[D]Regarding Chat/Location Threads in F7

[Torrocca]

So... another three months have passed, and without much issue in the moderation-approved C/CLT thread! Now, with that in mind, we haven't necessarily gotten any word about a discussion beginning on the future of C/CLT threads. How soon can we expect an answer on their future, and can we offer any suggestions here in this thread regarding their future?

[USS Monitor]

There has been a little internal discussion about this, but I don't think we had a definite decision on the future of chat threads. AFAIK, the plan is to leave the Ram's Head for a while until we settle on a more permanent decision. There's no particular rush about it. While many posters in the Ram's Head have been well-behaved, a few have not, and there are still some concerns about what will happen if we open up a chat thread free for fall.

I don't see a problem with having this discussion thread. If people have input they want to post, they can do so.

[Arkadacia]

I'd like to bring up that a decent amount of players haven't been bothering with Ram's Head (particularly my group) because they dislike being around the "chill threaders". We're not compatible as RPers, we don't particularly enjoy being around them, and being crammed into a thread with them is like the creative equivalent of being put in a hydraulic press for us. Forcing a community as divided and decently diverse as F7 into a hole wasn't going to end well but at the beginning I tried to be optimistic.

Here's my suggestion for the future of F7 and trying to keep my players from being screwed over by the actions of a bunch of overly horny tweens, you may listen to them, you may not (I'm putting my money on this one, and seeing as there's a rather long history of mass punishment in F7 this frankly wouldn't surprise me). Just don't let shitty OPs run a thread. If their players repeatedly get into trouble and the OP doesn't (A. Kick the offending player(s) or (B. Attempt to punish the offending player(s), and if they fail to punish them on a frequent basis, tell the OP they can't run a thread anymore because they've clearly squandered the privilege they were given. Punish the source of the problem instead of nuking the entire bloody neighborhood and I assure you it CAN go away. Make sure people appoint responsible co-OPs to take care of the threads while they're gone, if you want to say they can't watch the threads 24/7.

I get there's a million different reasons to tell me to bugger off with an idea like that but I've yet to see anything besides 'just cram them into one thread and expect them to get along' and 'eh who cares about the people who had nothing to do with the typefucking just ban all threads of the sort'. Take the idea into consideration and mull it over a tad, you may just like it.

[USS Monitor]

I'd like to bring up that a decent amount of players haven't been bothering with Ram's Head (particularly my group) because they dislike being around the "chill threaders". We're not compatible as RPers, we don't particularly enjoy being around them, and being crammed into a thread with them is like the creative equivalent of being put in a hydraulic press for us. Forcing a community as divided and decently diverse as F7 into a hole wasn't going to end well but at the beginning I tried to be optimistic.

Here's my suggestion for the future of F7 and trying to keep my players from being screwed over by the actions of a bunch of overly horny tweens, you may listen to them, you may not (I'm putting my money on this one, and seeing as there's a rather long history of mass punishment in F7 this frankly wouldn't surprise me). Just don't let shitty OPs run a thread. If their players repeatedly get into trouble and the OP doesn't (A. Kick the offending player(s) or (B. Attempt to punish the offending player(s), and if they fail to punish them on a frequent basis, tell the OP they can't run a thread anymore because they've clearly squandered the privilege they were given. Punish the source of the problem instead of nuking the entire bloody neighborhood and I assure you it CAN go away. Make sure people appoint responsible co-OPs to take care of the threads while they're gone, if you want to say they can't watch the threads 24/7.

I get there's a million different reasons to tell me to bugger off with an idea like that but I've yet to see anything besides 'just cram them into one thread and expect them to get along' and 'eh who cares about the people who had nothing to do with the typefucking just ban all threads of the sort'. Take the idea into consideration and mull it over a tad, you may just like it.

This would involve keeping track of which players have had their C/CL hosting privileges revoked. That sounds like a lot of hassle for something that I am not sure if it would be effective or not.

[Arkadacia]

I'd like to bring up that a decent amount of players haven't been bothering with Ram's Head (particularly my group) because they dislike being around the "chill threaders". We're not compatible as RPers, we don't particularly enjoy being around them, and being crammed into a thread with them is like the creative equivalent of being put in a hydraulic press for us. Forcing a community as divided and decently diverse as F7 into a hole wasn't going to end well but at the beginning I tried to be optimistic.

Here's my suggestion for the future of F7 and trying to keep my players from being screwed over by the actions of a bunch of overly horny tweens, you may listen to them, you may not (I'm putting my money on this one, and seeing as there's a rather long history of mass punishment in F7 this frankly wouldn't surprise me). Just don't let shitty OPs run a thread. If their players repeatedly get into trouble and the OP doesn't (A. Kick the offending player(s) or (B. Attempt to punish the offending player(s), and if they fail to punish them on a frequent basis, tell the OP they can't run a thread anymore because they've clearly squandered the privilege they were given. Punish the source of the problem instead of nuking the entire bloody neighborhood and I assure you it CAN go away. Make sure people appoint responsible co-OPs to take care of the threads while they're gone, if you want to say they can't watch the threads 24/7.

I get there's a million different reasons to tell me to bugger off with an idea like that but I've yet to see anything besides 'just cram them into one thread and expect them to get along' and 'eh who cares about the people who had nothing to do with the typefucking just ban all threads of the sort'. Take the idea into consideration and mull it over a tad, you may just like it.

This would involve keeping track of which players have had their C/CL hosting privileges revoked. That sounds like a lot of hassle for something that I am not sure if it would be effective or not.

It would practically be as easy as making a .txt file or a google doc / onenote / however you prefer to share documents and putting their names and the names of their puppets in there. Hell, I could even manage that if you so desired.

Besides, as I said afterwards, I haven't seen any better / more fair ideas. When I do, I'll be on board.

[USS Monitor]

This would involve keeping track of which players have had their C/CL hosting privileges revoked. That sounds like a lot of hassle for something that I am not sure if it would be effective or not.

It would practically be as easy as making a .txt file or a google doc / onenote / however you prefer to share documents and putting their names and the names of their puppets in there. Hell, I could even manage that if you so desired.

Besides, as I said afterwards, I haven't seen any better / more fair ideas. When I do, I'll be on board.

Even if you managed such a list -- which we're not going to have you do -- I'm honestly not sure how that would help because we'd still have to tell you when to update the list and there'd still be the issue of enforcing it once someone is on the list. We're not going to go check names against a list every time someone posts a thread in F7.

I can think of better ways to keep records of who is allowed to OP and who isn't, but it would still be a lot of work for an uncertain amount of benefit and not terribly easy to enforce.

[Luziyca]

I think considering F7's history when it comes to these threads, they do not deserve a third chance to have a chat/location thread free-for-all. I am okay with the Ram's Head, and perhaps in the future, there could be a second mod-managed thread for those who don't want to just chill. That said, I do not see the point of lifting that moratorium on player-managed threads when all we will end up with is a permanent ban on these threads a few years from now because F7 denizens have abused their privileges. Better safe than sorry.

[Arkadacia]

It would practically be as easy as making a .txt file or a google doc / onenote / however you prefer to share documents and putting their names and the names of their puppets in there. Hell, I could even manage that if you so desired.

Besides, as I said afterwards, I haven't seen any better / more fair ideas. When I do, I'll be on board.

Even if you managed such a list -- which we're not going to have you do -- I'm honestly not sure how that would help because we'd still have to tell you when to update the list and there'd still be the issue of enforcing it once someone is on the list. We're not going to go check names against a list every time someone posts a thread in F7.

I can think of better ways to keep records of who is allowed to OP and who isn't, but it would still be a lot of work for an uncertain amount of benefit and not terribly easy to enforce.

A google doc / onenote can be edited and maintained by multiple people at once, so people would easily be able to just add names to the list when needed. And I didn't say for 'every kind of thread in F7', I was speaking of only location threads. Most people don't bother running location threads, they're just there to play in them. It's a sizeably small group of people who're willing to go through all the gray hair and frustration of running a thread themselves. And it's literally as easy as hitting control+F, typing in the name of the OP, and if their name is on the list? Lock the thread and remind them they aren't allowed to run one because they done screwed up. Perhaps I'm missing something but this is excessively simple to the point that anyone with basic knowledge of how computers work can do it.

And I can assure you it's more beneficial than cramming everyone into one thread and expecting them to get along (which is always an atrocious idea). It would practically be the same feckin' thing as it was before all location threads were banned except you could just boot shitty OPs who can't enforce their own rules, something that should've been done in the first place. I get that moderation really doesn't give a planck length's worth of a damn about improving the situation in F7 or doing them any favors but at least pretending to for once would be greatly appreciated. And enforcing it is practically just "oh, there's a new location thread. let me check the doc and compare the name of the OP with the name of the list. are they on it? Yes, then lock the thread. No? Then let 'em be."

I think considering F7's history when it comes to these threads, they do not deserve a third chance to have a chat/location thread free-for-all. I am okay with the Ram's Head, and perhaps in the future, there could be a second mod-managed thread for those who don't want to just chill. That said, I do not see the point of lifting that moratorium on player-managed threads when all we will end up with is a permanent ban on these threads a few years from now because F7 denizens have abused their privileges. Better safe than sorry.

You're an outsider who primarily partakes in NSG and as such are unfamiliar with F7 culture despite what you may think by just glancing at the forum and deciding you know everything. Look at the Liquid Wallaby and tell me if you see any rule breaking there. Go ahead. I'll wait, they've all been archived. Tell me my players and myself abused our privileges to anywhere near the degree required to lump us in with the "chill threaders".

Not to mention I've never seen you participate in a location thread in the past. Don't act like you're a community authority if you've never been there with us (and no, participating in 2011-2013 doesn't bloody count).

[Frisbeeteria]

A google doc / onenote can be edited and maintained by multiple people at once, so people would easily be able to just add names to the list when needed.

Speaking as a Senior Game Moderator for the entire team, I can promise you that we will not be doing any moderation work via Google Docs (or any similar service), whether open or closed. All moderation actions on this site are permanently logged on this site, and putting it offsite removes that protection.

There need be no further discussion on the merits of this aspect of the topic. Case closed.

Carry on.

[Arkadacia]

A google doc / onenote can be edited and maintained by multiple people at once, so people would easily be able to just add names to the list when needed.

Speaking as a Senior Game Moderator for the entire team, I can promise you that we will not be doing any moderation work via Google Docs (or any similar service), whether open or closed. All moderation actions on this site are permanently logged on this site, and putting it offsite removes that protection.

There need be no further discussion on the merits of this aspect of the topic. Case closed.

Carry on.

Very well, perhaps a private list in the private mod forum. I'm unaware of the inner workings of moderation, so I was unaware of that. Regardless, it's far simpler than it's been made out to be.

[Frisbeeteria]

Regardless, it's far simpler than it's been made out to be.

There's no way for you to know just how much we have on our plates, but I can assure you that maintaining a list of permitted posters is not going to happen. Sure, we could keep a list in a forum post in our hidden forum, but we're not going to. From the player perspective with minimal responsibilities, it does look easy. To someone like me trying to keep twenty balls in the air 24/7/365, I'm not remotely interested in adding number twenty-one.

Make your case without the need for a list, or it isn't going to happen. End of story.

[Torrocca]

There has been a little internal discussion about this, but I don't think we had a definite decision on the future of chat threads. AFAIK, the plan is to leave the Ram's Head for a while until we settle on a more permanent decision. There's no particular rush about it. While many posters in the Ram's Head have been well-behaved, a few have not, and there are still some concerns about what will happen if we open up a chat thread free for fall.

I don't see a problem with having this discussion thread. If people have input they want to post, they can do so.

Considering not all C/CLT threads have been the same (some more serious, some more 'fun'), would it be alright to add to the number of given threads a bit and 'diversify' the aspects of them? Some of the RPers in the F7 realm (myself, for an example) don't necessarily have the time to commit to a full-fledged, multi-paragraph RP, but do like to have a more 'serious' aspect to the C/CLT threads than others who prefer simple, one word posts ("Exist!" comes to mind), or basic posts that are basically standing on the line between OOC and IC, both of which are the current, primary modes of RP going on in the second Ram's Head thread. It'd not only be a nice bit of diversification (some people don't necessarily want to RP with the "Exist!" folks, or vice-versa, I'd assume), but I feel like it'd help figure out which of the two major offshoots of C/CLT threads have the more problematic issues.

[Chrinthanium]

As someone who used to frequent F7 back in the day, as someone who used to frequent the user-created location threads, and as someone who used to visit the Flaming Wombat.... I'm in favor of continuing the moratorium on these thread in F7. I would be in favor of a complete and permanent ban on these threads with only the Ram's Head being the mod-sanctioned chat thread in F7. We have a single chat thread in General that works quite well as far as I can see. There's no reason to reopen that Pandora's box in F7 again.

[Arkadacia]

As someone who used to frequent F7 back in the day, as someone who used to frequent the user-created location threads, and as someone who used to visit the Flaming Wombat.... I'm in favor of continuing the moratorium on these thread in F7. I would be in favor of a complete and permanent ban on these threads with only the Ram's Head being the mod-sanctioned chat thread in F7. We have a single chat thread in General that works quite well as far as I can see. There's no reason to reopen that Pandora's box in F7 again.

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

[G-Tech Corporation]

As someone who used to frequent F7 back in the day, as someone who used to frequent the user-created location threads, and as someone who used to visit the Flaming Wombat.... I'm in favor of continuing the moratorium on these thread in F7. I would be in favor of a complete and permanent ban on these threads with only the Ram's Head being the mod-sanctioned chat thread in F7. We have a single chat thread in General that works quite well as far as I can see. There's no reason to reopen that Pandora's box in F7 again.

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

Moderation is not saying C/CLT is banned permanently- don't mistake the opinions of posters for that of the overarching community, nor those of the Powers that Be, TNEL. Fris is merely suggesting that you come up with a different idea for policing C/CLT in F7 than something that is very time intensive for the Moderation team. The idea you proposed has been regarded as entirely a non-starter, which is fine. I'm sure you have other better ideas knocking about.

[Arkadacia]

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

Moderation is not saying C/CLT is banned permanently- don't mistake the opinions of posters for that of the overarching community, nor those of the Powers that Be, TNEL. Fris is merely suggesting that you come up with a different idea for policing C/CLT in F7 than something that is very time intensive for the Moderation team. The idea you proposed has been regarded as entirely a non-starter, which is fine. I'm sure you have other better ideas knocking about.

I've not seen anyone else come forth with an idea, as such it's my only one. To assume that just allowing threads back after a certain time will turn out fine is hopelessly naive but at the same time I'm not exactly going to be at home in a mod-forced thread like the Ram's Head because I dislike the chill threaders, and they dislike me even more than I dislike them. It's a catch 22. No good solutions, only slightly less awful ones.

[Reploid Productions]

One of the largest concerns on the mod team end of it is we haven't seen any real interest or effort in the community to self-police and as a group discourage the sort of problem behaviors that led to both the May Massacre and the moratorium in the first place. The attitude overwhelmingly seems to be that "we'll ride it out and mope in timeout until we're allowed our toys back," rather than, "What can we do to resolve the structural problems within the chill/chat location thread community as a whole so that we don't end up in timeout again?"

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

I've not seen anyone else come forth with an idea, as such it's my only one. To assume that just allowing threads back after a certain time will turn out fine is hopelessly naive but at the same time I'm not exactly going to be at home in a mod-forced thread like the Ram's Head because I dislike the chill threaders, and they dislike me even more than I dislike them. It's a catch 22. No good solutions, only slightly less awful ones.

Attitudes like this are symptomatic of the larger problem. This sort of cliquish "better than them" attitude is part and parcel of what led to the first moratorium in 2011. Unless the community can learn to get along better within its different cliques and subsets, if we lift the moratorium we'll just end up right back here again, whether in a few months or next year. Given the massive moderation headaches that have spawned from these types of threads, ultimately resulting in... is this the second or the third moratorium on them? I want to say second. Point being, these types of threads have proven repeatedly now to be more trouble than they are worth, and we are not seeing sufficient evidence in conduct to indicate that this is going to change in the slightest if we just allow them back again.

Given this, the prevailing opinion in the sekrit lair is not to lift the moratorium. Players were restricted to only having the Flaming Wombat as the One Chat Location Thread for a pretty long time, longer than folks have had to put up with the Ram's Head. Given that the original timeout and the Wombat didn't fix the underlying problems, leading us to the current situation, I suspect the Ram's Head is going to be the only game in town for awhile yet.

[Ava Ire]

Moderation is not saying C/CLT is banned permanently- don't mistake the opinions of posters for that of the overarching community, nor those of the Powers that Be, TNEL. Fris is merely suggesting that you come up with a different idea for policing C/CLT in F7 than something that is very time intensive for the Moderation team. The idea you proposed has been regarded as entirely a non-starter, which is fine. I'm sure you have other better ideas knocking about.

I've not seen anyone else come forth with an idea, as such it's my only one. To assume that just allowing threads back after a certain time will turn out fine is hopelessly naive but at the same time I'm not exactly going to be at home in a mod-forced thread like the Ram's Head because I dislike the chill threaders, and they dislike me even more than I dislike them. It's a catch 22. No good solutions, only slightly less awful ones.

Well, I think Torr's idea is a fairly okay one. Maybe we should consider opening another mod-sanctioned roleplaying thread in F7, but oriented around the Location Thread style as opposed to a Chill/Chat thread style.

If not, I don't see working with the Chill/Chat thread community as a problem.

[Luziyca]

Moderation is not saying C/CLT is banned permanently- don't mistake the opinions of posters for that of the overarching community, nor those of the Powers that Be, TNEL. Fris is merely suggesting that you come up with a different idea for policing C/CLT in F7 than something that is very time intensive for the Moderation team. The idea you proposed has been regarded as entirely a non-starter, which is fine. I'm sure you have other better ideas knocking about.

I've not seen anyone else come forth with an idea, as such it's my only one. To assume that just allowing threads back after a certain time will turn out fine is hopelessly naive but at the same time I'm not exactly going to be at home in a mod-forced thread like the Ram's Head because I dislike the chill threaders, and they dislike me even more than I dislike them. It's a catch 22. No good solutions, only slightly less awful ones.

I suggested that the mods create a second thread for the more serious RPers if need be, so there can be a chill thread for the more "casual" folks, and a more serious location thread. The problems with that though would be that the mods may get burdened if they have to deal with two location threads on F7, and there's the risk that these two threads could end up becoming more diluted until they merge into a solution.

But I think that chill/chat location threads operated by players should be permanently banned. As someone who participated in a few of them (and made a few of them before the first moratorium), I honestly feel that since F7 wasted their second chance, they do not deserve any more chances.

If they want a third chance, I suggest that we wait until 2021 before that happens: it'd be long enough for much of the F7 community to shift dramatically, as people grow out of F7. The newcomers would ideally learn to manage threads and not let rulebreakers off the hook, and will make sure that these threads will not become a moderation headache. But as long as the current F7 community remains as they are right now, I don't think we should have those threads operated by players.

[Arkadacia]

There has been a little internal discussion about this, but I don't think we had a definite decision on the future of chat threads. AFAIK, the plan is to leave the Ram's Head for a while until we settle on a more permanent decision. There's no particular rush about it. While many posters in the Ram's Head have been well-behaved, a few have not, and there are still some concerns about what will happen if we open up a chat thread free for fall.

I don't see a problem with having this discussion thread. If people have input they want to post, they can do so.

Considering not all C/CLT threads have been the same (some more serious, some more 'fun'), would it be alright to add to the number of given threads a bit and 'diversify' the aspects of them? Some of the RPers in the F7 realm (myself, for an example) don't necessarily have the time to commit to a full-fledged, multi-paragraph RP, but do like to have a more 'serious' aspect to the C/CLT threads than others who prefer simple, one word posts ("Exist!" comes to mind), or basic posts that are basically standing on the line between OOC and IC, both of which are the current, primary modes of RP going on in the second Ram's Head thread. It'd not only be a nice bit of diversification (some people don't necessarily want to RP with the "Exist!" folks, or vice-versa, I'd assume), but I feel like it'd help figure out which of the two major offshoots of C/CLT threads have the more problematic issues.

Here's this, since it seemed to be conveniently ignored. I think it's a rather decent idea.

[Barboneia]

I've not seen anyone else come forth with an idea, as such it's my only one. To assume that just allowing threads back after a certain time will turn out fine is hopelessly naive but at the same time I'm not exactly going to be at home in a mod-forced thread like the Ram's Head because I dislike the chill threaders, and they dislike me even more than I dislike them. It's a catch 22. No good solutions, only slightly less awful ones.

Well, I think Torr's idea is a fairly okay one. Maybe we should consider opening another mod-sanctioned roleplaying thread in F7, but oriented around the Location Thread style as opposed to a Chill/Chat thread style.

Or we should just give up, because the moderators obviously don't care what we think and trying to salvage any semblance of options at this point would be useless.

[Luziyca]

The 'better than them' attitude is not what started this moratorium, the constant cybersexing on the """chill threads""" is. I barely said a word in public mocking them until the debacle began. And ignoring the fact that there's a rather massive and blatantly obvious divide between groups isn't helping matters at all. We don't like one another (or outright hate one another), we're not compatible as players, and thinking that cramming us in the same thread and magically expecting things to improve is an idea that's utterly hopeless.

It takes two to tango. Plus, Forum 7 has had a history of chill/location threads: the players inevitably end up neglecting the rules, they become more toxic than Chernobyl, and the mods have to crack down on them.

In any case, I think that those who want to chill should drop their elitism to those who want to RP seriously, and vice-versa. You may be only one individual, but you should get to know one another. I am sure that you guys will find that you have more in common after a while than your differences. But I think that if these attitudes towards one another do not change, you F7ers will never get a player-operated location thread.

[Frisbeeteria]

Or we should just give up, because the moderators obviously don't care what we think and trying to salvage any semblance of options at this point would be useless.

That's a pretty defeatist attitude. The moderators aren't the only people in the game. Pretty much everything on these forums was originally and ultimately defined by the players. If you can figure out a way to get what you want while keeping rule breaking at bay, you'll never need the mods at all.

You'll never see a friendly post from me in a chill/location thread. That kind of interaction holds zero interest for me. Which also means, I'd rather not be forced to constantly intervene if/when problems arise. Therefore, if you want your toys back, you'll come up with clever and creative ideas that DON'T involve more work for the mods.

I personally could care less what solution you present. I only state that I agree with Reploid Productions that self-policing is the answer. Why doncha try working on that instead of sulking about the mean old mods.

[Torrocca]

I mean, probably the best solution is mutually beneficial cooperation between the two divisions of the C/CLT threads that also keeps moderator intervention in the current Ram's Head at an absolute minimum, if my other suggested compromise isn't going to be considered.

[Kyrusia]

I mean, probably the best solution is mutually beneficial cooperation between the two divisions of the C/CLT threads that also keeps moderator intervention in the current Ram's Head at an absolute minimum, if my other suggested compromise isn't going to be considered.

Bingo (emphasis added, if that is not apparent).

Moderation is not unaware of the differences in play styles in one part of the C/CLT community versus another. This was taken into consideration to begin with, weighed by the workload of each Moderator. Look at it this way: "Do we create two Mod-sanctioned threads, then define who can post where, and end-up responding to players from each side of the community complaining about not wanting something in another thread, on top of rule policing both there and elsewhere, or do we we make one?"

I can imagine it is easy to see why we went with one, especially when weighed by the actual stated purpose of the thread...

The purpose of this single, Mod-sanctioned thread is simple: this will provide players an avenue to demonstrate they are capable of coalescing as a community, are willing to engage in community policing ("Might want to tone that down a bit, Examplestan."), are unwilling to abide or tolerate rule-violating behavior, and are willing to report offending material. Players may file a Getting Help Request if they wish to maintain their confidentiality; please review the guide to making an effective GHR.

This was the stated intention from the beginning: to coalesce the community, to get everyone to view - regardless of their play style differences, variance in commitment, etc. - that it is not any one group's brand or play style that is under scrutiny, but the entirety of the thread type - a thread type that has already been placed on moratorium twice.

This is not an instance where the blame game will work. Moderation determined there are problems endemic to C/CLTs, regardless of the group of players, brand, or individual play style. That means if that community would like to have their threads back, they need to prove - as a community - they are willing to act as one in the defense of their preferred thread type. That means acknowledging, but setting aside differences and working together to find a solution - namely, ensuring rule-violations aren't permitted to go by without being reported and, further, adopting a mindset where, as a community, those who endorse "letting it slide" don't receive purchase in the community.