion. That seems entirely rational to me.

This is where I believe I should interject. My nation, DragonTale, had no warnings before not only having post history deleted, but being removed in its entirety without a single warning. Your statement seems hypocritical given that I received no warning on any nation that I controlled and was not posting offensive or egregious content that I was aware of, which brings about the conclusion that I was treated irrationally and unfairly by this code that has been stated above.

If you wish to file an appeal, they need be filed via GHR, not in a discussion thread.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:19 am

Kyrusia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Can I ask where the sense is in allowing people to report what they see as spam in other regions in the first place?
Unless the spam is obvious (adspam etc), the other regions might want the post there, and some random person in a different region is not well-placed to make that judgement.

Because, contrary to popular belief, RMBs are not private clubhouses. If people see something potentially actionable, they should report it; similarly, just because someone isn't a participant in a thread, if they see something they think is actionable, they should report that, too. Oh, and because a region's membership/founder/Regional Officers, same as a thread OP, and any potential "rules" they may make are superseded by the OSRS and Terms & Conditions - certainly supersede any potential regional rule or policy which may seek to contravene the OSRS and T&C.

When it's reported, we'll review it; if it's actionable and the person would like to appeal, citing reasoning, they can do so.

So let me get this straight. If I'm the FA minister for a region, and I post our regional update on the regions which have embassies with us, and include a thing at the bottom telling regions that if they'd rather I didn't do that to tell me, that's spam? I must ask therefore what the point of the embassy is, if not so regions can update their friends and allies as to what's going on in their region. This rule makes absolutely no sense and cancels out the only benefit of a game feature.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:24 am

Just stopping by to say this is a bit odd, and that regions that allow embassy posting have opted in to allow posts from embassy regions. I too would assume the point of the embassy RMB posting is to allow for brief updates about the goings ons in a friendly region. To add to the above poster, what is the point of being able to restrict posting to ROs of embassy regions? That to me seems to confirm the idea of official updates being part of the plan here, and those are going to likely be copy and paste with possibly little personalized edits. That’s how GP embassies have worked since years before we had them in game.

I felt like “Embassies” were a way to allow the same type of FA activity in-game for communities that didn’t like to go offsite. I’d definitely agree with OP that the settings and such would leave a reasonable person to think this was OK, so there should be a clearer prohibition in OSRS.
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:58 pm

Because there's a difference between spamming and informing other regions through your embassy of certain pertinent activities. Just like there is a difference between going to every region you happen to share embassy posting rights with, and telling them to look at a dispatch you made, and informing embassy-shared regions of current activities. As Fris said, we don't go looking for spam that happens in this form; we rely on reports and judge accordingly, and in some cases, do state that an offense is so minor, suspending of privileges by the RO is sufficient as the content is otherwise not actionable.

When it gets beyond that point, it's spam, and we judge such accordingly when they arise.
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:01 pm

Kos Crueragle wrote:Why

Why what? This is a Moderation discussion thread.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:02 pm

Kyrusia wrote:Because there's a difference between spamming and informing other regions through your embassy of certain pertinent activities. Just like there is a difference between going to every region you happen to share embassy posting rights with, and telling them to look at a dispatch you made, and informing embassy-shared regions of current activities. As Fris said, we don't go looking for spam that happens in this form; we rely on reports and judge accordingly, and in some cases, do state that an offense is so minor, suspending of privileges by the RO is sufficient as the content is otherwise not actionable.

When it gets beyond that point, it's spam, and we judge such accordingly when they arise.

I struggle to even re-read Fris' posts as meaning such, but good to hear you're looking at the content of the post and allowing copy pasting legitimate regional/GP business.
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:05 pm

Weed wrote:
Kyrusia wrote:Because there's a difference between spamming and informing other regions through your embassy of certain pertinent activities. Just like there is a difference between going to every region you happen to share embassy posting rights with, and telling them to look at a dispatch you made, and informing embassy-shared regions of current activities. As Fris said, we don't go looking for spam that happens in this form; we rely on reports and judge accordingly, and in some cases, do state that an offense is so minor, suspending of privileges by the RO is sufficient as the content is otherwise not actionable.

When it gets beyond that point, it's spam, and we judge such accordingly when they arise.

I struggle to even re-read Fris' posts as meaning such, but good to hear you're looking at the content of the post and allowing copy pasting legitimate regional/GP business.

It's been a Moderation refrain ad nauseam for years that we judge cases contextually and individually. :P
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:13 pm

Kos Crueragle wrote:
Kyrusia wrote:Why what? This is a Moderation discussion thread.

But they aren't mods

This is a discussion thread in the Moderation board. Unless you have something pertinent to add to this discussion, I suggest you take your commentary elsewhere, less it be treated as spam. "Why" and other, drive-by posting isn't pertinent.
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Postby Katganistan » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Kos Crueragle wrote:
Kyrusia wrote:This is a discussion thread in the Moderation board. Unless you have something pertinent to add to this discussion, I suggest you take your commentary elsewhere, less it be treated as spam. "Why" and other, drive-by posting isn't pertinent.

This ain't spam bitch, I was justing asking a fucking simple question

And that's not the way to respond.

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The Ambassadors Reception
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Founded: Sep 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:42 pm

Kyrusia wrote:there's a difference between spamming and informing other regions through your embassy of certain pertinent activities.


I agree. Which is why I am frustrated that posts informing me of pertinent activities are being deleted.

Kyrusia wrote:If people see something potentially actionable, they should report it


I agree. I support that. However, in these instances, the content of the post is not actionable. These are run-of-the-mill embassy updates, newspapers, info about the embassy region. The only thing apparently "wrong" with these updates is that they are being posted on multiple embassy RMBs.

Kyrusia wrote:any potential "rules" they may make are superseded by the OSRS and Terms & Conditions - certainly supersede any potential regional rule or policy which may seek to contravene the OSRS and T&C.


Again, that's good. Again, I support that. However, I cannot find any written rule in the OSRS and T&Cs that prevents a player posting this kind of content on my RMB.

Which brings us back to the issue that players, acting in good faith, are being punished for unwittingly breaking an unwritten rule.

Frisbeeteria wrote:I'm not going to apologize for picking the easy method. 99% of the time it is the appropriate approach.


Fair enough. You guys have a lot of nonsense to deal with (as demonstrated by another poster in this thread...). I'd be looking for an easy method too. Let's see if we can identify a solution to this issue that doesn't increase your workload

Frisbeeteria wrote:One of our mass spammers has been "asked" something like 50 times


I sympathise with you. If I gave someone clear instructions, I don't think I would have any patience with someone who repeatedly ignored them. If there was a clear set of written rules about this issue, maybe you would have fewer "offenders" unintentionally breaking them, and so less workload to deal with.

Frisbeeteria wrote:"How much handholding do you expect us to do?"

An optimal minimum of handholding. If the content of the post is innocuous, leave it to the ROs to resolve. If an RO can fix it, why should you be getting dragged into it? Of course, if an RO feels the situation is beyond their abilities (for example, when a player circumvents bans by using puppets), then, yes, it seems reasonable for that RO to ask mods to get involved.

Frisbeeteria wrote:"Getting a single "yes" in a region doesn't prevent the other residents from complaining. If somebody complains and we see multi-regional copypasta, that looks an awful lot like "unwelcome spamming". We're not going to search through the RMB or telegrams of everyone in the region to see if you asked first."


Again, fair enough. I get that. So maybe it's best to leave it to the people on the ground, the ROs. They should have a better idea if the region has agreed to accept those type of posts.

The existing written rule in the OSRS strongly suggests that this is how unwanted RMB posts are to be handled.

Regional Message Board Spam: Posting multiple messages on your message board within a short period of time can be considered message board spam. Founders and regional officers they designate may suppress spam (or any other messages) on the regional message board.

At some point though, the moderation team appear to have deviated from this written standard, and started applying a different set of rules, and in the process created more work for themselves.

We need a single set of written rules that we can all commit to following. The easy solutions to this issue are:
1) Adjust the rules to make it clear that copy-pasting is unacceptable
2) Keep the rules as they are written, and don't enforce unwritten rules unnecessarily.

I don't like option 1. Reading above, it doesn't sit well with Zurkerx, Greater vakolicci haven, or Weed either. Or the people who have had their posts and nations deleted.

I do like option 2. It's consistent with how we have all been playing the game for years. It's easy to do - no changes to the OSRS, and less for you guys to enforce.

The current situation isn't good. We have players that no longer trust the moderators. There are suspicions of moderator bias. We have players wondering if they are allowed to post links to their polls, or updates about their regional affairs. Over in Christmas, the ROs are having a discussion as to whether it's even safe to go around all their embassies to wish them Merry Christmas. A lot of bad feeling has been generated unnecessarily.

We need clarity. Please give us a single set of written rules so that we all have the opportunity to follow them.

Thanks.

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Nuroblav
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Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nuroblav » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:43 am

This reminds me of when I ran a poll tournament. I had been reminding regions regularly to take part in the tournament if they wanted to - just a friendly reminder. One region supressed my post and warned me not to doit again as it was getting spammy, so I followed that and didn't post tournament reminders there anymore.

Now looking back at it, it was getting a bit spammy; I can see why mods would want to take care of this. Then again, it's a discussion thread so here's my thoughts:

I've had a look at the OSRS spam section and have tried to see if there is anything this would fall under. The closest that I can find is link spam (but this comes under forum spam). In my opinion, if it becomes too spammy (e.g. every minute or so) then it would fall under spam. But at a certain point I think it's fine. Then again, this is just my opinion and I know as much about Moderation than a plant knows about quantum physics. Just putting it out there - thanks for hearing me out :)
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:00 am

Nuroblav wrote:This reminds me of when I ran a poll tournament. I had been reminding regions regularly to take part in the tournament if they wanted to - just a friendly reminder. One region supressed my post and warned me not to doit again as it was getting spammy, so I followed that and didn't post tournament reminders there anymore.

Now looking back at it, it was getting a bit spammy; I can see why mods would want to take care of this. Then again, it's a discussion thread so here's my thoughts:

I've had a look at the OSRS spam section and have tried to see if there is anything this would fall under. The closest that I can find is link spam (but this comes under forum spam). In my opinion, if it becomes too spammy (e.g. every minute or so) then it would fall under spam. But at a certain point I think it's fine. Then again, this is just my opinion and I know as much about Moderation than a plant knows about quantum physics. Just putting it out there - thanks for hearing me out :)

Your response to the guy saying it was spammy was the right one. If the mods would accept that in general, people are big boys and girls who can listen when other people tell them not to post something, we wouldn't have this situation.
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The JELLEAIN Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:42 am

Science the mods cant handle the sheer volume of random coming at them anyways, why not make so regions can selectively filter/block things in a pan automated basis, like say polls from a certain place ?

Wouldn’t that solve many issues ?
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Lamoni
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lamoni » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:48 am

That would require a coding change, and our Admins have enough coding changes on their plates as it is.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:10 am

Lamoni wrote:That would require a coding change, and our Admins have enough coding changes on their plates as it is.

It's effectively a thing. Regions can make it so only ROs from embassy regions can post on the rmb. You know, because regional updates are what the embassy rmb sharing feature is for?
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Lamoni
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lamoni » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:44 am

That doesn't prevent this sort of thing, it just makes it so that only people in regions with which you have an embassy can do it. There is no guarantee whatsoever that someone can't just move a puppet into one or more of your embassy regions, and continue to spam you. There are also some really lazy ROs out there who either don't want to lift a finger, or don't have the schedule to do so on a regular basis. Oh, and mind your tone, it doesn't help you when addressing moderation.
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