[Second Opinion Request] Mod Ruling in NS Sports

[Ceni]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=403987&p=31370453#p31370375

I would like a second opinion on this post, preferably by The Archregimancy (the mod with most knowledge in NS Sport), to clarify some points made in this post.

First of all, I would like to point out that having Musterfield's teams entered in the tournament is not forcing him to participate. If he does not want to participate, he can merely not RP in the thread. I am not forcing him to RP in the thread. However, removing his teams would present several logistical difficulties in running the event: a) they would force multiple people to change their scorinator files on short notice b) had Musterfield withdrawn before conferences were allocated, they would have been formatted in a different way to accommodate his request c) his withdrawal means I would have to do extra legwork to support his decision to withdraw by rearranging conferences and notifying scorinators. In short, his withdrawal massively changes the logistical set up for organizing the tournament, and is a massive burden on us as hosts.

Secondly, I believe this precedent has been addressed by NS Sport convention which is not to remove teams at such a late notice - and, in the case of CTE nations, which I believe is similar, not to remove the teams from the tournament. Are such instances now considered harassment by moderation?

And finally, what is the implication of this post, if it is upheld by second opinion? Does it mean I am forced to withdraw his teams from the tournament, even with the logistical difficulties it entails? Can I leave the teams in the tournament to avoid these even with the understanding that Musterfield will not be RPing in the event?

Now, I am not forcing Musterfield to participate at any point - he can ignore the tournament and exist like it never happened while still having his teams entered in terms of continuity purposes for scorination. I never forced him to sign up, and I am not forcing him to RP. Keeping his teams for scorination to avoid messing up the whole tournament is not me forcing him to RP or participate.

[Electrum]

Should Arch not be available (he hasn't been on in ages), and to ensure that the tournament runs smoothly without any further delay, I present two reasons (with permission from Ceni) why the withdrawal cannot be made for an alternate mod ruling.

1. From a practical standpoint, it can not happen. xkoranate, the program that everyone uses to score tournaments, and indeed, all other scorinators cannot simply delete teams at will. Here's how xkoranate works: you load in teams, it generates fixtures, and then you score each day. If you remove a team, then that restarts the fixtures, which restarts the entire generating scores process. This process cannot be easily changed and would require either each host to spend a lot of time rejigging each fixture every day and generating new tables, or to retcon the entire roleplay thread, which is certainly what we don't want. This doesn't even mention the logistics of the tournament, which requires each and every conference to have equal amounts of teams for their qualification process.

2. Precedent suggests otherwise: once scores have been generated/teams put into a system/a draw drawn up, hosts have never, ever removed teams. All that can be done is for the aggrieved party to not roleplay at all. This has happened many times, like in the two biggest tournaments of NS Sports: such as in the Olympics and in the World Cup (These are opinions from well respected members of the NS Sports communities, who have themselves hosted NSS' biggest tournaments).

The withdrawal may not have been made in good faith after all. Musterfield had said he had not been chosen as a host, and then the day after withdrew, stating that he had no time to host .This is despite the fact that he was prepared to give up that time in hosting. This alone doesn't suggest anything, circumstances may have changed, but it's not a very good thing to do in itself: the best thing is just to not roleplay instead of withdrawing.

In essence, you cannot withdraw once the draws have been made, but you can not participate by simply not roleplaying.

EDIT: Also, this comment below is extremely unhelpful.

Savage

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I believe the mods were aware of the Britonisea situation in the Olympics due to a related kerfuffle involving me allegedly flaming him and making supposedly harassing puppet check requests for another tournament in light of the Olympics withdrawal, which I viewed as suspicious and DLN viewed as me harassing him, but search is on the fritz so I'm not certain and can't find anything. In any case, they took no action against Free Republics. Maybe someone else will have more luck finding something.

[Musterfield]

i resigned for several reasons. First, in the thread the main host had said that new players (not complete newbies) would be able to gain some hosting experience. Yet,when hosts were chosen, I did not see any hosts that were new. All of them were experienced hosts. I resigned in protest because I felt the host had mislead me. I asked why I didn't get chosen as host. I did not receive an answer. Had I received a legimate and reasonable answer, I might have stayed in. Another reason, I didn't realize I had to post rosters for 9 teams. I thought there would be some mechanic where I only had to post rosters for my top three teams or so. When the roster thread was published, I realized I was wrong.

[Musterfield]

Precedents can be broken.

Regardless of how it would hurt the tournament and the host, it would still be wrong to make me have to be in this competition. The effects on the tournament are irrelevant.

[Musterfield]

Has anyone roleplayed anything that includes my team?

[Musterfield]

I would like to point out that in real life, if college teams do not want to play games that are not part of their regular season or required tournaments, they do not have to.

[Musterfield]

Here is a compromise I am offering, you can keep my teams but rename them, change the trigram, and make it so that they have no corrolation with my nation. There can not be even an hint of them being connected with me. A puppet of someone can take over control for them.

[Frisbeeteria]

in the case of CTE nations, which I believe is similar, not to remove the teams from the tournament.

Not remotely similar. CTE nations have just wandered off. Musterfield refused to play.

massive burden on us as hosts.

That cannot be a factor in this decision. We're not here to make your lives easier. We're here to enforce the rules of the game, which very much include the right of any player to not play with any other player.

Here is a compromise I am offering, you can keep my teams but rename them, change the trigram, and make it so that they have no corrolation with my nation.

This seems like a reasonable compromise. I don't know sports RP, but I know you (or we, if we must) can edit posts to rename the teams and run them as NPCs. If that's an added burden for your scorination, so be it.

[Musterfield]

I will let the other people choose the names, and they can create a new post and say those teams are replacing my teams.

[Ceni]

If I may ask, why can't Musterfield simply ignore the tournament and act like it never happened in his IC canon and totally ignore it?

Does Musterfield's inclusion in a scorinated event, regardless of his RP participation or not, mean that he is "playing?" If he does not participate, is he "playing" in the game?

Put in another way, why won't Musterfield's nonparticipation in this event suffice to satisfy the rules of the game?

Can you please point me to the rule that states that Musterfield has the right to withdraw all mention of himself from the tournament, even if he does not RP?

I do not see how keeping his schools in the tournament, with no RP participation, is in any way infringing upon Musterfield's right not to participate.

I am concerned that this might set a worrying precedent for the NS Sport community - if we extrapolate this to larger events involving hundreds of nations or thousands of participants (like the World Cup or the Olympics), it would make already challenging events nearly impossible to host. We could use not having the trouble of taking names in and out at every moment left and right - especially at the Olympics, where this would be a massive burden.

Come to think about this, this could destroy the subforum. If I said I didn't want to play with my biggest rival in the World Cup, this precedent could allow me to kick him out - after all, I would have the RIGHT not to play with him.

[Musterfield]

If I may ask, why can't Musterfield simply ignore the tournament and act like it never happened in his IC canon and totally ignore it?

Does Musterfield's inclusion in a scorinated event, regardless of his RP participation or not, mean that he is "playing?" If he does not participate, is he "playing" in the game?

Put in another way, why won't Musterfield's nonparticipation in this event suffice to satisfy the rules of the game?

Can you please point me to the rule that states that Musterfield has the right to withdraw all mention of himself from the tournament, even if he does not RP?

I do not see how keeping his schools in the tournament, with no RP participation, is in any way infringing upon Musterfield's right not to participate.

I am concerned that this might set a worrying precedent for the NS Sport community - if we extrapolate this to larger events involving hundreds of nations or thousands of participants (like the World Cup or the Olympics), it would make already challenging events nearly impossible to host. We could use not having the trouble of taking names in and out at every moment left and right - especially at the Olympics, where this would be a massive burden.

Come to think about this, this could destroy the subforum. If I said I didn't want to play with my biggest rival in the World Cup, this precedent could allow me to kick him out - after all, I would have the RIGHT not to play with him.

I have offered a compromise. I suggest you read it. I am not ranked so that won't affect your scornation. The rules aren't there to make your jobs easy.

[Musterfield]

If I may ask, why can't Musterfield simply ignore the tournament and act like it never happened in his IC canon and totally ignore it?

Does Musterfield's inclusion in a scorinated event, regardless of his RP participation or not, mean that he is "playing?" If he does not participate, is he "playing" in the game?

Put in another way, why won't Musterfield's nonparticipation in this event suffice to satisfy the rules of the game?

Can you please point me to the rule that states that Musterfield has the right to withdraw all mention of himself from the tournament, even if he does not RP?

I do not see how keeping his schools in the tournament, with no RP participation, is in any way infringing upon Musterfield's right not to participate.

I am concerned that this might set a worrying precedent for the NS Sport community - if we extrapolate this to larger events involving hundreds of nations or thousands of participants (like the World Cup or the Olympics), it would make already challenging events nearly impossible to host. We could use not having the trouble of taking names in and out at every moment left and right - especially at the Olympics, where this would be a massive burden.

Come to think about this, this could destroy the subforum. If I said I didn't want to play with my biggest rival in the World Cup, this precedent could allow me to kick him out - after all, I would have the RIGHT not to play with him.

No games have been played yet.

[Musterfield]

Now is the best time for me to be able to withdraw. And for pete's sake I offered an easy compromise.

[Musterfield]

After IRC discussion, I have agreed to withdraw my moderator complaint and have agreeed to a compromise.

[The Archregimancy]

Note that I'm now participating in a follow-up discussion on this report.

Teams that withdraw from a tournament before it begins cannot be forced to participate in that tournament. However, what happens after a tournament starts could be usefully clarified. I am discussing this with my fellow moderators.

I stress that my participation in this discussion does not imply a particular outcome.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

Has the follow up discussion been completed yet? I just wanted to be sure I haven't missed anything.

[Sedgistan]

I think the discussion is complete. Arch hasn't been around the last week and a half, and this not being a time-sensitive matter, we're waiting on him for it to be resolved.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I think the discussion is complete. Arch hasn't been around the last week and a half, and this not being a time-sensitive matter, we're waiting on him for it to be resolved.

Ok, that seems fair. Thanks.