[discussion] pronoun silliness

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

I think that it is entirely consistent with other rules, such as political nicknaming. Debating an issue without personal attacks is valid. Deliberately calling your opponent a name which they find objectionable is not. It does not advance the argument, and only serves to cause offence.

[Flanderlion]

Well, then maybe you shouldn't allow that bullshit here either? Maybe you (not you personally, you collectively now) should start considering shit like "transwomen aren't real women" as trolling. While you're at it, maybe start going after some of the other kinds of bigotries that are festering here too before it becomes Stormfront lite.

Let's moderate those who don't believe in climate change. How about we moderate those whose grammar isn't up to scratch. Also those damn raiders, who are just trolls, let's moderate them out too. Oh right, there are those damn extremist supporters, lets moderate them out too. Let's moderate out everything that offends someone, until we all become a single minded mass of nothingness, with no dissenting opinions, just pure bliss and happiness.

This rule is redundant due to being covered by the others, but it's here to stay for now. This is a RP site, so people can RP and be whoever they want, and make beautiful factbooks to prove it. If someone wants to RP a character here, they can, and people should play along rather than baiting them by not playing along. If you are unsure/disagree, just use gender neutral pronouns, no one gets offended, or is forced to confront that people have different views, and everyone walks away happy.

[USS Monitor]

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

Well, then maybe you shouldn't allow that bullshit here either? Maybe you (not you personally, you collectively now) should start considering shit like "transwomen aren't real women" as trolling. While you're at it, maybe start going after some of the other kinds of bigotries that are festering here too before it becomes Stormfront lite.

I think there's a pretty big leap from allowing debate about how gender works to becoming Stormfront lite.

Allowing users to argue a position on the forums does not mean the site is actively promoting those views. It's just that we do not have any rule against being wrong on the forums.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It's really quite simple.

You can dispute the "validity" of transgender identities (imo you'd be being a twit for doing so, but there's no rule against being a twit). It's a debate site, of course you can do that.

You can use the neutral singular "they" if you have some kind of moral objection to referring to people as "he" or "she" as per their preferences. You are not obliged to use any pronoun that you consider "wrong". What you can't do is deliberately refer to individuals posting on the forum as being a gender they don't identify with because, given the clearly available alternative, doing so shows intent to wind them up rather than focusing on the points they're making.

As for the "NSG becoming Stormfront lite" comment, Dakini; this is a debate forum. If you do not like this perhaps you should spend your internet time in an invite-only trigger-filtered locale. Such places are available.

[NERVUN]

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

And we still allow people to debate the Holocaust, we do not allow them to state that the Jews deserved it.

There's inconsistencies in everything we do here.

[Dakini]

Well, then maybe you shouldn't allow that bullshit here either? Maybe you (not you personally, you collectively now) should start considering shit like "transwomen aren't real women" as trolling. While you're at it, maybe start going after some of the other kinds of bigotries that are festering here too before it becomes Stormfront lite.

I think there's a pretty big leap from allowing debate about how gender works to becoming Stormfront lite.

Allowing users to argue a position on the forums does not mean the site is actively promoting those views. It's just that we do not have any rule against being wrong on the forums.

That is true.

It is concerning that Sedge seems to think that the answer to the supposed inconsistency here is to declare that purposely misgendering people is not trolling instead of going the other way though.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I think there's a pretty big leap from allowing debate about how gender works to becoming Stormfront lite.

Allowing users to argue a position on the forums does not mean the site is actively promoting those views. It's just that we do not have any rule against being wrong on the forums.

That is true.

It is concerning that Sedge seems to think that the answer to the supposed inconsistency here is to declare that purposely misgendering people is not trolling instead of going the other way though.

Ah, but is it purposefully misgendering?

Or is it reminding someone confused in their sexuality about the reality that they have wrongly abandoned in their mental anguish?

Not that I'm endorsing either view; I'm simply pointing out that viewing misgendering through the lenses of one viewpoint is erroneous when attempting to determine what should or should not be permissible in the context of a public debate.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

The question is how we know if someone forgot what gender someone is or if they're deliberately misgendering. If someone told me their gender three months ago, I may not remember it now. If they told me it two minutes ago and then I say "I'll call him whatever I want" after being informed that the user identifies as female, that's clearly deliberate. But there's also some middle ground, and I'm curious whether users would be given the benefit of the doubt, and under what circumstances. Would the mods treat someone who has no history of anti-transgender statements (or perhaps even has explicitly supported trans rights) differently than someone who was known to be anti-transgender even if they have never had moderator action for such?

[Grenartia]

On another board that I am a member of (NSFW, so no link), the user's preferred pronoun is listed in their profile. I don't know if the mods could do something similar here...

I can't imagine we'd want to open up another field for "apache attack helicopter" meme trolling, because that's inevitably what would happen.

While I agree with that sentiment, what about a drop-down menu?

And you know, if someone walked into the trans thread and started going on about how transwomen aren't "real" women or something, I'd smack that shit down as trolling if I were a mod because it very clearly is.

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

Because to do otherwise is to blatantly allow for users to troll trans users. And if that happens, what's the point in having any rule against trolling or flaming?

Or do you actually want that?

[Neutraligon]

I see the rule as no different to my telling a poster not to call me kid. Once I have done that with that poster, them then deciding to call me kid clearly is baiting.

Being called one gender over the other or having one pronoun used with you over one you would prefer is a different than being called a kid.

Because being called a kid is attributing a negative attribute to you. Being a man as opposed to being a woman or vis versa are not negative traits.

And being called a man is seen as negative by those trans individuals who ask you not to. Ok another example I can ask you not to call me Neut. If you continue to do so against my requests then that is still baiting, even if there are no negative associations with Neut.

[Imperial Union of America]

Out of curiosoty, what is the "attack helicopter meme" and what's so bad about it?

[Neutraligon]

Out of curiosoty, what is the "attack helicopter meme" and what's so bad about it?

"I identify as a attack helicopter" is often a phrase used in response to trans individuals. It's sole purpose is to troll trans individuals.

[Philjia]

Out of curiosoty, what is the "attack helicopter meme" and what's so bad about it?

Oh God, that thing:

I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.

[Communal Ecotopia]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

That might very well be the solution. I certainly get the OPs frustration with compiling a list of people's PGPs (preferred gender pronouns), especially on a board where we're known by our nations rather than our names. Where I vehemently disagree with them is that the issue is silly or trivial. Unless people have it in their sigs, it's not easy, but pronouns are integral parts of who we are as people.

[Communal Ecotopia]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

That might very well be the solution. I certainly get the OPs frustration with compiling a list of people's PGPs (preferred gender pronouns), especially on a board where we're known by our nations rather than our names. Where I vehemently disagree with them is that the issue is silly or trivial. Unless people have it in their sigs, it's not easy, but pronouns are integral parts of who we are as people.

[The Blaatschapen]

Being called one gender over the other or having one pronoun used with you over one you would prefer is a different than being called a kid.

Because being called a kid is attributing a negative attribute to you. Being a man as opposed to being a woman or vis versa are not negative traits.

And being called a man is seen as negative by those trans individuals who ask you not to. Ok another example I can ask you not to call me Neut. If you continue to do so against my requests then that is still baiting, even if there are no negative associations with Neut.

Neut used to be a shortened version of a mods name.

Also it's Dutch for a shot of strong liquor. No negative connotations here (except for in the morning)

[Communal Ecotopia]

I can't imagine we'd want to open up another field for "apache attack helicopter" meme trolling, because that's inevitably what would happen.

While I agree with that sentiment, what about a drop-down menu?

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

Because to do otherwise is to blatantly allow for users to troll trans users. And if that happens, what's the point in having any rule against trolling or flaming?

Or do you actually want that?

We definitely could put in a drop down menu...or in our signatures. If someone's paying attention, they'll see your note on pronouns, Gren, and behave. If not...

[Neutraligon]

And being called a man is seen as negative by those trans individuals who ask you not to. Ok another example I can ask you not to call me Neut. If you continue to do so against my requests then that is still baiting, even if there are no negative associations with Neut.

Neut used to be a shortened version of a mods name.

Also it's Dutch for a shot of strong liquor. No negative connotations here (except for in the morning)

And yet if I tell a person not to call me Neut and they continue to do so they can be warned.

[Communal Ecotopia]

That should actually be how are they doing, but that's another issue.

The singular "they" takes some getting used to, and it may be rough going at first. I don't think that anyone is going to hold the occasional accidental "he" against you so long as you're willing to apologize for it, correct it, and move on. Just do your best with "they" until it stops feeling awkward.

As an actual transgender user, this.^ Also, you don't need to write down everybody's pronoun. Most of the time, those of us who desire a specific pronoun to be used will explicitly say so in our sigs.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - 1. yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of 2. whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

1. If you were a regular user, and I insisted on calling you "Fuckface" every time I interacted with you, would you not report me to moderation? Its certainly actionable, even you can see that. Why should this be any different? Its harrassment, plain and simple.

2. Why have any rules against flaming, baiting, flamebaiting, etc.? The targets are obviously too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin.

That shouldn't happen. Not in an ideal case, anyway. Honest mistakes and honest absent-minded forgetting shouldn't be actionable.

If there are cases where you've been warned for an honest mistake, then a quick explanation that you tend to default to male pronouns when you don't know / can't remember, and that no subtext was intended should generally do the trick. Accidents happen, and that's fine.

Since Sedge has gone public with his disagreement on the rule, I'll note two factors at work here:

1) As Reppy notes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have needed the rule; but we have run into significant problems where people intentionally needled people they disagreed with via the deliberate use of incorrect pronouns. This was something we felt we had to stop.

2) We are, however, aware that there's potential for misuse of the rule to stifle dissent rather than just help improve the tone of debate. That's potentially a problem itself, and one we're aware of; there's scope for a good-faith argument that the pendulum has gone too far in one direction.

Whether the solution is to simply fold deliberate misgendering into the trolling rule, or keep a specific separate rule but rephrase it is something we've looked at. We had an extensive internal discussion earlier this year that regrettably stalled without us reaching a final resolution. It might be time for us to look at this point more closely again; but we'll almost certainly continue to do so in private rather than hash that out here in public (which isn't to say that player viewpoints wouldn't be taken into account).

Honestly, in my experience (for what its worth as a non-mod, but also a member of the user community that would be the most likely to engage in that action), I've never seen a case where the rule has been used to stifle dissent, any more than your standard rules against insults.

I don't understand why people use such descriptions, anyway. "Honey," "Dearie," etc.
I mean, When was the last time anyone used shit like that to refer to complete strangers? That's shit my great grandma would say before she went to Valhalla.

I think it's a problem because it's silly. I don't think someone should get banned unless they are using misgendering to deliberately troll people. Even if someone just disagrees with Transgender or whatever, i think it's silly to ban/warn them for it. 1. You're going to have people who disagree with you. This isn't a transgender forum. 2. if someone is using it just to troll, that's another thing. But i think it should be possible to 'mis-gender' someone if you disagree with their transexuality.

3. and another thing, i've never seen any website with this issue before. I *assume* it's because of the high number of transexuals here, but i'm just guessing. 4. most people don't give a fuck about that pronoun thing, so 5. it betrays a deep sense of insecurity. If you really are xyz gender, then one must simply learn to grow a thick skin and be comfortable with who they are. That's why i don't get upset if someone keeps calling me 'she.' I ignore it. I don't care, because i know i was born with a phallus, and that is why i am a man.

I've never had the expectation on a forum before that i was required to use someones preferred pronoun or else. it's just silly.

6. Why is it an issue here but nowhere else? 7. Because one vocal group of people who extremely sensitive and must be cared for with velvet gloves, to protect them from the opinions of others? Maybe they are too sensitive and too easily offended. People have a variety of opinions here. I don't get offended when someone says Mother Mary was a prostitute or some crazy shit like that.

1. I think I can safely speak for the entire trans community here when I say that we are all more than well aware that this is neither a trans specific forum, nor a place where agreement is guaranteed (nor do we want it to be).

2. The obvious question becomes, where is that line drawn, between trolling and disagreement? What's to keep trolls from hiding behind protections for "simply disagreeing" to troll trans users? This is the same reason that simply "expressing an honest opinion" is (and has always been, at least since I first came here) no defense for trolling here.

3. This is one of the more trafficked forums on the internet, of course there's going to be things this place has to deal with that a 2-bit forum for, say, a video game modding community won't have to deal with, purely because more people are involved.

4. Most people don't like being insulted.

5. It arguably betrays a deep sense of insecurity on your part to make such a big deal out of a rule that has little to no impact on your ability to say things here.

6. Because before the rule existed, people used misgendering to troll trans users. Was it really that hard to figure out?

7. Ah, yay, the negative stereotyping rears its ugly head, yet again.

If it's obviously not deliberate, then it's not warnable. If it's obviously deliberate, then it is. If there's no way to tell, then we'll take a look to see if there's a history of prior issues, and take it in that context. You really, really don't have to worry about it if you're willing to correct it when you're wrong, as I did, and you're willing to try to get used to the singular "they". It's an adjustment, but it's possible.

Exactly. Also, for those who don't know (or don't remember), I considered Dyakovo a good friend. But he almost never good get the appropriate pronoun for me right. But I never held it against him, and gently reminded him, and he accepted it and corrected himself. To my knowledge, nobody ever reported him for misgendering, and if they had, as soon as I found out, I would have done my best to clarify the situation.

At that point, it's a case of tough cookies, as aside from the neutral "they", there is not a commonly known or widespread pronoun in use for third/nonbinary gender. Maybe not an ideal compromise, but "He, she, or they" is the most reasonable arrangement available from a fairness and enforcement standpoint.

And I've never seen any non-binary/genderqueer person ever get offended by singular they.

You don't talk for everyone.

In Spanish (I was brought up in a Latin American country), we are taught strictly not to use pronouns like "It" to refer to a person.

If we are taught not to call people "it" because they're not animals, why do you think it is okay to misgender a transgender person?

I thought that was like, a universal thing, at least in languages that have a pronoun for animals and inanimate objects, because I was taught the same thing in a strictly English-speaking American household.

I'm going with Gren on this one. They have rightfully looked at pronouns as central to a person's identity. For myself, my laid back nature probably won't warrant a report if you call me by a female pronoun, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the import of getting it right.

[Lockdownn]

Neut used to be a shortened version of a mods name.

Also it's Dutch for a shot of strong liquor. No negative connotations here (except for in the morning)

And yet if I tell a person not to call me Neut and they continue to do so they can be warned.

As it's a variation of your name, no.

Similar reference: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=362943

[Neutraligon]

And yet if I tell a person not to call me Neut and they continue to do so they can be warned.

As it's a variation of your name, no.

Similar reference: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=362943

That is not the same situation. That person previously went by that name, if I have not gone by the name Neut and tell you not to call me Neut you can be warned for doing so. Hell your source even supports my claim here
viewtopic.php?p=27000467#p27000467

[Forsher]

It's really very simple, don't call people things they have told you not to be called. Don't worry about this being abused to silent discussion because there's this wonderful rule called "mods as weapons". If you can't show someone being warned when they clearly didn't know... then it's probably not a problem, and, in any case, posters who are subject to "pronoun confusion" are, in my experience, very happy to note so if mispronouned* (because they understand that not everyone reads signatures).

The only problem is if someone wants you to use invented pronouns (e.g. xir). If they aren't willing to accept (i.e. report) being referred to via the singular they then they probably need to step back and rethink. This imposes an unfair burden because (a) they're invented and (b) there are seemingly dozens of different sets (ze etc.) and, as such, is phenomenologically different to asking to be referred to by existing pronouns (i.e. he, she, they**).

Misgendering also has to exist as a distinct rule (possibly as a defined subset within flaming) because this forum has time and time again shown that if there's a problem and you don't specify its illegality, sustaining the problem is viewed as a sacred entitlement.

For reference, see Karinzistan. Prior to DOS (for, among other things, mods as weapons name specification), Karinzistan was deliberately referred to as K-Bear and other strange things. This is not different to misgendering (although its baggage is bullying rather than transphobia/transgender politics) and it shows both why the rule is necessary and how the mods are intelligent enough to recognise problems (if you bring them to their attention). Slembanana provides the counter case of clear cut bullying that was fostered through an absence of reporting (possibly induced by unclear rules at the time).

There is no problem with this rule... people only report if you're told, in thread, not to use a specific pronoun and carry on anyway. That's not "oh I forgot" and it never will be.

*I reserve misgendering for intentional cases,

**"It" is only standard English with reference to very, very young infants (and, even then, maybe only is specific constructions) who are not allowed on the forum so asking to be referred to as "it" is therefore pretty much equivalent to asking to be called "xir"... and may even be akin to the Attack Helicopter.

[NERVUN]

The question is how we know if someone forgot what gender someone is or if they're deliberately misgendering. If someone told me their gender three months ago, I may not remember it now. If they told me it two minutes ago and then I say "I'll call him whatever I want" after being informed that the user identifies as female, that's clearly deliberate. But there's also some middle ground, and I'm curious whether users would be given the benefit of the doubt, and under what circumstances. Would the mods treat someone who has no history of anti-transgender statements (or perhaps even has explicitly supported trans rights) differently than someone who was known to be anti-transgender even if they have never had moderator action for such?

We do try to look at everything, yes.

My first action is to ask where the person was informed of the preferred gender. If it was 3 months back in a different thread on a different section of the forum and done in passing... I'm not likely to take action. If it was a page back and said player then quoted the post and said something akin to "That's what YOU think", that's different.

[Grenartia]

See, this is why we need to push singular "they" a little more.

That might very well be the solution. I certainly get the OPs frustration with compiling a list of people's PGPs (preferred gender pronouns), especially on a board where we're known by our nations rather than our names. Where I vehemently disagree with them is that the issue is silly or trivial. Unless people have it in their sigs, it's not easy, but pronouns are integral parts of who we are as people.

To be entirely fair, the people who care most about pronouns will actually display their PGP in their sig.

[Ethel mermania]

That might very well be the solution. I certainly get the OPs frustration with compiling a list of people's PGPs (preferred gender pronouns), especially on a board where we're known by our nations rather than our names. Where I vehemently disagree with them is that the issue is silly or trivial. Unless people have it in their sigs, it's not easy, but pronouns are integral parts of who we are as people.

To be entirely fair, the people who care most about pronouns will actually display their PGP in their sig.

While I support calling folks by the pronoun they present as, I and others do not read sigs.