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by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:37 pm
by Eluvatar » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:39 pm
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Was my post on the mods resigning issue deleted by a mod or did it just not post? I'm having internet issues currently so if it just didn't post I'll repost it (otherwise appeal incoming)
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:40 pm
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:41 pm
by King HEM » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 pm
by USS Monitor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:43 pm
Malashaan Colony wrote:Like others, I am very disappointed in this statement. It feels like a side-step rather than a decision. However, I'm going to limit my substantive comments to one particular contradiction that the moderation team should address. In the statement, it says:Acting on off-site information: We do act on off-site information to the extent that when we receive such information we often start our own investigation here. Anything we find that supports the information from off-site can and will be acted on here. This has been standard practice for years and will remain so. Any such information can be submitted via Getting Help.
However, the defamation rule appears to directly contradict this assertion. In particular, it states:Please don't bring non-NationStates business to the NationStates forums, Getting Help page, or #themodcave. In particular, accusations of misconduct outside of NationStates do not belong in NationStates and will be punished as defamatory.
Note that the defamation rule does not distinguish between the forums, the getting help page, and #themodcave. If it would be defamatory to talk about it on the forum (under the incredibly broad definition used in the policy), it would also be defamatory to submit the same thing in a Getting Help Request. Wed know that I cannot post "Player X has been banned from region Y for sexual harassment" and link to the announcement from the region; that is exactly the kind of post that triggers a defamation warning. Therefore, under the current rule and policy, I should also receive a defamation warning for submitting the same information in a Getting Help Request. If nothing else, I hope the rule can be tweaked to make it clear that submitting evidence to the mods in private will not lead to a defamation warning.
by USS Monitor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:45 pm
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:USS Monitor wrote:
That idea has come up in our discussions. It is a possibility, but would be a long-term thing, not an immediate fix.
Oh come on.
It takes literally seconds to install a free forum script like ns uses, and unless ns uses some shitty cheap hosting provider then it's got more than enough bandwidth. At least you could make it so smaller regions don't have to move offsight immediately, by allowing the hosting of elections and the like on the ns forums.
by USS Monitor » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:46 pm
by Bursalavoro » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:49 pm
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:52 pm
Bursalavoro wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention the fact the moderators, and administrator of forums can edit members posts. Therefore, if a moderator and or administrator holds some sort of vendetta against a user they can easily frame a user. There are scripts that can be added to zetaboards that make it so it doesn't appear that a post has been edited. While what's to stop someone from registering on a forum with a vpn as a user they hate on nationstates then going on it and harassing people or posting porn? Although it has good intentions, it can just be weaponized too easily.
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:53 pm
by Jakker » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:56 pm
King HEM wrote:As an administrator of an off-site property, I know how frustrating it can be to have hostile commentary ensue after a decision has been made. I don't expect anything that is said here will create an about-face, so I'll be brief in my one concluding point:
It is becoming my suspicion that there are a not-insignificant number of moderators who simply do not understand gameplay. We've had some of them step forward during this discussion, but I suspect there are many more who have never been involved in gameplay, and have made no effort to understand how it works. Would a company that operates communication services on, say, Slack abdicate responsibility of enforcing harassment that took place there because it isn't in the company's physical building? That's not a perfect comparison, but it certainly strikes at the matter closer than pretending all these properties populated by NSers, for the purpose of playing NS, have no relationship with NS.
Very disappointing decision.
It is clear the leadership will have to come from the grassroots local administrators, and not from Nationstates.net.
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
by Bursalavoro » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:57 pm
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Bursalavoro wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention the fact the moderators, and administrator of forums can edit members posts. Therefore, if a moderator and or administrator holds some sort of vendetta against a user they can easily frame a user. There are scripts that can be added to zetaboards that make it so it doesn't appear that a post has been edited. While what's to stop someone from registering on a forum with a vpn as a user they hate on nationstates then going on it and harassing people or posting porn? Although it has good intentions, it can just be weaponized too easily.
Luckily ns uses phpbb and that has some pretty indepth logging.
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:58 pm
Jakker wrote:King HEM wrote:As an administrator of an off-site property, I know how frustrating it can be to have hostile commentary ensue after a decision has been made. I don't expect anything that is said here will create an about-face, so I'll be brief in my one concluding point:
It is becoming my suspicion that there are a not-insignificant number of moderators who simply do not understand gameplay. We've had some of them step forward during this discussion, but I suspect there are many more who have never been involved in gameplay, and have made no effort to understand how it works. Would a company that operates communication services on, say, Slack abdicate responsibility of enforcing harassment that took place there because it isn't in the company's physical building? That's not a perfect comparison, but it certainly strikes at the matter closer than pretending all these properties populated by NSers, for the purpose of playing NS, have no relationship with NS.
Very disappointing decision.
It is clear the leadership will have to come from the grassroots local administrators, and not from Nationstates.net.
I think HEM's post is well-said and should be reflected upon extensively.
by Conservative Values » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:00 pm
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:00 pm
Crushing Our Enemies wrote:If I were a mod, I would resign today.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:02 pm
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Crushing Our Enemies wrote:If I were a mod, I would resign today.
I’d also look at it as “you’re making it a lot less likely that anyone from GP accepts an offer to be a mod whenever you get around to it, if they feel that they can’t sufficiently act to take on the issues more serious than a bit of forum flaming.”
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:09 pm
King HEM wrote:As an administrator of an off-site property, I know how frustrating it can be to have hostile commentary ensue after a decision has been made. I don't expect anything that is said here will create an about-face, so I'll be brief in my one concluding point:
It is becoming my suspicion that there are a not-insignificant number of moderators who simply do not understand gameplay. We've had some of them step forward during this discussion, but I suspect there are many more who have never been involved in gameplay, and have made no effort to understand how it works. Would a company that operates communication services on, say, Slack abdicate responsibility of enforcing harassment that took place there because it isn't in the company's physical building? That's not a perfect comparison, but it certainly strikes at the matter closer than pretending all these properties populated by NSers, for the purpose of playing NS, have no relationship with NS.
Very disappointing decision.
It is clear the leadership will have to come from the grassroots local administrators, and not from Nationstates.net.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Tim-Opolis » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:11 pm
Bursalavoro wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention the fact the moderators, and administrator of forums can edit members posts. Therefore, if a moderator and or administrator holds some sort of vendetta against a user they can easily frame a user. There are scripts that can be added to zetaboards that make it so it doesn't appear that a post has been edited. While what's to stop someone from registering on a forum with a vpn as a user they hate on nationstates then going on it and harassing people or posting porn? Although it has good intentions, it can just be weaponized too easily.
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic
by King HEM » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:14 pm
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:King HEM wrote:As an administrator of an off-site property, I know how frustrating it can be to have hostile commentary ensue after a decision has been made. I don't expect anything that is said here will create an about-face, so I'll be brief in my one concluding point:
It is becoming my suspicion that there are a not-insignificant number of moderators who simply do not understand gameplay. We've had some of them step forward during this discussion, but I suspect there are many more who have never been involved in gameplay, and have made no effort to understand how it works. Would a company that operates communication services on, say, Slack abdicate responsibility of enforcing harassment that took place there because it isn't in the company's physical building? That's not a perfect comparison, but it certainly strikes at the matter closer than pretending all these properties populated by NSers, for the purpose of playing NS, have no relationship with NS.
Very disappointing decision.
It is clear the leadership will have to come from the grassroots local administrators, and not from Nationstates.net.
One of the better lines of comparison I’ve seen. You can go to HR with even say, texts of someone’s behavior and have it addressed, much less a group chat somewhere focused specifically on company work.
If NS doesn’t want to help here, or take any responsibility at all for the effects of the offsite community it has fed, then it logically really should promote them less. A “You are now leaving this site” Banner with a couple bullets and a link to another page somewhere like the FAQ or OSRS that goes into more detail, discusses that offsite generally are a thing and safe but what the risks can be, and some general internet safety/what to do if you feel uncomfortable tips would be...something, at least.
by Caelapes » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:19 pm
USS Monitor wrote:Crushing Our Enemies wrote:If I were a mod, I would resign today.
Would that be genuinely helpful? If there ever comes a time where I am told that I am doing more harm than good -- and I believe it is being said in earnest and reflects the feeling of the community, not just one or two people speaking from anger -- I have no problem resigning. Right now I don't see that it would be good for the site.
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:20 pm
King HEM wrote:Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
One of the better lines of comparison I’ve seen. You can go to HR with even say, texts of someone’s behavior and have it addressed, much less a group chat somewhere focused specifically on company work.
If NS doesn’t want to help here, or take any responsibility at all for the effects of the offsite community it has fed, then it logically really should promote them less. A “You are now leaving this site” Banner with a couple bullets and a link to another page somewhere like the FAQ or OSRS that goes into more detail, discusses that offsite generally are a thing and safe but what the risks can be, and some general internet safety/what to do if you feel uncomfortable tips would be...something, at least.
It's worth noting that too, that the official gameplay explanation thread posted by a former NS staff member promotes offsite forums as a way to engage in gameplay.
So, basically, NS staff is encouraging people to create/join offsite forums, get harassed, and then are claiming they have no responsibility for the predators who are unrooted because those properties are not related to NS (??).
I'd say more, but I think it's all been said.
by Conservative Values » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:25 pm
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:King HEM wrote:
It's worth noting that too, that the official gameplay explanation thread posted by a former NS staff member promotes offsite forums as a way to engage in gameplay.
So, basically, NS staff is encouraging people to create/join offsite forums, get harassed, and then are claiming they have no responsibility for the predators who are unrooted because those properties are not related to NS (??).
I'd say more, but I think it's all been said.
Given NS' stance on linking offsite, if their was a non-ns related website where people were regularly harassed would moderation even allow links to it?
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:27 pm
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:King HEM wrote:
It's worth noting that too, that the official gameplay explanation thread posted by a former NS staff member promotes offsite forums as a way to engage in gameplay.
So, basically, NS staff is encouraging people to create/join offsite forums, get harassed, and then are claiming they have no responsibility for the predators who are unrooted because those properties are not related to NS (??).
I'd say more, but I think it's all been said.
Given NS' stance on linking offsite, if their was a non-ns related website where people were regularly harassed would moderation even allow links to it?
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
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