[R] Bad faith posting

[Jolthig]

Literally trolling, flaming, flamebaiting, harassment, and just outright bad faith posting by this individual:

Slightly lengthy post. Full version spoilered. TL;DR version at the bottom. This post is addressed primarily toward Muslim NSGers on this thread.

The relative anonymity of NationStates is the only reason I'm able to even write this. If the government found out how I truly feel about Islam, I would almost certainly be arrested and jailed for up to 11 years for "insulting Islam", which is why I feel strongly enough to write this in the first place. That, and the recent jailing of a Chinese Christian woman in Indonesia for two years for "insulting Islam" for complaining about the call to prayer being too loud, which led to riots and Buddhist temples being set alight by Islamist extremists.

My sympathy for Muslims and my erstwhile deference to Islam has completely run out. They will no longer continue to bite the hand that has fed them all these years, namely my hand. I'm in a really dark place right now with respect to Islam and Muslims, and I'm trying very hard to restrain myself and avoid trolling this thread. When you persecute someone for who they are and what they believe, expect them to hate you, resent you and plot revenge against you in response. It's human nature, and it's karma. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

When I first started to question Islam's supposedly peaceful nature back in late 2014/early 2015 after years of state-sanctioned discrimination of my people and threats of incarceration and violence at the hands of a Malay-Muslim majority and particularly in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror attacks against freedom of expression, I read the Qur'an (Muhammad Muhsin Khan English translation for Amazon Kindle, which contains explanations and elaborations of verses in brackets by the translator himself) and learned much of what I now know about Islam and Mohammed from Wikipedia as well as TheReligionOfPeace.com and AnsweringMuslims.com, both of which I have to admit are run by Christian apologists. I'm an atheist.

The picture I have of Mohammed, if he even existed to begin with, is that of a self-interested bloodthirsty pedophile warlord who eventually got what he deserved in the end, and that his alleged actions and behavior in life are the reason most Muslims in the Muslim world, while not necessarily violent, are generally intolerant of criticism and dissent, adhere to customs that would be deemed medieval and barbaric in the West, and are the reason why Islamic extremism of the Saudi kind has such an easy time taking hold in my country and elsewhere.

I believe that the holy texts themselves are to blame for failing to uphold 21st century morals, and that if Islam is to be viewed as anything less than a medieval, fascist, imperialist ideology, then Muslims must acknowledge that the Qur'an and hadiths are far from infallible and inerrant, that the Islamic holy texts were written by fallible human beings and that certain verses and hadiths frequently invoked by violent Islamists and "non-violent" fundamentalists to justify violence, rape, slavery and pedophilia must be rejected as "un-Islamic", as Christians have done over the past 300 years or so with the Bible, with modernity being the end-result.

If Christians can grow tired of centuries of sectarian violence, why can't Muslims? If ordinary Muslims fail to acknowledge that their religion isn't perfect and Islam isn't reformed to be more peaceful and tolerant, then I fear an all-out war on Islam may be inevitable in the future, and I would personally love to see that religion go extinct, for my sake, for my family's sake, and for everyone else's sake. If ordinary Muslims prefer to dig their heels in and label their critics as racists and Islamophobic bigots for hurting their religious feelings, then non-Muslims are going to have to adopt a no-nonsense approach and tell Muslims to get their shit together, or else. There should be no political correctness, zero tolerance for those radical Muslims who would cynically play the victim card to earn sympathy that is undeserved in order to push an Islamist agenda and for those leftists in the West who would give them a free hand to do so in the name of "tolerance and diversity", thereby enabling the destruction of their own societies.

Non-Muslim minorities in the Muslim world have every right to defend themselves and retaliate against Muslim aggression, as the Jews of Israel have done successfully and repeatedly. If Muslims insist on waging war on us and our infidel way of life and expect us to defer to them and their unquestionably superior faith at all times or else, then it is only fair that we respond in kind and wage war on their repressive religion and ideology until or unless they back down and start treating non-Muslims with genuine and heartfelt respect and dignity, or witness the end of Islam as a social and political force to be reckoned with.

Enough is enough. I will never accept endless dhimmitude and humiliation at the hands of an intolerant Muslim majority and live in constant fear for the rest of my life. We are not inferior to Muslims, no matter how much they try to "remind" us otherwise, if you catch my drift.

But I'd like to turn this back to NSG and particularly "moderate" Muslim NSGers. Are you prepared to acknowledge that your religion is fundamentally flawed and at fault for much of what is wrong in the Muslim world today and that the extremists who perpetrate terror attacks in the name of Islam are also devout Muslims who are inspired by the same texts that inspire you? Are you willing to acknowledge that Islam is directly responsible for the persecution of non-Muslim minorities like me? Are you prepared to acknowledge that your holy texts were written by humans and are therefore fallible, and that certain verses and hadiths must be explicitly rejected as "un-Islamic" if Islam is to join the 21st century? If so, what do you intend to do about it, because time is not something we have?

Or are you going to bury your heads in the sand while Islamic religious intolerance and violence continue to increase across the Muslim world and we non-Muslims are forced to either flee or resort to violence to defend ourselves? Because if Muslims in my country commit pogroms against my people for "insulting Islam", the blood will be on your hands and I will hold you, specifically those of you who would honestly or dishonestly engage in denial and apologetics, responsible for allowing this to happen, together with the regressive Western Left with its collective guilt complex that precludes any criticism of Islam.

If you're not going to fix your religion and stand up for women, LGBT people, atheists and non-Muslim minorities across the Muslim world because these fundamentalists and terrorists are "not real Muslims" and anyone who claims otherwise is a "racist Islamophobic bigot", don't expect me to stand up for you should anything untoward happen to you at the hands of non-Muslims thirsting for revenge. Don't expect me to shed a single tear for Muslims any longer. Not for Christchurch. Not for the Rohingya. Not for the Uighurs. Not for Muslim minorities in the West and elsewhere. Not for Muslim migrants and refugees.

Certainly not for the Palestinians, who are among the least deserving of international sympathy and among the most deserving of international ridicule and censure. Not that I condone atrocities against the first four groups, but I have better things to do. I might be a little more sympathetic if Sunnis persecute and murder Shi'ites in the Middle East or vice versa because both the perpetrators and the victims are Muslims. I've always condemned Bashar al-Assad's atrocities and said things about him in anger that would be against the rules to repeat here, and the Syrian regime is backed by Russia and indirectly by China, both of which I have a huge problem with.

Anyway, please let me know if there is something about your religion that I'm missing, because I'm not seeing it.

TL;DR version:

My people have been persecuted by Muslims for generations and I'm in a really dark place right now with respect to Muslims and Islam. My past sympathy for Muslims has completely run out as a result. The Islam I have read about is anything but peaceful, and I have yet to be convinced otherwise. I believe that Islam is directly responsible for religiously inspired violence and intolerance across the Muslim world and the persecution of women, gays, atheists and non-Muslim minorities. I believe that the holy texts were written by humans and therefore Islam's teachings are fallible and that certain verses and hadiths are incompatible with 21st-century values. There can be no room for political correctness. If "moderate" Muslims refuse to acknowledge that their religion is part of the problem, then oppressed and subjugated non-Muslims will be forced to take matters into their own hands and fight back, and a war on Islam may be inevitable. What comes around goes around. If anything should happen to me or my family, these "moderate" Muslims will have blood on their hands and they should be ashamed of themselves. Islam is not a religion of peace. Change my mind. For more details, read the spoilered full version.

Also, another question for Muslim NSGers:

"Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud, jaish Mohammed sa yahud" is an antisemitic refrain regularly chanted at rallies calling for the destruction of Israel. Christian apologist David Wood has this to say about the phrase. I'd like to hear the Muslim response to this.

Ok, this is epic.

"Don't expect me to shed a single tear for Muslims any longer. Not for Christchurch. Not for the Rohingya. Not for the Uighurs. Not for Muslim minorities in the West and elsewhere. Not for Muslim migrants and refugees." - "wah wah my people are being killed". Respect is a two way street and if you don't care about genocide you can't expect people to care about it when it happens to you.

Exactly.

Also, re:Palestine, if you like apartheid then you can bug off. I get that you think you're some based and redpilled defender of your people but when you are actively upholding apartheid and expressing apathy towards the genocide of innocents then I don't deem you worthy of an intellectual response. I personally know people who have been attacked in Palestine for daring to walk down a street and other crimes.

There is no "apartheid" or "genocide" taking place in the West Bank and certainly not in Israel itself, and Gaza is de facto independent. Such claims are laughable. The Palestinians have used up all their chances. As far as I'm concerned, they don't deserve a state. As for the Rohingya and others, I just can't anymore. I'm sorry. It just feels like Muslims are hogging all the sympathy and manipulating gullible leftists into stifling all criticism, and I'm virtue-signaling my rights away. Like I said, I'm in a really dark place regarding Muslims and Islam, the details of which I can't go into without breaking the rules.

He did admit that he doesn't care if the rules are broken, so basically I took it as him intending to incite the Muslims in the thread against him.

[New Bremerton]

Seriously? Bad faith? I made it crystal clear I had no intention of breaking any of the rules here. I do care 100% about the rules, and I made especially sure not to break them in any way. All I did was express my personal feelings about Islam and Muslims, and all I was trying to do was reach out to Muslims on NSG who I thought might be able to change my mind about Islam, but the very person (Jolthig) whom I believed would be willing to have a good faith discussion about this issue is reporting me for "harassment", being a peaceful persecuted Ahmadi Muslim and all. I am guilty of none of what he's accusing me of. I don't see how the highlighted bits constitute trolling or flamebaiting, although I will admit things were a little heated.

This is what I get for reaching out.

EDIT: I think I'm done with the IDT. The Muslim NSGers on the thread will not hear another peep from me.

[Jolthig]

Seriously? Bad faith? I made it crystal clear I had no intention of breaking any of the rules here. I do care 100% about the rules, and I made especially sure not to break them in any way. All I did was express my personal feelings about Islam and Muslims, and all I was trying to do was reach out to Muslims on NSG who I thought might be able to change my mind about Islam, but the very person (Jolthig) whom I believed would be willing to have a good faith discussion about this issue is reporting me for "harassment", being a peaceful persecuted Ahmadi Muslim and all. I am guilty of none of what he's accusing me of. I don't see how the highlighted bits constitute trolling or flamebaiting, although I will admit things were a little heated.

This is what I get for reaching out.

EDIT: I think I'm done with the IDT. The Muslim NSGers on the thread will not hear another peep from me.

Okay, I'll admit I was false to say that you didn't care for the rules. Probably a misreading of a part of your post that said, "Details of which I can't go into without breaking the rules". But when you say, you lose sympathy for certain victims of genocide, and go to extreme lengths, do expect a different response from me.

Feel free to add me to your ignore, man. Peace.

[New Bremerton]

Forgot how to link to individual posts, but Negarakita maliciously edited my post as follows in red (in the spoilered section):

Slightly lengthy post. Full version spoilered. TL;DR version at the bottom. This post is addressed primarily toward Muslim NSGers on this thread.

The relative anonymity of NationStates is the only reason I'm able to even write this. If the government found out how I truly feel about Islam, I would almost certainly be arrested and jailed for up to 11 years for "insulting Islam", which is why I feel strongly enough to write this in the first place. That, and the recent jailing of a Chinese Christian woman in Indonesia for two years for "insulting Islam" for complaining about the call to prayer being too loud, which led to riots and Buddhist temples being set alight by Islamist extremists.

My sympathy for Muslims and my erstwhile deference to Islam has completely run out. They will no longer continue to bite the hand that has fed them all these years, namely my hand. I'm in a really dark place right now with respect to Islam and Muslims, and I'm trying very hard to restrain myself and avoid trolling this thread. When you persecute someone for who they are and what they believe, expect them to hate you, resent you and plot revenge against you in response. It's human nature, and it's karma. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

When I first started to question Islam's supposedly peaceful nature back in late 2014/early 2015 after years of state-sanctioned discrimination of my people and threats of incarceration and violence at the hands of a Malay-Muslim majority and particularly in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror attacks against freedom of expression, I read the Qur'an (Muhammad Muhsin Khan English translation for Amazon Kindle, which contains explanations and elaborations of verses in brackets by the translator himself) and learned much of what I now know about Islam and Mohammed from Wikipedia as well as TheReligionOfPeace.com and AnsweringMuslims.com, both of which I have to admit are run by Christian apologists. I'm an atheist.

The picture I have of Mohammed, if he even existed to begin with, is that of a self-interested bloodthirsty pedophile warlord who eventually got what he deserved in the end, and that his alleged actions and behavior in life are the reason most Muslims in the Muslim world, while not necessarily violent, are generally intolerant of criticism and dissent, adhere to customs that would be deemed medieval and barbaric in the West, and are the reason why Islamic extremism of the Saudi kind has such an easy time taking hold in my country and elsewhere.

I believe that the holy texts themselves are to blame for failing to uphold 21st century morals, and that if Islam is to be viewed as anything less than a medieval, fascist, imperialist ideology, then Muslims must acknowledge that the Qur'an and hadiths are far from infallible and inerrant, that the Islamic holy texts were written by fallible human beings and that certain verses and hadiths frequently invoked by violent Islamists and "non-violent" fundamentalists to justify violence, rape, slavery and pedophilia must be rejected as "un-Islamic", as Christians have done over the past 300 years or so with the Bible, with modernity being the end-result.

If Christians can grow tired of centuries of sectarian violence, why can't Muslims? If ordinary Muslims fail to acknowledge that their religion isn't perfect and Islam isn't reformed to be more peaceful and tolerant, then I fear an all-out war on Islam may be inevitable in the future, and I would personally love to see that religion go extinct, for my sake, for my family's sake, and for everyone else's sake. If ordinary Muslims prefer to dig their heels in and label their critics as racists and Islamophobic bigots for hurting their religious feelings, then non-Muslims are going to have to adopt a no-nonsense approach and tell Muslims to get their shit together, or else. There should be no political correctness, zero tolerance for those radical Muslims who would cynically play the victim card to earn sympathy that is undeserved in order to push an Islamist agenda and for those leftists in the West who would give them a free hand to do so in the name of "tolerance and diversity", thereby enabling the destruction of their own societies.

Non-Muslim minorities in the Muslim world have every right to defend themselves and retaliate against Muslim aggression, as the Jews of The illegal state of The illegal state of Israel have done successfully and repeatedly. If Muslims insist on waging war on us and our infidel way of life and expect us to defer to them and their unquestionably superior faith at all times or else, then it is only fair that we respond in kind and wage war on their repressive religion and ideology until or unless they back down and start treating non-Muslims with genuine and heartfelt respect and dignity, or witness the end of Islam as a social and political force to be reckoned with.

Enough is enough. I will never accept endless dhimmitude and humiliation at the hands of an intolerant Muslim majority and live in constant fear for the rest of my life. We are not inferior to Muslims, no matter how much they try to "remind" us otherwise, if you catch my drift.

But I'd like to turn this back to NSG and particularly "moderate" Muslim NSGers. Are you prepared to acknowledge that your religion is fundamentally flawed and at fault for much of what is wrong in the Muslim world today and that the extremists who perpetrate terror attacks in the name of Islam are also devout Muslims who are inspired by the same texts that inspire you? Are you willing to acknowledge that Islam is directly responsible for the persecution of non-Muslim minorities like me? Are you prepared to acknowledge that your holy texts were written by humans and are therefore fallible, and that certain verses and hadiths must be explicitly rejected as "un-Islamic" if Islam is to join the 21st century? If so, what do you intend to do about it, because time is not something we have?

Or are you going to bury your heads in the sand while Islamic religious intolerance and violence continue to increase across the Muslim world and we non-Muslims are forced to either flee or resort to violence to defend ourselves? Because if Muslims in my country commit pogroms against my people for "insulting Islam", the blood will be on your hands and I will hold you, specifically those of you who would honestly or dishonestly engage in denial and apologetics, responsible for allowing this to happen, together with the regressive Western Left with its collective guilt complex that precludes any criticism of Islam.

If you're not going to fix your religion and stand up for women, LGBT people, atheists and non-Muslim minorities across the Muslim world because these fundamentalists and terrorists are "not real Muslims" and anyone who claims otherwise is a "racist Islamophobic bigot", don't expect me to stand up for you should anything untoward happen to you at the hands of non-Muslims thirsting for revenge. Don't expect me to shed a single tear for Muslims any longer. Not for Christchurch. Not for the Rohingya. Not for the Uighurs. Not for Muslim minorities in the West and elsewhere. Not for Muslim migrants and refugees.

Certainly not for the Palestinians, who are among the least deserving of international sympathy and among the most deserving of international ridicule and censure. Not that I condone atrocities against the first four groups, but I have better things to do. I might be a little more sympathetic if Sunnis persecute and murder Shi'ites in the Middle East or vice versa because both the perpetrators and the victims are Muslims. I've always condemned Bashar al-Assad's atrocities and said things about him in anger that would be against the rules to repeat here, and the Syrian regime is backed by Russia and indirectly by China, both of which I have a huge problem with.

Anyway, please let me know if there is something about your religion that I'm missing, because I'm not seeing it.

TL;DR version:

My people have been persecuted by Muslims for generations and I'm in a really dark place right now with respect to Muslims and Islam. My past sympathy for Muslims has completely run out as a result. The Islam I have read about is anything but peaceful, and I have yet to be convinced otherwise. I believe that Islam is directly responsible for religiously inspired violence and intolerance across the Muslim world and the persecution of women, gays, atheists and non-Muslim minorities. I believe that the holy texts were written by humans and therefore Islam's teachings are fallible and that certain verses and hadiths are incompatible with 21st-century values. There can be no room for political correctness. If "moderate" Muslims refuse to acknowledge that their religion is part of the problem, then oppressed and subjugated non-Muslims will be forced to take matters into their own hands and fight back, and a war on Islam may be inevitable. What comes around goes around. If anything should happen to me or my family, these "moderate" Muslims will have blood on their hands and they should be ashamed of themselves. Islam is not a religion of peace. Change my mind. For more details, read the spoilered full version.

Also, another question for Muslim NSGers:

"Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud, jaish Mohammed sa yahud" is an antisemitic refrain regularly chanted at rallies calling for the destruction of The illegal state of The illegal state of Israel. Christian apologist David Wood has this to say about the phrase. I'd like to hear the Muslim response to this.

Ok, this is epic.

"Don't expect me to shed a single tear for Muslims any longer. Not for Christchurch. Not for the Rohingya. Not for the Uighurs. Not for Muslim minorities in the West and elsewhere. Not for Muslim migrants and refugees." - "wah wah my people are being killed". Respect is a two way street and if you don't care about genocide you can't expect people to care about it when it happens to you.

Also, re:Palestine, if you like apartheid then you can bug off. I get that you think you're some based and redpilled defender of your people but when you are actively upholding apartheid and expressing apathy towards the genocide of innocents then I don't deem you worthy of an intellectual response. I personally know people who have been attacked in Palestine for daring to walk down a street and other crimes.

I never called Israel an "illegal" state.

Re: Jolthig: Peace to you too. I don't want to put you on ignore because you seem like a decent fellow. I wasn't expecting this from you, but all is forgiven. But this will be my first and last foray into the IDT. I took a risk expressing my opinion on Islam and Muslims in what I believed was the appropriate thread hoping to kick off a reasonable discussion and got burned. As for "gullible leftists", I was referring to the Western Left in Europe and America. The ones I was referring to as doing the manipulating would be the tiny minority of radical Islamists, not "Muslims". I kind of misspoke there. That last post was rushed to submission just before dinner.

[Farnhamia]

I warned that quote editing guy. I'm going to call New Bremerton's post not actionable. The opinions expressed are strong but I didn't see any language in there that could be seen as breaking the rules.

[New Bremerton]

I warned that quote editing guy. I'm going to call New Bremerton's post not actionable. The opinions expressed are strong but I didn't see any language in there that could be seen as breaking the rules.

Thank you. I'll be even more careful anyway. Have some Easter cookies.

[Jolthig]

I warned that quote editing guy. I'm going to call New Bremerton's post not actionable. The opinions expressed are strong but I didn't see any language in there that could be seen as breaking the rules.

Very well. I also apologized to NB. Have a good day everyone!

[Farnhamia]

I warned that quote editing guy. I'm going to call New Bremerton's post not actionable. The opinions expressed are strong but I didn't see any language in there that could be seen as breaking the rules.

Thank you. I'll be even more careful anyway. Have some Easter cookies.

Thanks, you and Jolthig both. I'll pass on the cookies, unless you want a couple of pounds of jelly beans.