[QUESTION] Calling people Nazis

[Jocospor]

It is not our job to rule on whether you are a Nazi or not. If someone calls you a Nazi and we rule it "not actionable," that does not mean they are right. It just means the post did not break site rules.

OOC: I don't think anyone's asking you to do that. If anything, I think we're hoping to reach some sort of mutual understanding. Calling someone a Nazi when they're not is, I think, downright offensive. I'm hoping we can reach some sort of compromise to stop people applying the term when they've been repeatedly told the subject/s is/are not Nazi/s. I also refer you to Shrewllamaland's post, in which he cities justified concerns of double standards.

And I need you to consider that I actually know a lot about the history of Europe in general, including the crimes of the Nazis (having visited a number of concentration camps and read widely on the subject), so that has nothing to do with why I said that I wouldn't think that calling a Nazi a Nazi is trolling. And it should also be made known that I have never called you a Nazi.

If you know as much as you claim, you shouldn't be throwing the word around so casually. You have never directly called me a Nazi but it's been very strongly implied.

In fact, I don't believe you. I don't think you know anything about European history. I don't think you've ever been to a concentration camp. I doubt you've read one book on Nazism. I don't even think you could spell Reichstag if someone asked you to.

People can post many things that are wrong, but still allowed.

^ I think I just proved how counterproductive your stance on the matter is, USS Monitor.

[Ethel mermania]

It is not our job to rule on whether you are a Nazi or not. If someone calls you a Nazi and we rule it "not actionable," that does not mean they are right. It just means the post did not break site rules.

OOC: I don't think anyone's asking you to do that. If anything, I think we're hoping to reach some sort of mutual understanding. Calling someone a Nazi when they're not is, I think, downright offensive. I'm hoping we can reach some sort of compromise to stop people applying the term when they've been repeatedly told the subject/s is/are not Nazi/s. I also refer you to Shrewllamaland's post, in which he cities justified concerns of double standards.

And I need you to consider that I actually know a lot about the history of Europe in general, including the crimes of the Nazis (having visited a number of concentration camps and read widely on the subject), so that has nothing to do with why I said that I wouldn't think that calling a Nazi a Nazi is trolling. And it should also be made known that I have never called you a Nazi.

If you know as much as you claim, you shouldn't be throwing the word around so casually. You have never directly called me a Nazi but it's been very strongly implied.

In fact, I don't believe you. I don't think you know anything about European history. I don't think you've ever been to a concentration camp. I doubt you've read one book on Nazism. I don't even think you could spell Reichstag if someone asked you to.

People can post many things that are wrong, but still allowed.

^ I think I just proved how counterproductive your stance on the matter is, USS Monitor.

Monitor has a pretty good understanding of the antecedents, and processes of how the nazis came to power, who they were, and what they did, ask her about the strasserities some time.

Her arguement is not coming from ignorance. Her argument is coming from how the site perceives itself.

[Caracasus]

Seeing as this is an open question and I've been involved in a few of these discussions in the past.

There are some reasonably good reasons why fascism is not really tolerated by the community as a whole and frankly there's no argument against that which is not based on whataboutery in an attempt to legitimize fascism. It's a toxic ideology and it's safe to say that the community as a whole has voted frequently to ostracise them.

The problem with some sort of blanket ban on calling people fascists or nazis is that fascists and nazis lie all the time. Supporters of other political ideologies tend to argue in good faith. A socialist, a libertarian, a conservative or a liberal for instance isn't likely to lie about it. Fascists on the other hand almost always argue in bad faith and present themselves as something else. This is fairly well documented and is probably not that surprising given the ideology requires the manipulation and deciet of the masses by an autocratic ruler. That means that people kind of have to apply the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..' test here. If you don't want to be called a fascist, then don't associate with fascists or promote fascism. Plenty of people RP fascist nations with strong disclaimers, which the CoCD has never actually provided. Don't blame us if you get called fascists, blame the fascists for arguing so often in bad faith.

Nationstates already welcomes fascists. You are allowed to be a fascist on this site and express what views you can without breaking the rules. Calling for a ban on calling people nazis or fascists does nothing but sheild their toxic ideology from criticism and give them a mod sanctioned safe space.

It's also very much worth noting that mods do step in when accusations of fascism are also threadjacking or flaming. As noted with the last Security Council resolution which saw one player recieve a ban.

[Prydania]

I see I’ve been quoted quite a few times.

Joco, I associated you and your region with Nazism because you both stated that you find Nazi ideals to be a good thing and you have embassies with regions that contain real, actual Nazis.

From where I’m standing? Nothing I’ve said about you or your region is out of bounds, given your statements and your region’s associations.

If you want to shed the Nazi label? Apologize for defending Nazi ideology and close your embassies with Nazi regions.

Though I'm not, if I was a Jew of Polish decent, how do you think I would react at being called a Nazi?

I am a Jew of Polish decent. And that's why I take Nazism very seriously. It's not a LARP for me, it's a very real thing that killed very real people in my family. It's why I take your region's associations and your own statements as seriously as I do.

[The New California Republic]

And I need you to consider that I actually know a lot about the history of Europe in general, including the crimes of the Nazis (having visited a number of concentration camps and read widely on the subject), so that has nothing to do with why I said that I wouldn't think that calling a Nazi a Nazi is trolling. And it should also be made known that I have never called you a Nazi.

If you know as much as you claim, you shouldn't be throwing the word around so casually. You have never directly called me a Nazi but it's been very strongly implied.

When? When did I strongly imply that you were a Nazi? When?

---

In fact, I don't believe you. I don't think you know anything about European history.

I was born in Europe, I live in Europe, I have travelled widely around Europe, and I have read widely on European history and visited a large number of historical sites around Europe. But believe whatever you like.

---

I don't think you've ever been to a concentration camp.

I have been to Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen, and Theresienstadt.

---

I doubt you've read one book on Nazism.

I doubt it too, because I know that I have read multiple books on the subject, not just one.

---

I don't even think you could spell Reichstag if someone asked you to.

And now you are just being nasty. Funny how I can spell Sachsenhausen and Theresienstadt, but apparently not Reichstag(!)

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I see I’ve been quoted quite a few times.

Joco, I associated you and your region with Nazism because you both stated that you find Nazi ideals to be a good thing and you have embassies with regions that contain real, actual Nazis.

From where I’m standing? Nothing I’ve said about you or your region is out of bounds, given your statements and your region’s associations.

If you want to shed the Nazi label? Apologize for defending Nazi ideology and close your embassies with Nazi regions.

Though I'm not, if I was a Jew of Polish decent, how do you think I would react at being called a Nazi?

I am a Jew of Polish decent. And that's why I take Nazism very seriously. It's not a LARP for me, it's a very real thing that killed very real people in my family. It's why I take your region's associations and your own statements as seriously as I do.

It should be pointed out that even in forums where OOC and IC boundaries are usually very obvious, Jocospor makes it very clear when he's speaking OOC and when he's speaking IC. The post that is regularly quoted, in my opinion, is obviously an IC one: not only does he generally mark everything that is OOC as such, he also signed off with a leader name.

[Jocospor]

Seeing as this is an open question and I've been involved in a few of these discussions in the past.

There are some reasonably good reasons why fascism is not really tolerated by the community as a whole and frankly there's no argument against that which is not based on whataboutery in an attempt to legitimize fascism. It's a toxic ideology and it's safe to say that the community as a whole has voted frequently to ostracise them.

The problem with some sort of blanket ban on calling people fascists or nazis is that fascists and nazis lie all the time. Supporters of other political ideologies tend to argue in good faith. A socialist, a libertarian, a conservative or a liberal for instance isn't likely to lie about it. Fascists on the other hand almost always argue in bad faith and present themselves as something else. This is fairly well documented and is probably not that surprising given the ideology requires the manipulation and deciet of the masses by an autocratic ruler. That means that people kind of have to apply the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..' test here. If you don't want to be called a fascist, then don't associate with fascists or promote fascism. Plenty of people RP fascist nations with strong disclaimers, which the CoCD has never actually provided. Don't blame us if you get called fascists, blame the fascists for arguing so often in bad faith.

Nationstates already welcomes fascists. You are allowed to be a fascist on this site and express what views you can without breaking the rules. Calling for a ban on calling people nazis or fascists does nothing but sheild their toxic ideology from criticism and give them a mod sanctioned safe space.

It's also very much worth noting that mods do step in when accusations of fascism are also threadjacking or flaming. As noted with the last Security Council resolution which saw one player receive a ban.

OOC: Caracasus, I do respect your opinion on this. It's seemingly quite objective. This issue at hand, though, is one that you've skirted around. We (the government and nations of the Confederation) have repeatedly
offered so, so many disclaimers on the forums to say "We are not Nazis." What's the difference between a dispatch and a forum thread? All we have is our word - surely this thread is evidence enough that we are not Nazis. For what it's worth, I've never encountered a nation in the Confederation that's caused me to think its player is a Nazi.

I think your second paragraph is probably quite true. Then, let me put this to you. I put it to you that we are not Nazis, and we have said many times, and so I'm asking you and the community not to infer that we - specifically, myself and my government (because, yes, I can't 100% speak for my region. Neither can other regional founders, realistically) - that we are Nazis. Is this agreeable to you?

[Prydania]

It should be pointed out that even in forums where OOC and IC boundaries are usually very obvious, Jocospor makes it very clear when he's speaking OOC and when he's speaking IC. The post that is regularly quoted, in my opinion, is obviously an IC one: not only does he generally mark everything that is OOC as such, he also signed off with a leader name.

This is undercut by the fact that the CoCD has embassies with regions that are not just simply RPing as Nazis.
You can’t associate with OOC Nazis, make posts where you extole Nazi ideology, and then cry about it when people go “hey you might be a Nazi.”

In this case? Joco’s path is very clear if he wants to convince people he and his region aren’t Nazis. Close the embassies with Nazi regions and apologize for stating Nazi ideology was a good thing. Hell, that’s just my personal metric. The vast majority of NS would probably accept it if he just did the former and skipped the latter.

If he’s not willing to do that though? He’s going to be called out for his association with real
life OOC Nazis who use this site/play this game.

...have repeatedly offered so, so many disclaimers on the forums to say "We are not Nazis." What's the difference between a dispatch and a forum thread? All we have is our word - surely this thread is evidence enough that we are not Nazis. For what it's worth, I've never encountered a nation in the Confederation that's caused me to think its player is a Nazi.

Well I'll say again what I said above. To you, directly.
Close your embassies with Nazi regions. Apologize for defending Nazi ideology. Again, most people would probably accept it if you just did the first one.

You say all you have is your word. And that isn't true. A word, anyone's word, isn't worth much of anything without actions to back it up. You have the ability to put actions behind your words. Ditch your real life OOC Nazi associates and move on from them. Make it clear that however you play this game IC you will not tolerate Nazism in any form. Take action and most people, myself included, will be willing to take you at your word.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I really would recommend CoCD close their embassy with Nazi Europa though, I've seen some pretty awful things from them. The difference with all the other regions that people call Fascists and Nazi Europa is that Nazi Europa have done enough to convince me they are real fascists and Nazis; the others have not.

[Caracasus]

Seeing as this is an open question and I've been involved in a few of these discussions in the past.

There are some reasonably good reasons why fascism is not really tolerated by the community as a whole and frankly there's no argument against that which is not based on whataboutery in an attempt to legitimize fascism. It's a toxic ideology and it's safe to say that the community as a whole has voted frequently to ostracise them.

The problem with some sort of blanket ban on calling people fascists or nazis is that fascists and nazis lie all the time. Supporters of other political ideologies tend to argue in good faith. A socialist, a libertarian, a conservative or a liberal for instance isn't likely to lie about it. Fascists on the other hand almost always argue in bad faith and present themselves as something else. This is fairly well documented and is probably not that surprising given the ideology requires the manipulation and deciet of the masses by an autocratic ruler. That means that people kind of have to apply the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..' test here. If you don't want to be called a fascist, then don't associate with fascists or promote fascism. Plenty of people RP fascist nations with strong disclaimers, which the CoCD has never actually provided. Don't blame us if you get called fascists, blame the fascists for arguing so often in bad faith.

Nationstates already welcomes fascists. You are allowed to be a fascist on this site and express what views you can without breaking the rules. Calling for a ban on calling people nazis or fascists does nothing but sheild their toxic ideology from criticism and give them a mod sanctioned safe space.

It's also very much worth noting that mods do step in when accusations of fascism are also threadjacking or flaming. As noted with the last Security Council resolution which saw one player receive a ban.

OOC: Caracasus, I do respect your opinion on this. It's seemingly quite objective. This issue at hand, though, is one that you've skirted around. We (the government and nations of the Confederation) have repeatedly
offered so, so many disclaimers on the forums to say "We are not Nazis." What's the difference between a dispatch and a forum thread? All we have is our word - surely this thread is evidence enough that we are not Nazis. For what it's worth, I've never encountered a nation in the Confederation that's caused me to think its player is a Nazi.

I think your second paragraph is probably quite true. Then, let me put this to you. I put it to you that we are not Nazis, and we have said many times, and so I'm asking you and the community not to infer that we - specifically, myself and my government (because, yes, I can't 100% speak for my region. Neither can other regional founders, realistically) - that we are Nazis. Is this agreeable to you?

I don't think anyone would reasonably expect you to ensure with 100 per cent certainty that you have no nazis in your region. Repairing your reputation will probably take some time, and I'd suggest that you do the following:

Close embassies with actual fascist regions like Nazi Europa.

Make it clear either on your world factbook entry or in your rmb posting rules (preferably both) that actual OOC support and encouragement of fascism isn't tolerated.

If you are keen to ensure your reputation is repaired, I would also keep a close eye on your discord channel too.

That would be my advice.

[The New California Republic]

I don't think anyone would reasonably expect you to ensure with 100 per cent certainty that you have no nazis in your region. Repairing your reputation will probably take some time, and I'd suggest that you do the following:

Close embassies with actual fascist regions like Nazi Europa.

CoCD also has embassies with the following fascist regions: The Union of the Axis Powers, The Iron Order, The Iron Confederacy, The Coalition of Fascist Nations, Order Of The Black Eagle, The Greater Nazi Empire, United Fascist Federation, The New Old Fascist Party, The Reich, and The Holy Reich of Greater Germania.

Yeah, close those embassies if you don't want some other people to use the duck test on you.

---

Also, J, you haven't answered my question yet:

You have never directly called me a Nazi but it's been very strongly implied.

When? When did I strongly imply that you were a Nazi? When?

[Jocospor]

I don't think anyone would reasonably expect you to ensure with 100 per cent certainty that you have no nazis in your region. Repairing your reputation will probably take some time, and I'd suggest that you do the following:

Close embassies with actual fascist regions like Nazi Europa.

Make it clear either on your world factbook entry or in your rmb posting rules (preferably both) that actual OOC support and encouragement of fascism isn't tolerated.

If you are keen to ensure your reputation is repaired, I would also keep a close eye on your discord channel too.

That would be my advice.

OOC: Hmmm. I'll have a think about this for a while. I don't want this to end up as "Jocospor cedes everything!" - might be bein' that I need a couple of apologies from a few parties, too. Again, Caracasus, thanks for your objectivity.

Also, J, you haven't answered my question yet:

When? When did I strongly imply that you were a Nazi? When?

Which is more than I can say for this guy. Sit down and stop being facetious, please. We've moved on.

[The New California Republic]

You have never directly called me a Nazi but it's been very strongly implied.

When? When did I strongly imply that you were a Nazi? When?

Which is more than I can say for this guy. Sit down and stop being facetious, please. We've moved on.

It's a genuine question. You said that I strongly implied that you were a Nazi. I asked you to show where I did that. If you cannot find it, then your statement was patently false.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Which is more than I can say for this guy. Sit down and stop being facetious, please. We've moved on.

It's a genuine question. You said that I strongly implied that you were a Nazi. I asked you to show where I did that. If you cannot find it, then your statement was patently false.

I don't see how calling a Nazi a Nazi is baiting or trolling...?

[The New California Republic]

It's a genuine question. You said that I strongly implied that you were a Nazi. I asked you to show where I did that. If you cannot find it, then your statement was patently false.

I don't see how calling a Nazi a Nazi is baiting or trolling...?

I didn't call Jocospor one or imply it. It was a response to this post:

So you are saying that deliberate attempts to bait and troll members who certain individuals have decided are Nazis is allowable, because they are Nazis?

[Jocospor]

I didn't call Jocospor one or imply it. It was a response to this post:

So you are saying that deliberate attempts to bait and troll members who certain individuals have decided are Nazis is allowable, because they are Nazis?

OOC: As I said, we've moved on. You're welcome to telegram me if there's additional issues.

[The New California Republic]

I didn't call Jocospor one or imply it. It was a response to this post:

OOC: As I said, we've moved on. You're welcome to telegram me if there's additional issues.

I don't see how we have moved on if you haven't either backed up your statement with evidence, or admitted that you were wrong, but alright.

[Caracasus]

I don't think anyone would reasonably expect you to ensure with 100 per cent certainty that you have no nazis in your region. Repairing your reputation will probably take some time, and I'd suggest that you do the following:

Close embassies with actual fascist regions like Nazi Europa.

Make it clear either on your world factbook entry or in your rmb posting rules (preferably both) that actual OOC support and encouragement of fascism isn't tolerated.

If you are keen to ensure your reputation is repaired, I would also keep a close eye on your discord channel too.

That would be my advice.

OOC: Hmmm. I'll have a think about this for a while. I don't want this to end up as "Jocospor cedes everything!" - might be bein' that I need a couple of apologies from a few parties, too. Again, Caracasus, thanks for your objectivity.

I don't think this is exactly a set of demands or some sort of contest or argument where you're ceding everything. If I'm to take what you are saying at face value, then we'd both like to see the same thing. Your region not being associated with actual support for fascism or being known as fascist sympathisers. These are simply my suggestions as how you could go about repairing your reputation. I honestly have no interest in 'winning' any debate on this really, my only interest in this thread stems from my desire to keep fascism off NS as much as possible.

I mean, your entire region's corrupt dictatorship theme isn't my cup of tea, but that's your call. Due to unfortunate events in the past, you might have a bit of a struggle clarifying your actual position on fascism and nazism and it might take a while to improve your reputation. I'm cautiously optimistic that you seem to be at least saying you plan to deal with this and I really hope it translates into action. You may find when implementing any changes that there were a few fascists in your region after all. Again, no one could reasonably expect any region to be nazi free, however we can reasonably expect regions to take steps to ensure that the toxic ideology itself isn't supported by the region.

[Jocospor]

OOC: As I said, we've moved on. You're welcome to telegram me if there's additional issues.

I don't see how we have moved on if you haven't either backed up your statement with evidence, or admitted that you were wrong, but alright.

OOC: Sweetie, if there's something to come out of this thread, it's unlikely to be me admitting I was wrong.

I am very seriously taking on board Caracasus' suggestions and will need time to discuss them with my peers and government. Caracasus, this isn't a debate at all, I'm really glad we agree on that. If anything, it's me registering a complaint - and there will be action. That said, I need some give as well from those who have left me and my region mates, put simply, quite worn out.

[The New California Republic]

I don't see how we have moved on if you haven't either backed up your statement with evidence, or admitted that you were wrong, but alright.

OOC: Sweetie, if there's something to come out of this thread, it's unlikely to be me admitting I was wrong.

Cool. Ignore it. Fine. Regardless, I'll take the silence as confirmation that you were wrong. And I'm not your "sweetie", so can that shit.

---

I mean, your entire region's corrupt dictatorship theme isn't my cup of tea, but that's your call. Due to unfortunate events in the past, you might have a bit of a struggle clarifying your actual position on fascism and nazism and it might take a while to improve your reputation. I'm cautiously optimistic that you seem to be at least saying you plan to deal with this and I really hope it translates into action. You may find when implementing any changes that there were a few fascists in your region after all. Again, no one could reasonably expect any region to be nazi free, however we can reasonably expect regions to take steps to ensure that the toxic ideology itself isn't supported by the region.

Closing the 11+ embassies that CoCD has with fascist regions would certainly be a significant gesture of good faith however, and would be noticed by others and taken into account.

[Caracasus]

OOC: Sweetie, if there's something to come out of this thread, it's unlikely to be me admitting I was wrong.

Cool. Ignore it. Fine. Regardless, I'll take the silence as confirmation that you were wrong. And I'm not your "sweetie", so can that shit.

---

I mean, your entire region's corrupt dictatorship theme isn't my cup of tea, but that's your call. Due to unfortunate events in the past, you might have a bit of a struggle clarifying your actual position on fascism and nazism and it might take a while to improve your reputation. I'm cautiously optimistic that you seem to be at least saying you plan to deal with this and I really hope it translates into action. You may find when implementing any changes that there were a few fascists in your region after all. Again, no one could reasonably expect any region to be nazi free, however we can reasonably expect regions to take steps to ensure that the toxic ideology itself isn't supported by the region.

Closing the 11+ embassies that CoCD has with fascist regions would certainly be a significant gesture of good faith however, and would be noticed by others and taken into account.

Agreed. I'd certainly consider a thorough investigation and removal of those embassies a very positive step. More so than anything else really, as an immediate action.

[Prydania]

Hell, I’ll take back every insinuation I made that Joco and the CoCD as a whole support Nazism if they go through with closing those embassies.

This isn’t a contest or something Joco needs to consider looking “weak” on. If he’s willing to distance the CoCD from actual Nazism? It’s only fair that his critics (myself included) acknowledge that.

[Syberis]

I don't think anyone would reasonably expect you to ensure with 100 per cent certainty that you have no nazis in your region. Repairing your reputation will probably take some time, and I'd suggest that you do the following:

Close embassies with actual fascist regions like Nazi Europa.

Make it clear either on your world factbook entry or in your rmb posting rules (preferably both) that actual OOC support and encouragement of fascism isn't tolerated.

If you are keen to ensure your reputation is repaired, I would also keep a close eye on your discord channel too.

That would be my advice.

OOC: Hmmm. I'll have a think about this for a while. I don't want this to end up as "Jocospor cedes everything!" - might be bein' that I need a couple of apologies from a few parties, too. Again, Caracasus, thanks for your objectivity.

Why would anyone apologize for accusing you of being what you present as? This isn't a negotiation at the end of war, this is basic PR advice. As long as your region has positive relationships with fascists and nazis, people are going to accuse you of being sympathetic to fascists and nazis at the very least, and a fascist or nazi outright as a matter of reasonable interpretation.

[Frisbeeteria]

OOC: As I said, we've moved on.

You don't get to blow off a legitimate question and claim it's been settled. Try answering the question.

OOC: Sweetie, if there's something to come out of this thread, it's unlikely to be me admitting I was wrong.

If there's something to come out of this thread based on this and similar comments, it's going to be a warning to you for flamebaiting.

If anything, it's me registering a complaint - and there will be action.

Perhaps not the action you're seeking.

[USS Monitor]

It is not our job to rule on whether you are a Nazi or not. If someone calls you a Nazi and we rule it "not actionable," that does not mean they are right. It just means the post did not break site rules.

OOC: I don't think anyone's asking you to do that. If anything, I think we're hoping to reach some sort of mutual understanding. Calling someone a Nazi when they're not

Let me stop you right there. You just asked us to make a ruling about who is not a Nazi. That is not our job.

People can post many things that are wrong, but still allowed.

^ I think I just proved how counterproductive your stance on the matter is, USS Monitor.

We're mods, not gods. We don't get to be the final authority on right or wrong, true or false. Just site rules.