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by Cogitation » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:43 am
by Greater Cesnica » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:53 am
Cogitation wrote:Just to give everyone a heads-up, The NationStates Moderation and Administration Teams are still in the process of drafting an official response to this petition. We are Almost Done™ and it will be posted Soon™. We cannot commit to having said response be posted by YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS, but if you're checking this thread only to see if we've actually posted our response yet, then my suggestion is to check back every 12 hours.
--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
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by Phydios » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:07 pm
Cogitation wrote:Just to give everyone a heads-up, The NationStates Moderation and Administration Teams are still in the process of drafting an official response to this petition. We are Almost Done™ and it will be posted Soon™. We cannot commit to having said response be posted by YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS, but if you're checking this thread only to see if we've actually posted our response yet, then my suggestion is to check back every 12 hours.
--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you. | Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’James 1:26-27, Matthew 7:21-23
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:47 pm
Pollaetorian wrote:Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Nothing happens. No one is asking moderation to chase down harassment occurring offsite proactively, just to actually do something when it's dropped in their lap that a player is likely to use their service to target more individuals, rather than dismiss it. It's about whoever's on top allowing the team to work with the admins of NS-specific areas, when those admins reach out, to cooperate on handling these threats.
Players definitely would make it political though, going after regions who won't and accusing them that they have nothing to hide, why don't they give access to Mods etc.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by The North Polish Union » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:37 pm
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Pollaetorian wrote:
Players definitely would make it political though, going after regions who won't and accusing them that they have nothing to hide, why don't they give access to Mods etc.
I'm not entirely sure what you're going for here, Codger. Going after regions who won't deal with harassers or other issues? That's already a thing, and I think personally a good one. A few regions have been shunned for who they let remain there unaddressed. Are you saying there'd be an issue where a community handles something internally, does not go to moderation *as well,* and then gets attacked for that? Besides the incredibly fringe nature of that, I don't think you'd see it being a huge issue if it did happen. If someone says "we're confident enough that this person is a risk to remove them ourselves, but not confident that we can prove the entire evidence trail to the site's standards for acting on it," that's a pretty understandable place to be in.
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The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:01 pm
The North Polish Union wrote:Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you're going for here, Codger. Going after regions who won't deal with harassers or other issues? That's already a thing, and I think personally a good one. A few regions have been shunned for who they let remain there unaddressed. Are you saying there'd be an issue where a community handles something internally, does not go to moderation *as well,* and then gets attacked for that? Besides the incredibly fringe nature of that, I don't think you'd see it being a huge issue if it did happen. If someone says "we're confident enough that this person is a risk to remove them ourselves, but not confident that we can prove the entire evidence trail to the site's standards for acting on it," that's a pretty understandable place to be in.
I think Codger's point is more that regions which choose to allow NS moderators to access offsite evidence (assuming this happens at all) will try to politicize other regions' choice not to allow that and will try to create the impression that such regions are hiding something regardless of whether or not that is actually the case.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Proctopeo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:50 pm
by Rostavykhan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:00 pm
by Tananat » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:14 pm
Proctopeo wrote:Taking all the above into account, it would be better overall to not do anything - ignoring a problem, while bad, is better than a sloppy solution, which this is.[/list]
by Proctopeo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:18 pm
Tananat wrote:Proctopeo wrote:Taking all the above into account, it would be better overall to not do anything - ignoring a problem, while bad, is better than a sloppy solution, which this is.[/list]
Considering everything that's happened recently, I and many others would probably argue opposite. NS is essentially a safe haven for harassers to remain in the game, so long as do nothing on site, leaving them free to offend again in whatever off site that may unknowingly let that person into their community. That's not, for many, an acceptable solution.
by Consular » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:30 pm
Proctopeo wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with this, for multiple reasons:
- The biggest issue is that you can never be absolutely sure that a user on NationStates and a harasser on another site are the same person. When the harassment occurs on-site, it's very obvious who is doing it. When it occurs off-site, unless their NationStates account is specifically mentioned (and preferably, for validity, confirmed with the account), you can't know (especially if their IPs, emails, and MAC addresses are different).
- Because of that issue, the standard of evidence must be lower for any action to be taken. This, of course, makes it exploitable. Which is, obviously, a bad thing.
- It'd likely be more work than simply allowing site-wide blocking (which would be the Foe list, Telegram blocks, and an RMB ignore all in one, plus anything else if I missed it), and we don't want to run the moderation team ragged do we? Especially if people were to start abusing it.
- Taking all the above into account, it would be better overall to not do anything - ignoring a problem, while bad, is better than a sloppy solution, which this is.
Proctopeo wrote:Tananat wrote:Considering everything that's happened recently, I and many others would probably argue opposite. NS is essentially a safe haven for harassers to remain in the game, so long as do nothing on site, leaving them free to offend again in whatever off site that may unknowingly let that person into their community. That's not, for many, an acceptable solution.
A sloppy solution, especially if its handling is exceptionally poor, would likely make the problem worse in ways simply ignoring it until we come up with something cleaner couldn't.
by Lady Scylla » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:42 pm
Greater Cesnica wrote:Cogitation wrote:Just to give everyone a heads-up, The NationStates Moderation and Administration Teams are still in the process of drafting an official response to this petition. We are Almost Done™ and it will be posted Soon™. We cannot commit to having said response be posted by YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS, but if you're checking this thread only to see if we've actually posted our response yet, then my suggestion is to check back every 12 hours.
--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
Holy. I have not seen you in ages.
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by Luziyca » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:17 pm
by NERVUN » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:09 am
by Tim-Opolis » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:26 am
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic
by Tananat » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:29 am
NERVUN wrote:Regarding the defamation rule: We feel that the rule is sufficient as written but we would clarify it to say that stating general factual accounts of things happening off-site are allowable. For instance, “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards for reasons detailed on them” is allowable. “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards because his thing about Hot Springs penguins is outside of nature’s laws” would not be, nor would “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards and you can read all about it at www.somedamnlink.somedomain.” Players are allowed to reply to such posts, again on general factual basis, in the thread. Behavior that can be seen as harassment (Mentioning it within multiple threads), flaming, or releasing private information is still against the rules.
by NERVUN » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:40 am
Tananat wrote:NERVUN wrote:Regarding the defamation rule: We feel that the rule is sufficient as written but we would clarify it to say that stating general factual accounts of things happening off-site are allowable. For instance, “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards for reasons detailed on them” is allowable. “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards because his thing about Hot Springs penguins is outside of nature’s laws” would not be, nor would “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards and you can read all about it at www.somedamnlink.somedomain.” Players are allowed to reply to such posts, again on general factual basis, in the thread. Behavior that can be seen as harassment (Mentioning it within multiple threads), flaming, or releasing private information is still against the rules.
Would this (the bold) apply to telegrams as well as forum or other public posts?
by NERVUN » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:44 am
Tim-Opolis wrote:Honestly, I'm just beyond disappointed that this basically reads as a lot of words to say "we're not going to do anything about the clear and present problem happening in game-endorsed extensions of the NS community". It's a complete injustice to the victims of the individuals which have engaged in predatory actions off-site - moving from offsite community to offsite community because they know there's nothing that NS Moderation will ever do about it. Furthermore, the continued gag order of being unable to warn people on-site about those individuals is just further endangerment of communities, because there is no way to actually state the dangers those individuals pose. Frankly, this feels and looks like continued willful ignorance of a problem that we are all - including site staff - very much aware of.
I lost a lot of respect for our Moderation Team today, and I can't see myself regaining that any time soon.
by Wopruthien » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:52 am
NERVUN wrote:Tim-Opolis wrote:Honestly, I'm just beyond disappointed that this basically reads as a lot of words to say "we're not going to do anything about the clear and present problem happening in game-endorsed extensions of the NS community". It's a complete injustice to the victims of the individuals which have engaged in predatory actions off-site - moving from offsite community to offsite community because they know there's nothing that NS Moderation will ever do about it. Furthermore, the continued gag order of being unable to warn people on-site about those individuals is just further endangerment of communities, because there is no way to actually state the dangers those individuals pose. Frankly, this feels and looks like continued willful ignorance of a problem that we are all - including site staff - very much aware of.
I lost a lot of respect for our Moderation Team today, and I can't see myself regaining that any time soon.
Tim, let me ask you this. Just what do you did a DOS order would actual do? If they are smart enough to mask their behavior on site, and make a new nation without any identifying information... How did you think we were going to stop them?
I'm honestly curious because the point being made about popping up again and again is... what DOS'ers do. We don't stop them unless we can identify them here, they (normally) don't go around announcing themselves. So what did you think we could do?
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:54 am
NERVUN wrote:Tim-Opolis wrote:Honestly, I'm just beyond disappointed that this basically reads as a lot of words to say "we're not going to do anything about the clear and present problem happening in game-endorsed extensions of the NS community". It's a complete injustice to the victims of the individuals which have engaged in predatory actions off-site - moving from offsite community to offsite community because they know there's nothing that NS Moderation will ever do about it. Furthermore, the continued gag order of being unable to warn people on-site about those individuals is just further endangerment of communities, because there is no way to actually state the dangers those individuals pose. Frankly, this feels and looks like continued willful ignorance of a problem that we are all - including site staff - very much aware of.
I lost a lot of respect for our Moderation Team today, and I can't see myself regaining that any time soon.
Tim, let me ask you this. Just what do you did a DOS order would actual do? If they are smart enough to mask their behavior on site, and make a new nation without any identifying information... How did you think we were going to stop them?
I'm honestly curious because the point being made about popping up again and again is... what DOS'ers do. We don't stop them unless we can identify them here, they (normally) don't go around announcing themselves. So what did you think we could do?
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Reploid Productions » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:07 am
Wopruthien wrote:NERVUN wrote:Tim, let me ask you this. Just what do you did a DOS order would actual do? If they are smart enough to mask their behavior on site, and make a new nation without any identifying information... How did you think we were going to stop them?
I'm honestly curious because the point being made about popping up again and again is... what DOS'ers do. We don't stop them unless we can identify them here, they (normally) don't go around announcing themselves. So what did you think we could do?
So am I reading this correctly... you are saying that DoSing anyone is pointless? Regardless of who or what they have done because the player can just get around it anyway?
NERVUN wrote:That said, per the site rules stating "Max and the Admins may invoke special rulings as they see a need," site staff has the right to remove a user for any reason not already outlined in the Terms of Service, the Frequently Asked Questions, or the One Stop Rules Shop. We try to avoid invoking that clause, but it is there and can be invoked when it is absolutely necessary for the protection of our players and the site.
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
by Tim-Opolis » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:09 am
NERVUN wrote:Tim-Opolis wrote:Honestly, I'm just beyond disappointed that this basically reads as a lot of words to say "we're not going to do anything about the clear and present problem happening in game-endorsed extensions of the NS community". It's a complete injustice to the victims of the individuals which have engaged in predatory actions off-site - moving from offsite community to offsite community because they know there's nothing that NS Moderation will ever do about it. Furthermore, the continued gag order of being unable to warn people on-site about those individuals is just further endangerment of communities, because there is no way to actually state the dangers those individuals pose. Frankly, this feels and looks like continued willful ignorance of a problem that we are all - including site staff - very much aware of.
I lost a lot of respect for our Moderation Team today, and I can't see myself regaining that any time soon.
Tim, let me ask you this. Just what do you did a DOS order would actual do? If they are smart enough to mask their behavior on site, and make a new nation without any identifying information... How did you think we were going to stop them?
I'm honestly curious because the point being made about popping up again and again is... what DOS'ers do. We don't stop them unless we can identify them here, they (normally) don't go around announcing themselves. So what did you think we could do?
King HEM wrote:To be painfully direct: If it proves to be logistically impossible to protect our members - as has been suggested by some - this website should shut down. If it is too hard, too stressful, too challenging to even try to protect our members, we need to call it quits. I've invested over a decade in this game, I care for it more than any person should over a game, but if it is literally impossible to stop predators from abusing members here, it's not worth it.
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:10 am
NERVUN wrote:First, our thanks to everyone for a respectful and helpful discussion. There has been a lot of behind the scenes discussion of the points raised both in the discussion thread and the petition.
To start, there seems to be some confusion over NS Moderation's handling of off-site information and our ability to take action on off-site activities. These are not the same and we will address them separately.
Acting on off-site information: We do act on off-site information to the extent that when we receive such information we often start our own investigation here. Anything we find that supports the information from off-site can and will be acted on here. This has been standard practice for years and will remain so. Any such information can be submitted via Getting Help.
NERVUN wrote:Acting on off-site actions: The NS Moderation and Admin teams simply cannot take action on the NationStates site based on something someone did on another site. We are not the internet police. Facebook does not punish you for what you may have done on Twitter, Twitter does not take action against you for something you may have done on Instagram, etc. The moderators and admins on the other sites are the people to whom you should go to report abuse. And of course if you feel that a law has been broken or someone is in immediate danger, contact law enforcement!
NERVUN wrote:That said, per the site rules stating "Max and the Admins may invoke special rulings as they see a need," site staff has the right to remove a user for any reason not already outlined in the Terms of Service, the Frequently Asked Questions, or the One Stop Rules Shop. We try to avoid invoking that clause, but it is there and can be invoked when it is absolutely necessary for the protection of our players and the site. It should be noted that a DOS order is not a magic bullet however. The important part of "Delete On Sight" is "sight." While we have tools to help us identify DOS players trying to sneak back in, it still comes down to Moderators using their analog MK I eyeballs and making a judgement. There is no guarantee that removing someone here will keep them away and we certainly cannot affect that person's ability to join other sites.
NERVUN wrote:With regards to the request to publicly announce when such individuals have been declared "Delete on Sight", that will not be happening as they often entail legal liabilities that we cannot comment on. We have never made such announcements and we will continue to not do so. As with all DOS players, it is enough to know that the team has determined that they are no longer welcome to play NationStates.
NERVUN wrote:Regarding the defamation rule: We feel that the rule is sufficient as written but we would clarify it to say that stating general factual accounts of things happening off-site are allowable. For instance, “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards for reasons detailed on them” is allowable. “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards because his thing about Hot Springs penguins is outside of nature’s laws” would not be, nor would “Nationstan was removed from his admin position on the Regionboards and you can read all about it at www.somedamnlink.somedomain.” Players are allowed to reply to such posts, again on general factual basis, in the thread. Behavior that can be seen as harassment (Mentioning it within multiple threads), flaming, or releasing private information is still against the rules.
In light of this, the warning for Escade is rescinded, though the link will still remain redacted.
NERVUN wrote:Finally, to the admins and moderators of other boards, we hear you and we understand. We've been struck by how often it's been said that the admins of other sites are small teams, unprepared and struggling to deal with these kinds of incidents. That's us, too. We're not trained crisis staffers, law enforcement agents, or psychologists but we do have experience, some of us, with dealing with these kinds of issues and we're more than willing to offer advice or to just talk about how to handle such cases; including how to file reports with law enforcement agencies. Please do not hesitate to get in touch.
Thank you all for your patience in waiting for this. As you may have guessed, this was not an easy one.
--The NationStates Moderation and Administration Teams
Some related links:
Reporting abuse on Discord: https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us ... se-Support
Reporting abuse on Skype: https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA1048 ... ws-desktop
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Guy » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:12 am
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
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