[QUESTION] Calling people Nazis

[Jocospor]

OOC: I've been thinking about this and I wanted to raise the issue. Put simply, I myself (and other people in my region) really resent being called Nazis IRL. I'm not here to debate whether we are or not (though that in itself should be pretty evident). It's a pretty horrible way to describe someone and I was wondering if some sort of precedent could be set to limit people calling others Nazis/Commies/etc. OOC. I just feel that NationStates shouldn't necessarily turn a blind eye to attacks on other players' characters, and particularly to this extent.

[Audioslavia]

Hi there.

Nationstates doesn't turn a blind eye to attacks on other players. On the forums it's our policy to warn/ban users who hurl abuse at other users.

Hope that clears things up.

Audio.

[Jocospor]

Hi there.

Nationstates doesn't turn a blind eye to attacks on other players. On the forums it's our policy to warn/ban users who hurl abuse at other users.

Hope that clears things up.

Audio.

OOC: Hey, I'm sorry but no that doesn't clear things up (but I appreciate your quick reply!). It has been intimated and downright stated that people who I know are not Nazis (including myself) in fact are, and we take great offence at that. Here are some examples:

(EDIT: None of these were actioned as flaming, which ideally we'd like to see happen in the future.)

Face the facts jocospor, with your GP reputation as a nazi sympathizer this will never pass

Because blocking nazi's at every turn is what I do. clear and simple. major voting blocs exist for this very reason

I’ve seen your embassy list. IA is commendable for not wanting anything to do with the IRL Nazis you buddy up with. And no. I wouldn’t want to be part of a community that openly declares I’m a subhuman. Your community is a disgrace.

And since you don’t seem to get it? This is all OOC because SC threads are all OOC.

Considering that the CoCD are fascist sympathizers at best...

Haha a nazi is "Appalled that I.A. would seek to undermine ... the democratic process".

We're only using these quotes as instances where this has taken place. We absolutely don't expect these ones to be actioned.

[USS Monitor]

The problem with this is that some people ARE Nazis, Communists, etc. and pointing out someone's ideology is not an insult. Ideological labels are a bit fuzzy, so even if a person disagrees with the label, others might honestly believe it fits.

Particularly when people are presenting evidence for their opinion, it's more of a disagreement than a flame. People disagree with you about how close to actual original-flavor NSDAP Nazism you have to get before you are a Nazi.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

If I may respectfully disagree, Monitor, that's not what this is.
Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop; it's getting out of hand. 'nazi' is being used by some sections of gameplay, led by individuals who newer members may easily respect due to positions held/previously held, to smear and denigrate opponents in discussions.

But it goes further than this. People who associate with individuals who this subset of gameplay have coined Nazis are now, by reason of association, Nazi sympathisers. People who go into these regions and show that...hey, this is an rp region and maybe you might want to stop attacking them, are ignored. It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay, much in the same way that 'blacklisting' players without an explanation does.

[Syberis]

If I may respectfully disagree, Monitor, that's not what this is.
Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop; it's getting out of hand. 'nazi' is being used by some sections of gameplay, led by individuals who newer members may easily respect due to positions held/previously held, to smear and denigrate opponents in discussions.

But it goes further than this. People who associate with individuals who this subset of gameplay have coined Nazis are now, by reason of association, Nazi sympathisers. People who go into these regions and show that...hey, this is an rp region and maybe you might want to stop attacking them, are ignored. It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay, much in the same way that 'blacklisting' players without an explanation does.

A region tagged fascist and with embassies with Nazi Europa is going to draw some labels. The founder of said region is going to draw labels as well.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

If I may respectfully disagree, Monitor, that's not what this is.
Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop; it's getting out of hand. 'nazi' is being used by some sections of gameplay, led by individuals who newer members may easily respect due to positions held/previously held, to smear and denigrate opponents in discussions.

But it goes further than this. People who associate with individuals who this subset of gameplay have coined Nazis are now, by reason of association, Nazi sympathisers. People who go into these regions and show that...hey, this is an rp region and maybe you might want to stop attacking them, are ignored. It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay, much in the same way that 'blacklisting' players without an explanation does.

A region tagged fascist and with embassies with Nazi Europa is going to draw some labels. The founder of said region is going to draw labels as well.

In my opinion, there is a difference between the IC 'the proposers nation has a Nazi ideology.' and the very clearly ooc 'the proposer is a Nazi.'

[Frisbeeteria]

Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop

If someone associates with people who identify as RL Nazis; if someone permits such players to stay in the region and participate fully in the regional activities; if someone not only tolerates such activity but welcomes the players involved, then it is safe to call them "Nazi sympathizers". Stating "please don't call me Nazi" doesn't absolve you of your associations. If you walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and swim with other ducks ... you get called a duck. Or maybe a "duck sympathizer".

It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay

Having RL Nazi players contributes to the toxic environment too. We allow them to play because Max wants people to debate rather than the mods to censor. That doesn't mean we have to protect their toxic ideals and speech.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop

If someone associates with people who identify as RL Nazis; if someone permits such players to stay in the region and participate fully in the regional activities; if someone not only tolerates such activity but welcomes the players involved, then it is safe to call them "Nazi sympathizers". Stating "please don't call me Nazi" doesn't absolve you of your associations. If you walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and swim with other ducks ... you get called a duck. Or maybe a "duck sympathizer".

It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay

Having RL Nazi players contributes to the toxic environment too. We allow them to play because Max wants people to debate rather than the mods to censor. That doesn't mean we have to protect their toxic ideals and speech.

So you are saying that deliberate attempts to bait and troll members who certain individuals have decided are Nazis is allowable, because they are Nazis?

[Ethel mermania]

Certain people in gameplay and the WA call people Nazis despite the fact that they regularly tell those concerned that they're not Nazis, tell them that they don't wish to be called that and ask them to stop

If someone associates with people who identify as RL Nazis; if someone permits such players to stay in the region and participate fully in the regional activities; if someone not only tolerates such activity but welcomes the players involved, then it is safe to call them "Nazi sympathizers". Stating "please don't call me Nazi" doesn't absolve you of your associations. If you walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and swim with other ducks ... you get called a duck. Or maybe a "duck sympathizer".

It's contributing to the toxic environment in gameplay

Having RL Nazi players contributes to the toxic environment too. We allow them to play because Max wants people to debate rather than the mods to censor. That doesn't mean we have to protect their toxic ideals and speech.

Yet when a jew gets called a nazi, it's ok too. I mean it's fine if the site says we are not going to bang someone for calling them a nazi, but let's not pretend that all folks get called a nazi is because they somehow are, or any moderation distinction is made between the two.

[The New California Republic]

If someone associates with people who identify as RL Nazis; if someone permits such players to stay in the region and participate fully in the regional activities; if someone not only tolerates such activity but welcomes the players involved, then it is safe to call them "Nazi sympathizers". Stating "please don't call me Nazi" doesn't absolve you of your associations. If you walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and swim with other ducks ... you get called a duck. Or maybe a "duck sympathizer".

Having RL Nazi players contributes to the toxic environment too. We allow them to play because Max wants people to debate rather than the mods to censor. That doesn't mean we have to protect their toxic ideals and speech.

So you are saying that deliberate attempts to bait and troll members who certain individuals have decided are Nazis is allowable, because they are Nazis?

I don't see how calling a Nazi a Nazi is baiting or trolling...?

[USS Monitor]

We allow Nazis to use NS. It is not fair or consistent to tell other players that they are not allowed to discuss who they think is a Nazi if we allow Nazis to use the site. It is not the job of moderators to make official rulings about whether someone is a Nazi or not.

[The New California Republic]

We allow Nazis to use NS. It is not fair or consistent to tell other players that they are not allowed to discuss who they think is a Nazi if we allow Nazis to use the site. It is not the job of moderators to make official rulings about whether someone is a Nazi or not.

By the same token people get called Communists fairly frequently on the forums as well.

[Ethel mermania]

We allow Nazis to use NS. It is not fair or consistent to tell other players that they are not allowed to discuss who they think is a Nazi if we allow Nazis to use the site. It is not the job of moderators to make official rulings about whether someone is a Nazi or not.

By the same token people get called Communists fairly frequently on the forums as well.

There are plenty of folks on this site who are proud to be communists and be called that. However if that person had escaped from a gulag, they would quite reasonably want to RIP your thorax out for calling them communist.

[The New California Republic]

By the same token people get called Communists fairly frequently on the forums as well.

There are plenty of folks on this site who are proud to be communists and be called that.

And the same can be said of some Nazis too.

However if that person had escaped from a gulag, they would quite reasonably want to RIP your thorax out for calling them communist.

Sure. If the person knew that particular individual escaped from a gulag and called them a communist then it'd maybe be trolling. The same argument could be made in regards to knowing a person is a concentration camp survivor and calling them a Nazi.

[NERVUN]

By the same token people get called Communists fairly frequently on the forums as well.

There are plenty of folks on this site who are proud to be communists and be called that. However if that person had escaped from a gulag, they would quite reasonably want to RIP your thorax out for calling them communist.

That may be the case. Sadly, since we don't have a list of everyone's personal history we're not going to be able to go in and check every story. Nor are we going to get into the slippery slope of deciding that one player wants to be called a Trekkie while the other doesn't.

There are already rules in place to prevent wide-spread harassment (I.e. following a person from thread to thread calling him/her a nazi or a communist), and those can be applied. There's also the ignore function on the forum as well.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

There are plenty of folks on this site who are proud to be communists and be called that. However if that person had escaped from a gulag, they would quite reasonably want to RIP your thorax out for calling them communist.

That may be the case. Sadly, since we don't have a list of everyone's personal history we're not going to be able to go in and check every story. Nor are we going to get into the slippery slope of deciding that one player wants to be called a Trekkie while the other doesn't.

There are already rules in place to prevent wide-spread harassment (I.e. following a person from thread to thread calling him/her a nazi or a communist), and those can be applied. There's also the ignore function on the forum as well.

Gameplay harassment seems to have an odd application though. For example, this post
viewtopic.php?p=34954984&sid=aa626990a35d575c8b5551c8bcdb86bd#p34954984
telling people to avoid interactions with a particular group lest they be labelled a Nazi sympathiser, sounds like it should cover it as it's a blatent threat (if you talk to this man I will give you a bad name.) To take this to its logical conclusion, where does it end: if you rp with this person I'll spread your name around as someone to avoid? If you ban me from your thread I'll spread rhumours about you? This type of behaviour in gameplay, threatening people for merely associating with a person or persons influencial members have chosen to dislike, is becoming more and more widespread and, in my opinion, not just contributing to toxicity...the divisiveness and seriousness of accusations thrown about so freely are the primary cause of it.

[Jocospor]

The problem with this is that some people ARE Nazis, Communists, etc. and pointing out someone's ideology is not an insult. Ideological labels are a bit fuzzy, so even if a person disagrees with the label, others might honestly believe it fits.

Particularly when people are presenting evidence for their opinion, it's more of a disagreement than a flame. People disagree with you about how close to actual original-flavor NSDAP Nazism you have to get before you are a Nazi.

OOC: Hi USS Monitor. I'm sorry to say I find your logic absolutely flawed. If we simplify your argument, you're just giving the accusers the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't it be more sensible to give the defendants the benefit of the doubt, since the defendants know themselves better than anyone else does. The fact that we've repeatedly said "We're not IRL Nazis" (we're not even in-game Nazis) and people keep calling us such is particularly infuriating. For example, I am trying very hard not to flame him:

I don't see how calling a Nazi a Nazi is baiting or trolling...?

I need you to consider, New California Republic, why someone might be offended if you called them that. Perhaps if you knew a little more about Third Reich you wouldn't be so liberal with your labels.

There are already rules in place to prevent wide-spread harassment (I.e. following a person from thread to thread calling him/her a nazi or a communist), and those can be applied. There's also the ignore function on the forum as well.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, wide-spread harassment, which very possibly goes beyond me and my region. I don't believe that I should have to use the ignore function as the (for want of a better word) victim.

We allow Nazis to use NS. It is not fair or consistent to tell other players that they are not allowed to discuss who they think is a Nazi if we allow Nazis to use the site.

I've no issue with you allowing real Nazis to use NationStates, but how is it "fair or consistent" for players of the community to repeatedly hurl "You're a Nazi!!" at people who deny being so. After all, all we can do is deny it. Does our word count for anything?

Yet when a jew gets called a nazi, it's ok too. I mean it's fine if the site says we are not going to bang someone for calling them a nazi, but let's not pretend that all folks get called a nazi is because they somehow are, or any moderation distinction is made between the two.

This is a fairly good example of the severity of people throwing around terms they really shouldn't be. Though I'm not, if I was a Jew of Polish decent, how do you think I would react at being called a Nazi?

[NERVUN]

That may be the case. Sadly, since we don't have a list of everyone's personal history we're not going to be able to go in and check every story. Nor are we going to get into the slippery slope of deciding that one player wants to be called a Trekkie while the other doesn't.

There are already rules in place to prevent wide-spread harassment (I.e. following a person from thread to thread calling him/her a nazi or a communist), and those can be applied. There's also the ignore function on the forum as well.

Gameplay harassment seems to have an odd application though. For example, this post
viewtopic.php?p=34954984&sid=aa626990a35d575c8b5551c8bcdb86bd#p34954984
telling people to avoid interactions with a particular group lest they be labelled a Nazi sympathiser, sounds like it should cover it as it's a blatent threat (if you talk to this man I will give you a bad name.) To take this to its logical conclusion, where does it end: if you rp with this person I'll spread your name around as someone to avoid? If you ban me from your thread I'll spread rhumours about you? This type of behaviour in gameplay, threatening people for merely associating with a person or persons influencial members have chosen to dislike, is becoming more and more widespread and, in my opinion, not just contributing to toxicity...the divisiveness and seriousness of accusations thrown about so freely are the primary cause of it.

And what is the difference between saying "Don't rp with him, he's a nazi" and "Don't RP with him, he's a godmodder"?

Must we now protect everyone for everything?

There are already rules in place to prevent wide-spread harassment (I.e. following a person from thread to thread calling him/her a nazi or a communist), and those can be applied. There's also the ignore function on the forum as well.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, wide-spread harassment, which very possibly goes beyond me and my region. I don't believe that I should have to use the ignore function as the (for want of a better word) victim.

Under site rules, you are not. Look, NS is not a safe space and we've never stated that it should or would be. That means people will be challenged, especially in General and in GP. That's also why we have the ignore function and rules against harassment if it goes too far.

[Kranostav]

Joscopor, to some extent I can relate to the feeling you get of hating being called an IRL Nazi when you are obviously not one. Seeing that your primary presence is in the WA, I can see the aspect of you region, CoCD, having you associated with fash and Nazi likes. The WA forums being IC, can also allow people to throw ideological tags upon you in an IC manner referring to your leadership and presence in a region that harbours dictatorships, amount of which are fascist. So although you might not claim to be fash or Nazi, you carry this guilt by association, regardless of it being fair or not.

I'm not saying that guilting you by association is okay or jusitifed, just that it occurs and explains people's outlook on you. That mixed with multiple people lack of IC vs OOC separation when looking at you, it becomes fairly obvious how one may jump to those Nazi conclusions. Furthermore, pulling shenanigans on the WA stage really doesn't help your case of being treated maturely or given the benefit of the doubt.

Just my 2cents and input.

[Jocospor]

And what is the difference between saying "Don't rp with him, he's a nazi" and "Don't RP with him, he's a godmodder"?

Must we now protect everyone for everything?

OOC: Err, I would have thought there to be a significant difference, actually. Surely I don't need to elaborate.

I would say, yes, you do have a duty of care to protect players when they raise certain issues like I have done. No one is asking NationStates to prepare for every eventuality, but this is now a problem and needs to be dealt with.

Under site rules, you are not. Look, NS is not a safe space and we've never stated that it should or would be. That means people will be challenged, especially in General and in GP. That's also why we have the ignore function and rules against harassment if it goes too far.

Again, this seems particularly flawed. If NationStates isn't a safe space, why are flaming and flaimbaiting a thing? If I call someone a "goddamn, fucking prick" and then a "Nazi", we all know which one is being reported - except I'd argue the latter is significantly worse. Anyone with an actual understanding of what a Nazi is knows that, which is why I find it ironic that the people who are seemingly so fervently opposed to Nazis are the ones who are the happiest to throw the word around at others.

A lot of my other objections in my previous post were left unaddressed, though that was addressed to USS Monitor after all.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Gameplay harassment seems to have an odd application though. For example, this post
viewtopic.php?p=34954984&sid=aa626990a35d575c8b5551c8bcdb86bd#p34954984
telling people to avoid interactions with a particular group lest they be labelled a Nazi sympathiser, sounds like it should cover it as it's a blatent threat (if you talk to this man I will give you a bad name.) To take this to its logical conclusion, where does it end: if you rp with this person I'll spread your name around as someone to avoid? If you ban me from your thread I'll spread rhumours about you? This type of behaviour in gameplay, threatening people for merely associating with a person or persons influencial members have chosen to dislike, is becoming more and more widespread and, in my opinion, not just contributing to toxicity...the divisiveness and seriousness of accusations thrown about so freely are the primary cause of it.

And what is the difference between saying "Don't rp with him, he's a nazi" and "Don't RP with him, he's a godmodder"?

Must we now protect everyone for everything?

This is, as far as I'm concerned, wide-spread harassment, which very possibly goes beyond me and my region. I don't believe that I should have to use the ignore function as the (for want of a better word) victim.

Under site rules, you are not. Look, NS is not a safe space and we've never stated that it should or would be. That means people will be challenged, especially in General and in GP. That's also why we have the ignore function and rules against harassment if it goes too far.

The difference between the two examples you ave are that proof is required for one of them. 'Don't rp with him, he's a nazi' can be thrown around without any proof attached, and if enough voices echo such a sentiment it is believed.
'Don't rp with him, he's a godmodder' either requires proof, or at the very least there is something that the person being spoken to can check (the aledged godmodder's post history) and make that judgement for themselves. When you are telling someone not to associate with another player because of a reason, there should be a duty on you to provide proof, or moderation risk fostering a culture where people can be ostrasised and isolated based on the opinions of a handful of influencial people.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

It's not just the fact that it's offensive, it's that this same "argument" is used against us quite literally everywhere any of us posts.

It just feels so awful to try and actually have a discussion on a proposal and instead of anyone actually debating it on its merits we get 20 pages of "against due to author, CCD are Nazis" - see almost the entirety of the recent Repeal: Commend Imperium Anglorum thread.

Take this for example:

That's the inherent problem with fascist ideology regarding self-reflection. Every time something doesn't go your way? It's a conspiracy. Your world view doesn't allow for you to fail on your own merits, or allow for the majority of others to reject your ideology. You insist that every setback you face must be a conspiracy against you. It's a rather pathetic habit from people who love to project the image of strength.

In this case? Your resolution will fail because most players appreciate the work IA has done for this game and community. And yet I guarantee you that once it's clear it'll fail? You or Joco or someone else will start whining about the "WA Elite" stacking the vote.

"It's just RP bro!" is a pretty weak argument that the CoCD only started trotting out when they started to face blowback for their actions.

And to be clear...I don't know if you're a Nazi or fascist in real life. What I do know is that fascists and Nazis who go "just jokes!" after they have to face real consequences for their actions IRL are a well-documented thing.
So if you and your region are going to continue to put up the face of antagonistic fascists? I'm going to continue to assume the worst until your region actually does something meaningful to make it clear you don't actually promote fascism and Nazism.

There's also a double standard here (or at least it strongly feels that way). I'm certain that if I'd gone into another SC thread, called the author a "commie" and then went on a tirade about McCarthyism and how "communists who go "just jokes!" after they have to face real consequences for their actions IRL are a well-documented thing" it'd be actioned against immediately.

While something was eventually done about this instance, it was about two pages late and only for dragging the discussion off-topic, nothing to do with the contents of their posts.

[USS Monitor]

The problem with this is that some people ARE Nazis, Communists, etc. and pointing out someone's ideology is not an insult. Ideological labels are a bit fuzzy, so even if a person disagrees with the label, others might honestly believe it fits.

Particularly when people are presenting evidence for their opinion, it's more of a disagreement than a flame. People disagree with you about how close to actual original-flavor NSDAP Nazism you have to get before you are a Nazi.

OOC: Hi USS Monitor. I'm sorry to say I find your logic absolutely flawed. If we simplify your argument, you're just giving the accusers the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't it be more sensible to give the defendants the benefit of the doubt, since the defendants know themselves better than anyone else does. The fact that we've repeatedly said "We're not IRL Nazis" (we're not even in-game Nazis) and people keep calling us such is particularly infuriating.

If a player calls you a Nazi and you report them for flaming, they are the defendant. They are the one who was reported for potentially breaking site rules.

We allow Nazis to use NS. It is not fair or consistent to tell other players that they are not allowed to discuss who they think is a Nazi if we allow Nazis to use the site.

I've no issue with you allowing real Nazis to use NationStates, but how is it "fair or consistent" for players of the community to repeatedly hurl "You're a Nazi!!" at people who deny being so. After all, all we can do is deny it. Does our word count for anything?

It is not our job to rule on whether you are a Nazi or not. If someone calls you a Nazi and we rule it "not actionable," that does not mean they are right. It just means the post did not break site rules. People can post many things that are wrong, but still allowed.

[The New California Republic]

I don't see how calling a Nazi a Nazi is baiting or trolling...?

I need you to consider, New California Republic, why someone might be offended if you called them that. Perhaps if you knew a little more about Third Reich you wouldn't be so liberal with your labels.

And I need you to consider that I actually know a lot about the history of Europe in general, including the crimes of the Nazis (having visited a number of concentration camps and read widely on the subject), so that has nothing to do with why I said that I wouldn't think that calling a Nazi a Nazi is trolling. And it should also be made known that I have never called you a Nazi.