[discussion] pronoun silliness

[Val Halla]

I think what this ultimately comes down to is whether or not you are a dick about it, right?

If someone posted in response to a post of mine referring to me as male, and it had not said otherwise in the post, that's understandable mistake.

If I have mentioned in said post, or in reply, that I go by female pronouns, and the other poster has gone out their way to ignore that, then it's an issue

Like if you had a friend called Richard but you call him Dick all the time despite him asking you not to, it is, at the very least, a douchebag thing to do, regardless of whether or not you agree.

douchebag, sure. but a bannable offense? Unless it was harassment or straight up trolling, i don't think someone calling me by a nickname should be warnable/bannable. Maybe douchebag-like.

I understand the preference for certain pronouns, and i would use them out of respect, but is it really such a big issue that it needs to be against the rules? That seems an extreme reaction to a very, very minor transgression.

Well it depends on context. Done it once deliberately without any warning history, you'd probably get a "knock it off". If it was a repeated offence, then yeah I suspect you would be banned for trolling.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I think what this ultimately comes down to is whether or not you are a dick about it, right?

If someone posted in response to a post of mine referring to me as male, and it had not said otherwise in the post, that's understandable mistake.

If I have mentioned in said post, or in reply, that I go by female pronouns, and the other poster has gone out their way to ignore that, then it's an issue

Like if you had a friend called Richard but you call him Dick all the time despite him asking you not to, it is, at the very least, a douchebag thing to do, regardless of whether or not you agree.

douchebag, sure. but a bannable offense? Unless it was harassment or straight up trolling, i don't think someone calling me by a nickname should be warnable/bannable. Maybe douchebag-like.

I understand the preference for certain pronouns, and i would use them out of respect, but is it really such a big issue that it needs to be against the rules? That seems an extreme reaction to a very, very minor transgression.

If it's obviously not deliberate, then it's not warnable. If it's obviously deliberate, then it is. If there's no way to tell, then we'll take a look to see if there's a history of prior issues, and take it in that context. You really, really don't have to worry about it if you're willing to correct it when you're wrong, as I did, and you're willing to try to get used to the singular "they". It's an adjustment, but it's possible.

[Giovenith]

Moderation is only requesting that if someone prefers you refer to them as he or she, you either do so or, I believe that as a compromise, use "they" if you really don't agree with it (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). And you only get in trouble if it is clear that you are misgendering someone on purpose, not if you were simply mistaken. The reason for this is because NS has a wide ban on using tactics solely designed to make someone angry and not argue a point, i.e., you're not allowed to fuck with someone like a petulant child, which going out of your way to call someone a gender they don't call themselves is. It's also no more a "bannable" offense than flaming or trolling, the only reason you would get banned on the spot for it is if it were the last strong on an already long history of bad behavior.

If someone on the forum asks, "Hey, has Giovenith posted lately? I don't see his stuff as much as I used to," the mods are not going to break through the windows and ban that guy from the site all because they happen to know that I'm a girl and that person didn't. That's not how it works. Again: You only get in trouble if you have been directly informed beforehand that a person identifies as a certain gender and you absolutely insist on calling them something else. That's all.

It's not like they're forcing you to go along with tumblr insanity pronoun crap like bun, or fae, or sprout - that's not going to happen anytime soon.

This really is not a hard or even harsh rule to follow.

[Pandeeria]

It's pretty simple. If someone tells you they're a girl, use feminine pronouns. If they say they're a guy, use masculine pronouns. The misgendering rule comes into play when someone knowingly insists on using the incorrect pronoun after they've been informed what the correct pronoun is to use, as repeatedly using the wrong pronoun serves no other purpose than to needle the target and make them angry- that is, deliberately calling someone who says they're a girl "he" and vice versa is a form of flamebaiting.

Easiest way to avoid the entire thing? The nongendered, singular "they" when you don't know for sure what to use.

What if they want you to call them one of those really weird, absurd pronouns like zie, ey, ve, tey, sie, etc.

Do we still have to abide, or is the neutral "they" still ok?

[Imperial Union of America]

douchebag, sure. but a bannable offense? Unless it was harassment or straight up trolling, i don't think someone calling me by a nickname should be warnable/bannable. Maybe douchebag-like.

I understand the preference for certain pronouns, and i would use them out of respect, but is it really such a big issue that it needs to be against the rules? That seems an extreme reaction to a very, very minor transgression.

Well it depends on context. Done it once deliberately without any warning history, you'd probably get a "knock it off". If it was a repeated offence, then yeah I suspect you would be banned for trolling.

Is it really trolling or just insisting on your idea? Is any idea contrary to the idea of transgenderism inherently trolling?

Why should transgender individuals insist on their pronouns to such a degree? For most it is an ideological position, and to say it's okay to disagree with transgenderism but enforce proper pronouns is absurd.

If you just said you were a man without stating your trans status no one would bat an eye. But it's almost trolling to say "I am MtF trans" and then require people who disagree with that position to use the "proper" pronoun. Why should your ideological opponents have to accept your position? Because that's in effect what is being enforce by moderator intervention. And it's completely unnecessary, because purposefully trolling is still against the rules.

[Giovenith]

Well it depends on context. Done it once deliberately without any warning history, you'd probably get a "knock it off". If it was a repeated offence, then yeah I suspect you would be banned for trolling.

Is it really trolling or just insisting on your idea? Is any idea contrary to the idea of transgenderism inherently trolling?

Why should transgender individuals insist on their pronouns to such a degree? For most it is an ideological position, and to say it's okay to disagree with transgenderism but enforce proper pronouns is absurd.

If you just said you were a man without stating your trans status no one would bat an eye. But it's almost trolling to say "I am MtF trans" and then require people who disagree with that position to use the "proper" pronoun. Why should your ideological opponents have to accept your position? Because that's in effect what is being enforce by moderator intervention. And it's completely unnecessary, because purposefully trolling is still against the rules.

Being transgender is not an ideology, it's a medical fact about a person's existence. They truly, genuinely feel every bit as much as their identified gender as you and I do as our biological genders, and there is nothing they can do to change it. The strain a trans person feels at being constantly mislabeled and the strain someone who continues to deny the biological fact of transgenderism against all reason feels at having to put that aside are not equivalent to one another - there is a limited point to which you are allowed to disregard the reality of a situation. "Let's agree to disagree" does not come into play when you are doing something that attacks a fundamental, unchanging aspect of another human's personhood.

To draw an inexact comparison, it's like insisting that there's no such thing as blind people and thus treating blind people as if they can see just as well as you (tossing stuff to them without verbal warning, laughing at them when they bump into something, asking them about things like colors and letters), then getting mad when people tell you to knock it off and accept that blind people do in fact need all the extra insistence they garner from their condition because, "They're forcing me to accept their ideology of blindness as a fact even though I totally disagree!"

[Ostroeuropa]

I understand that this was brought in to remove moderation headaches, but couldn't this rule have been applied selectively to topics like the transgender thread where it could be used to troll users more deliberately?

For one thing, it will derail topics to get bogged down in this discussion, or result in repeated reporting on users for expressing a belief and being unable to properly defend it without derailment.

In threads like the transgender or LGBT thread, where it is on topic, it can be articulated by one user to the other without derailment that they find misgendering hurtful, why they find it hurtful, and that they would, at least, prefer "They", etc, and at that point, it becomes much more obvious trolling.

If a person continues to misgender someone because it cannot be properly articulated to them without threadjacking why they should stop beyond what to all appearances to them seems to be a ridiculous demand to "Just stop" and "Call me she/he" and they stand up for what they consider self-evident, then that doesn't seem to me to constitute trolling.

That said, there are plenty of rules or applications of rules I find disagreeable. For the most part, we muddle on, and users learn to just deal with them and frame things more carefully. I also trust moderation to, for the most part, hand out only warnings when they feel technical breaches have occurred without much real bother to anyone. If they bother to answer the report thread. (Not a jab, cops do it too. Rules are imperfect and digression being applied is fine.)

Heavy handed moderation, especially on an issue currently being debated internationally is in no ones interests.

I would ask however whether this rule opens the door to stuff like people accusing others of trolling for calling them certain political ideologies they don't identify as.

[USS Monitor]

I would ask however whether this rule opens the door to stuff like people accusing others of trolling for calling them certain political ideologies they don't identify as.

If it was extremely persistent, despite being corrected and asked to stop, that could constitute flamebait.

[Imperial Union of America]

I would ask however whether this rule opens the door to stuff like people accusing others of trolling for calling them certain political ideologies they don't identify as.

If it was extremely persistent, despite being corrected and asked to stop, that could constitute flamebait.

That is how we should treat 'misgendering.' If someone makes a point of it and goes out of his way to troll, that's one thing.

Is it really trolling or just insisting on your idea? Is any idea contrary to the idea of transgenderism inherently trolling?

Why should transgender individuals insist on their pronouns to such a degree? For most it is an ideological position, and to say it's okay to disagree with transgenderism but enforce proper pronouns is absurd.

If you just said you were a man without stating your trans status no one would bat an eye. But it's almost trolling to say "I am MtF trans" and then require people who disagree with that position to use the "proper" pronoun. Why should your ideological opponents have to accept your position? Because that's in effect what is being enforce by moderator intervention. And it's completely unnecessary, because purposefully trolling is still against the rules.

Being transgender is not an ideology, it's a medical fact about a person's existence. They truly, genuinely feel every bit as much as their identified gender as you and I do as our biological genders, and there is nothing they can do to change it. The strain a trans person feels at being constantly mislabeled and the strain someone who continues to deny the biological fact of transgenderism against all reason feels at having to put that aside are not equivalent to one another - there is a limited point to which you are allowed to disregard the reality of a situation. "Let's agree to disagree" does not come into play when you are doing something that attacks a fundamental, unchanging aspect of another human's personhood.

To draw an inexact comparison, it's like insisting that there's no such thing as blind people and thus treating blind people as if they can see just as well as you (tossing stuff to them without verbal warning, laughing at them when they bump into something, asking them about things like colors and letters), then getting mad when people tell you to knock it off and accept that blind people do in fact need all the extra insistence they garner from their condition because, "They're forcing me to accept their ideology of blindness as a fact even though I totally disagree!"

I don't think you're attacking someones personhood. You're not denying someone is a person if you deny the existence of their trans status. People deny homosexuality and climate change all the time, both scientific facts. Those are not inherently bannable offenses regardless of how offensive they are.

Why do transgender people get extra super serial special protection and why do people have to be forced to accept scientific facts they disagree with?

i feel constant strain everytime someone disagrees with my fundamental beliefs, but i don't expect them to get banned/warned for it. Being transgender is not a fundamental block of being a person, and is no more fundamental than say, being homosexual or liking the colour blue.

But comparing transgender people to the blind is absurd. being transgender is not a disability. and in any case, it's not a medical situation, but a psychological one.

[Ostroeuropa]

I would ask however whether this rule opens the door to stuff like people accusing others of trolling for calling them certain political ideologies they don't identify as.

If it was extremely persistent, despite being corrected and asked to stop, that could constitute flamebait.

At the risk of throwing you a lemon, does this mean many feminists are flamebaiting when they say everyone who supports equality is a feminist?
Schaudenfreud aside, i'm not particularly keen on this kind of development.

[Ostroeuropa]

My point on the feminist comparison is that I think this kind of thing will ultimately stifle the expression of political views.
The persistent expression of a political view is not, so far as I can see, trolling.

If it is your understanding that certain beliefs, actions, outlooks etc means someone Is An X, then that should be allowable to express and argue for.
Similarly, the trans thing is along similar lines.

You've essentially said that fundamental tenets of several worldviews constitute flaming if persistently expressed, i'm not comfortable with that. I doubt moderation is either, and I doubt it would be applied that way. Just that moderation should probably consider a clarification of these things.

[Reploid Productions]

What if they want you to call them one of those really weird, absurd pronouns like zie, ey, ve, tey, sie, etc.

Do we still have to abide, or is the neutral "they" still ok?

At that point, it's a case of tough cookies, as aside from the neutral "they", there is not a commonly known or widespread pronoun in use for third/nonbinary gender. Maybe not an ideal compromise, but "He, she, or they" is the most reasonable arrangement available from a fairness and enforcement standpoint.

[Giovenith]

I don't think you're attacking someones personhood. You're not denying someone is a person if you deny the existence of their trans status.

It's also not about denying that someone is a person, it's denying a huge and very important aspect of their person. Somebody's gender is not just some casual pin they wear on themselves that they're cool with stuffing away on someone else's whim. I know you sit here and say, "But it doesn't bother me when someone calls me something else," but that is because you are not being constantly subjected to that kind of denial from others both online and in real life. It doesn't bother you because you don't actually have to worry about being sincerely treated as if you were the opposite sex despite knowing damn well what you are on any sort of regular basis. I guarantee, you would not be so dismissive of the issue if you were, it becomes very insanity-inducing very quickly.

People deny homosexuality and climate change all the time, both scientific facts. Those are not inherently bannable offenses regardless of how offensive they are.

Why do transgender people get extra super serial special protection and why do people have to be forced to accept scientific facts they disagree with?

People who disagree with the science behind homosexuality and climate change are just as bound to certain limits about how they can act upon their beliefs. You're allowed to deny climate change, but you're not allowed to teach that climate change is a lie in say, in a public school classroom. You're allowed to deny that homosexuality is not a choice, but based on where you live, you may not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of that belief because the law nonetheless accepts that being gay is just as an ingrained aspect as race or sex. When it comes to certain beliefs, the right to have a belief does not necessarily guarantee you the right to act in accordance with those beliefs.

When it comes to trans people on NS, you're allowed to disagree with the science behind transgenderism but you're not allowed to misgender people based on it because we understand the magnitude that doing so has on trans people, thus it is considered a personal insult, which are banned.

i feel constant strain everytime someone disagrees with my fundamental beliefs, but i don't expect them to get banned/warned for it. Being transgender is not a fundamental block of being a person, and is no more fundamental than say, being homosexual or liking the colour blue.

But comparing transgender people to the blind is absurd. being transgender is not a disability. and in any case, it's not a medical situation, but a psychological one.

Psychology is a branch of medicine. The mind is not some ethereal, subjective force, it is a manifestation of the tissue in your skull known as the brain. The state of your mind and the way your brain works is every bit a part of your physical health as anything else, because that's what the brain is, a physical organ. Transgenderism in particular has a lot to do with the physical make-up and shape of the brain, though that's a bit off-subject.

And of course it's not a disability. You're missing the point. The point is that it is an objective, unchanging fact about the person, so comparing it to an "ideology" so that telling people to call them by their chosen pronouns is equivalent to "forcing one side's opinion on the other" is ridiculous. It is not equivalent to "liking to color blue" or believing in Communism - those things are not unchanging physical facts about you, it is not anyone's "opinion" that they are trans, they just are, just like it's not someone's "opinion" that they are blind, they just are. These are not things that go away with some extra thought considered, they are what they are, and thus if these people are to be treated with dignity, these things have to be taken into account whether somebody understands why or not, because the consequences of denying reality in practice vastly outweigh those of not giving everyone's thoughts on an issue the same degree of validity.

[Risottia]

I understand and respect the rules and moderators -- or atleast i try to -- but this pronoun thing is ridiculous.
I mean, i use male pronouns generally to refer to anyone, unless they have an obviously female name.

I tend to do the same, but if someone states clearly a preferred pronoun, I would tend to use it.

I've been referred to as 'ma'am' or 'her', but i am comfortable with who i am, so i do not expect others who can not see me to assume my gender and conform to my preferred pronouns.

Same, I've been referred to as a woman while being a man, but frankly I don't give a fuck. Other people do, though. Especially genderqueer people - for whom gender is, of course, a rather sensitive issue.

Why does such a rule exist? Why such an insistence on it? I've never been on a site before that had pronoun requirements.

Since some posters declare rather clearly they have a preferred pronoun, deliberately refusing to use it is often a tool to attack them in a underhanded way.

[Imperial Union of America]

I don't think you're attacking someones personhood. You're not denying someone is a person if you deny the existence of their trans status.

It's also not about denying that someone is a person, it's denying a huge and very important aspect of their person. Somebody's gender is not just some casual pin they wear on themselves that they're cool with stuffing away on someone else's whim. I know you sit here and say, "But it doesn't bother me when someone calls me something else," but that is because you are not being constantly subjected to that kind of denial from others both online and in real life. It doesn't bother you because you don't actually have to worry about being sincerely treated as if you were the opposite sex despite knowing damn well what you are on any sort of regular basis. I guarantee, you would not be so dismissive of the issue if you were, it becomes very insanity-inducing very quickly.

People deny homosexuality and climate change all the time, both scientific facts. Those are not inherently bannable offenses regardless of how offensive they are.

Why do transgender people get extra super serial special protection and why do people have to be forced to accept scientific facts they disagree with?

People who disagree with the science behind homosexuality and climate change are just as bound to certain limits about how they can act upon their beliefs. You're allowed to deny climate change, but you're not allowed to teach that climate change is a lie in say, in a public school classroom. You're allowed to deny that homosexuality is not a choice, but based on where you live, you may not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of that belief because the law nonetheless accepts that being gay is just as an ingrained aspect as race or sex. When it comes to certain beliefs, the right to have a belief does not necessarily guarantee you the right to act in accordance with those beliefs.

When it comes to trans people on NS, you're allowed to disagree with the science behind transgenderism but you're not allowed to misgender people based on it because we understand the magnitude that doing so has on trans people, thus it is considered a personal insult, which are banned.

i feel constant strain everytime someone disagrees with my fundamental beliefs, but i don't expect them to get banned/warned for it. Being transgender is not a fundamental block of being a person, and is no more fundamental than say, being homosexual or liking the colour blue.

But comparing transgender people to the blind is absurd. being transgender is not a disability. and in any case, it's not a medical situation, but a psychological one.

Psychology is a branch of medicine. The mind is not some ethereal, subjective force, it is a manifestation of the tissue in your skull known as the brain. The state of your mind and the way your brain works is every bit a part of your physical health as anything else, because that's what the brain is, a physical organ. Transgenderism in particular has a lot to do with the physical make-up and shape of the brain, though that's a bit off-subject.

And of course it's not a disability. You're missing the point. The point is that it is an objective, unchanging fact about the person, so comparing it to an "ideology" so that telling people to call them by their chosen pronouns is equivalent to "forcing one side's opinion on the other" is ridiculous. It is not equivalent to "liking to color blue" or believing in Communism - those things are not unchanging physical facts about you, it is not anyone's "opinion" that they are trans, they just are, just like it's not someone's "opinion" that they are blind, they just are. These are not things that go away with some extra thought considered, they are what they are, and thus if these people are to be treated with dignity, these things have to be taken into account whether somebody understands why or not, because the consequences of denying reality in practice vastly outweigh those of not giving everyone's thoughts on an issue the same degree of validity.

The fact remains, i can not declare myself an alien and that my extraterrestrial pronouns are zie and ze and require people to follow it. You declare yourself trans and then require everyone to use your preferred pronoun or be punished for it. but if you just said, "I am a man" or "I am a woman" it wouldn't be an issue. But you're declaring yourself trans and requiring people to accept it, even if they disagree with it.

This is a forum. We debate things here, we disagree with things here. you can't expect people to agree with you or your lifestyle. If you really are a man or a woman, then you must accept it about yourself. You must be very insecure about your gender status if someone 'mis-gendering' is a problem for you. If someone misgenders me, i laugh it off. Because i am an adult. If someone is not respectful of me, i ignore it or i ignore them.

You have a thread about discussing transgenderism but anyone who disagrees with you is pretty much floating the line of what is acceptable. When you make transgenderism an essential part of yourself instead of a status, it becomes harder to discuss because you shut out opposing opinions.

Being transgender isn't who you are, right? It's what you are.

I am a man. I am not defined by my manhood, i just am. My hair is blonde, does that make being blonde-haired a part of myself? No. It is, but that's not how i define myself as a person. Male or female is a description of physical attributes.

If you are so sensitive about your trans status, then don't disclose it. If someone 'misgenders', it's not that big of a deal. You have to learn that in the real world, people will disagree with you and say things that you don't like. You can't expect people to shelter you from opposing opinions. I understand the trans discussion thread is a safe space, fine. But the blanket ban on misgendering is silly. i don't believe the rules should enforce politically correct pronouns on people.

I mean, what is this, Nationstates, where we're free to disagree and converse our political and religious ideas according to the dictates of Max? Or is this Jezebel, where we most coddle every disaffected trans teen that gets offended by people who disagree with scientific reality? I understand protecting people from being abused, personally insulted and flamed, but misgendering is not any of those.

I understand and respect the rules and moderators -- or atleast i try to -- but this pronoun thing is ridiculous.
I mean, i use male pronouns generally to refer to anyone, unless they have an obviously female name.

I tend to do the same, but if someone states clearly a preferred pronoun, I would tend to use it.

I've been referred to as 'ma'am' or 'her', but i am comfortable with who i am, so i do not expect others who can not see me to assume my gender and conform to my preferred pronouns.

Same, I've been referred to as a woman while being a man, but frankly I don't give a fuck. Other people do, though. Especially genderqueer people - for whom gender is, of course, a rather sensitive issue.

Why does such a rule exist? Why such an insistence on it? I've never been on a site before that had pronoun requirements.

Since some posters declare rather clearly they have a preferred pronoun, deliberately refusing to use it is often a tool to attack them in a underhanded way.

Thats the thing, the average person does not give a fuck about the whole pronoun thing. It is a vocal minority hoisting their feelings onto everyone else. I'm sorry if you're trans/genderqueer and you have a rough life, but people have a right to disagree with you and enforcing scientific reality shouldn't be enforced by dictate.

Trolling and flaming should still be against the rules, of course, i don't dispute that at all.
but if pronouns offend you that much, you should probably just grow up a bit. It's ignorant, but requiring proper pronouns is absurd.

[Giovenith]

The fact remains, i can not declare myself an alien and that my extraterrestrial pronouns are zie and ze and require people to follow it.

False equivalence.

You declare yourself trans and then require everyone to use your preferred pronoun or be punished for it. but if you just said, "I am a man" or "I am a woman" it wouldn't be an issue. But you're declaring yourself trans and requiring people to accept it, even if they disagree with it.

This is a forum. We debate things here, we disagree with things here. you can't expect people to agree with you or your lifestyle. If you really are a man or a woman, then you must accept it about yourself. You must be very insecure about your gender status if someone 'mis-gendering' is a problem for you. If someone misgenders me, i laugh it off. Because i am an adult. If someone is not respectful of me, i ignore it or i ignore them.

You can also debate whether or not the Holocaust really happened, that doesn't mean you get to declare someone whose grandfather is a Holocaust survivor is a phony liar who just made all those stories he heard up in order to get sympathy from the government. You get to debate ideas, you don't get to debate the nature of a users' person.

And no, you laugh it off because you can rest easy knowing that the entire rest of the world see's you clearly for what you are and will treat you as such 99.99999999% of the time so that one person who didn't doesn't matter. You don't care that jimmybob192 called you a girl in a chatroom last night because your parents still call you boy, your grandparents still call you a boy, your aunts and uncles still call you a boy, your friends still call you a boy, your classmates still call you a boy, your neighbors still call you a boy, your boss still calls you a boy, your coworkers still call you a boy, the guy at the register still calls you a boy, the guy next to you on the bus still calls you a boy, your waitress still calls you a boy, everyone on the street still calls you a boy, your insurance company still calls you a boy, the government still calls you a boy. You don't feel the need to lose sleep over jimmybob192 because the rest of the world is on your side and you can turn to it. For many trans people, not so much.

You're essentially doing the equivalent of telling a flood victim to "laugh it off" because that's what you do whenever someone sprays you with the garden hose, or a victim of emotional parental abuse to "laugh it off" because that's what you do whenever someone calls you an idiot. You're sitting there declaring that you have no pressure dealing with a problem that you've never actually dealt with because you apparently have no concept of proportion.

You have a thread about discussing transgenderism but anyone who disagrees with you is pretty much floating the line of what is acceptable. When you make transgenderism an essential part of yourself instead of a status, it becomes harder to discuss because you shut out opposing opinions.

Being transgender isn't who you are, right? It's what you are.

I am a man. I am not defined by my manhood, i just am.

Somehow I doubt you'd feel that way if you were suddenly forced to wear a dress and answer to "Felicia" for the rest of your life.

If you are so sensitive about your trans status, then don't disclose it.

Yeah, let's just reinforce transgenderism's status as "shameful" and "abnormal" by shoving it into the shadows!

If someone 'misgenders', it's not that big of a deal.

Again, that is not something that you have ever been in a position to decide.

You have to learn that in the real world, people will disagree with you and say things that you don't like. You can't expect people to shelter you from opposing opinions. I understand the trans discussion thread is a safe space, fine. But the blanket ban on misgendering is silly. i don't believe the rules should enforce politically correct pronouns on people.

Again, you get to debate ideas, you don't get to debate the nature of a users' person. You can deny the Holocaust but you can't call Holocaust survivors or their relatives "liars."

I mean, what is this, Nationstates, where we're free to disagree and converse our political and religious ideas according to the dictates of Max? Or is this Jezebel, where we most coddle every disaffected trans teen that gets offended by people who disagree with scientific reality? I understand protecting people from being abused, personally insulted and flamed, but misgendering is not any of those.

It's NationStates, where you have never been allowed to make unwelcome declarations about the kind of person someone is and never will be. And again, you are not in any position to be making declarations about how insulting being misgendered is for aforementioned reasons. I encourage you to hop off this arrogant train of thought where you somehow know exactly what it feels like to deal with trans' issues despite not even being trans and, now this may sound crazy, ask transgender people what their lives are actually like and how it effects them instead of projecting your nonequivalent experiences onto theirs and declaring, "If it's fine for me, it's fine for everyone!"

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Moderation is only requesting that if someone prefers you refer to them as he or she, you either do so or, I believe that as a compromise, use "they" if you really don't agree with it (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). And you only get in trouble if it is clear that you are misgendering someone on purpose, not if you were simply mistaken. The reason for this is because NS has a wide ban on using tactics solely designed to make someone angry and not argue a point, i.e., you're not allowed to fuck with someone like a petulant child, which going out of your way to call someone a gender they don't call themselves is. It's also no more a "bannable" offense than flaming or trolling, the only reason you would get banned on the spot for it is if it were the last strong on an already long history of bad behavior.

If someone on the forum asks, "Hey, has Giovenith posted lately? I don't see his stuff as much as I used to," the mods are not going to break through the windows and ban that guy from the site all because they happen to know that I'm a girl and that person didn't. That's not how it works. Again: You only get in trouble if you have been directly informed beforehand that a person identifies as a certain gender and you absolutely insist on calling them something else. That's all.

It's not like they're forcing you to go along with tumblr insanity pronoun crap like bun, or fae, or sprout - that's not going to happen anytime soon.

This really is not a hard or even harsh rule to follow.

I just learned of this today with this post... I've seen you in this forum for many years and I kept being confused because some people treat you as "he" and others treat you as "she".

It's good to know for reference.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Thats the thing, the average person does not give a fuck about the whole pronoun thing.

You don't talk for everyone.

In Spanish (I was brought up in a Latin American country), we are taught strictly not to use pronouns like "It" to refer to a person.

If we are taught not to call people "it" because they're not animals, why do you think it is okay to misgender a transgender person?

[Imperial Union of America]

False equivalence.

No, it's not. The idea is the same; forcing people to do something they fundamentally disagree with.

You can also debate whether or not the Holocaust really happened, that doesn't mean you get to declare someone whose grandfather is a Holocaust survivor is a phony liar who just made all those stories he heard up in order to get sympathy from the government. You get to debate ideas, you don't get to debate the nature of a users' person.

What do you think happens when someone is saying they don't agree with transgenderism? They're basically saying the same thing, and if you declare yourself trans openly, then they are basically saying that you are not a woman. The only difference is that you're basically saying 'i'm trans and you have to accept that i am really a woman even if you disagree with me by using my preferred pronouns'.

If i deny transgenderism, fundamentally i'm still debating the nature of a user's gender. Your person isn't defined by your gender.

per·son·hood
ˈpərs(ə)nˌho͝od/
noun
the quality or condition of being an individual person.

per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.

As you can clearly see, 'transgender' is not mentioned in the definition of personhood. No one is denying your individuality or humanity by denying the gender you identify with.

And no, you laugh it off because you can rest easy knowing that the entire rest of the world see's you clearly for what you are and will treat you as such 99.99999999% of the time so that one person who didn't doesn't matter. You don't care that jimmybob192 called you a girl in a chatroom last night because your parents still call you boy, your grandparents still call you a boy, your aunts and uncles still call you a boy, your friends still call you a boy, your classmates still call you a boy, your neighbors still call you a boy, your boss still calls you a boy, your coworkers still call you a boy, the guy at the register still calls you a boy, the guy next to you on the bus still calls you a boy, your waitress still calls you a boy, everyone on the street still calls you a boy, your insurance company still calls you a boy, the government still calls you a boy. You don't feel the need to lose sleep over jimmybob192 because the rest of the world is on your side and you can turn to it. For many trans people, not so much.

That's true. But if you present yourself as a woman and have been fully transformed, then no one has any reason to doubt your womanhood unless you tell them that you are trans. 99% of humanity believes that there are only two genders -- male and female. You are born one and stuck with it. It sucks that so many are ignorant of the science, but you can't put your minority expectations on all of society. Transgender people are only between 0.2~0.3% of the population. so for 99.7-99.8% of the time, with the exception of the between 0.5~1.7% that are intersex, they're correct.

You're essentially doing the equivalent of telling a flood victim to "laugh it off" because that's what you do whenever someone sprays you with the garden hose, or a victim of emotional parental abuse to "laugh it off" because that's what you do whenever someone calls you an idiot. You're sitting there declaring that you have no pressure dealing with a problem that you've never actually dealt with because you apparently have no concept of proportion.

If i went around informing people i'm really a woman on the inside, i'd probably get that exact same response. This is reality. Educate people and accept that for a large number of people, they're never going to agree with you on that.

Somehow I doubt you'd feel that way if you were suddenly forced to wear a dress and answer to "Felicia" for the rest of your life.

Yeah, but then i would be biased on the subject. I would never go into a situation where i expected other people to accept how i felt about a situation, though. I expect that if i had tits and a vagina, and my name was felicia and i wore a dress, that i would be a woman. regardless of how i felt about the situation. and i expect that other people would see and refer to me as such.

let's just reinforce transgenderism's status as "shameful" and "abnormal" by shoving it into the shadows!

That's not what i said. You can be open about your trans status, but you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with your position or force everyone to refer to you how you'd like. If you just want a safe space, fine. But I don't think Max intended to create a safe space for trans people. I think he created a site so that we could debate our opposing opinions with civility. Forcing other people to use preferred pronouns while declaring yourself 'trans' is basically forcing people to agree with your premise.

If someone 'misgenders', it's not that big of a deal.

Again, that is not something that you have ever been in a position to decide.

Uhh. I'm a man. If someone calls me a woman, i can have a right to feel irritated or annoyed by that. But i'm not. What makes trans people so special that they get extra protections here that other groups do not?

Again, you get to debate ideas, you don't get to debate the nature of a users' person. You can deny the Holocaust but you can't call Holocaust survivors or their relatives "liars."

Yeah, but when you deny the Holocaust, that's basically what you're doing. No, you can't directly say that. But it's not like you are forcing people to accept the premise that they are not liars -- basically, that would be forcing people to accept your premise that the holocaust happened in the first place. Even if you would not directly call someone a liar. Also, i don't think calling someone a man or a woman contrary to scientific evidence is trolling in the sense that being a man instead of a woman is not the same as being a liar. If someone denies your gender status, they're not saying something inherently bad about you.

It's NationStates, where you have never been allowed to make unwelcome declarations about the kind of person someone is and never will be. And again, you are not in any position to be making declarations about how insulting being misgendered is for aforementioned reasons. I encourage you to hop off this arrogant train of thought where you somehow know exactly what it feels like to deal with trans' issues despite not even being trans and, now this may sound crazy, ask transgender people what their lives are actually like and how it effects them instead of projecting your nonequivalent experiences onto theirs and declaring, "If it's fine for me, it's fine for everyone!"

And are you in a position to tell me what pronouns i must use? To tell the moderators they must ban people who do not use the pronouns you prefer?

I encourage you to hop of the entitlement train. I'm sorry your life is so rough, and their is a thread on this forum that is a trans safe space. certain individuals may be sensitive to such pronoun nonsense, but the general public is not. The rules provide that trolling and flaming are not permitted, and that's sufficient. being irritated by someone elses pronoun is not a sufficient reason to make it inherently actionable.

If you declare that you are trans, and that one must refer to you as a woman, i don't think that's a reasonable expectation when you know that individual disagrees with transexualism. you must expect people will disagree with you.

[NERVUN]

We are getting well off the train of rules debate.

Let's get back on track, that means not debating transexualism (This not being NSG).

I will reopen at the hour to make sure all parties understand this message.

Edit: Thread re-opened. Please stick to the rule in question.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And are you in a position to tell me what pronouns i must use? To tell the moderators they must ban people who do not use the pronouns you prefer?

I encourage you to hop of the entitlement train. I'm sorry your life is so rough, and their is a thread on this forum that is a trans safe space. certain individuals may be sensitive to such pronoun nonsense, but the general public is not. The rules provide that trolling and flaming are not permitted, and that's sufficient. being irritated by someone elses pronoun is not a sufficient reason to make it inherently actionable.

If you declare that you are trans, and that one must refer to you as a woman, i don't think that's a reasonable expectation when you know that individual disagrees with transexualism. you must expect people will disagree with you.

I don't understand this logic to the ruling.

The reason why it is trolling is because, if you are told "please address me as a woman" and yet you do not, you are deliberately looking to stir shit, which is trolling.

We can disagree on issues, I just don't think that in a forum where we're expected to be respectful to one another that shit-stirring is okay when it is basically the textbook definition of trolling.

Just because you disagree vehemently with someone isn't a reason to treat them like shit, at least in the context of rulings in this site. If I had it my way, I'd be more brazen, but I have to work, too, within the rules.

[Imperial Union of America]

And are you in a position to tell me what pronouns i must use? To tell the moderators they must ban people who do not use the pronouns you prefer?

I encourage you to hop of the entitlement train. I'm sorry your life is so rough, and their is a thread on this forum that is a trans safe space. certain individuals may be sensitive to such pronoun nonsense, but the general public is not. The rules provide that trolling and flaming are not permitted, and that's sufficient. being irritated by someone elses pronoun is not a sufficient reason to make it inherently actionable.

If you declare that you are trans, and that one must refer to you as a woman, i don't think that's a reasonable expectation when you know that individual disagrees with transexualism. you must expect people will disagree with you.

I don't understand this logic to the ruling.

The reason why it is trolling is because, if you are told "please address me as a woman" and yet you do not, you are deliberately looking to stir shit, which is trolling.

We can disagree on issues, I just don't think that in a forum where we're expected to be respectful to one another that shit-stirring is okay when it is basically the textbook definition of trolling.

Just because you disagree vehemently with someone isn't a reason to treat them like shit, at least in the context of rulings in this site. If I had it my way, I'd be more brazen, but I have to work, too, within the rules.

Sure, but the rules need not be arbitrary. the rules exist to maintain decorum, so we should debate the rule in the context of what is necessary and what is in the best interest of the site within max's intention.

I think it would be fine to roll purposeful misgendering into the definition of trolling, but to make it a separate rule is unnecessary. I think tone and intention are more important than that. I think it's possible to misgender someone while otherwise being generally respectful. I think , in this site in particular, that the vast majority of users(at least 3/4 of people around here) will back someone up on their trans beliefs. but that doesn't mean we should force 1/4 of the people to accept it or agree with it and force pronouns on them.

What do you do when someone denies the holocaust and you do not like it? You either debate them or ignore them. If someone is misgendering you(while being otherwise respectful in tone), there is an ignore button and it exists for that specific reason.

Not just that, it's also a tool for abuse, as well. the vast majority of people on planet earth believe there are only 2 genders. It's very easy to find someone who disagrees with you and try to use that to have mods punish your opponents, while basically forcing them to accept the premise of transsexuality.

Transsexuals see being told they're the gender of their birth as some sort of personal attack, and i understand that, but if we're debating transsexualism, that's unavoidable if you want to tolerate any sort of dissent on this issue.

It's one thing to misgender someone to make a point that you disagree with transsexualism, it's another thing to potentially hit innocent people with warnings/bans for unintentional or thoughtless 'misgendering' people. People have been reported for simply using common terms like 'dude' and so on. this language police thing is silly. you're expecting the mods to read people's minds on the subject. it's hard to say what is actually deliberate anyway, unless they're otherwise trolling.

You can respect people and have a decent debate on these forums without accepting the premise of someones transsexual status. It's certainly rude, but i don't think it should be actionable, unless it hits the traditional 'trolling/flamebaiting' definitions.

[USS Monitor]

If it was extremely persistent, despite being corrected and asked to stop, that could constitute flamebait.

At the risk of throwing you a lemon, does this mean many feminists are flamebaiting when they say everyone who supports equality is a feminist?
Schaudenfreud aside, i'm not particularly keen on this kind of development.

That would usually not be flamebaiting because it's usually not done for the purpose of provoking people. I was thinking more along the lines of calling someone a Nazi when they are clearly a left-libertarian, or calling someone a communist when they are a Reagan-style Republican, where "Nazi" and "communist" are meant as perjoratives.

The difference is that feminists who say egalitarianism is feminism are typically trying to convince people to adopt the feminist label, they don't mean it as a perjorative, and they sincerely believe those people are feminists. If it's intended to actually argue a point or trying to recruit people to a movement, that's not flamebait.

Similarly, telling a Bernie Sanders supporter that identifies as "socialist" because Bernie did, "No, you're a capitalist because you said you believed in this, that, and the other capitalist things," is also acceptable.

It's just if you're using the inaccurate ideological label for pointless taunting that it's a problem.

[Souseiseki]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations. would they need to grow a thicker skin or is there a rough threshold of how angry it needs to make them before it becomes actionable? does our intent matter?

[Imperial Union of America]

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations.

Maybe i should start demanding female pronouns for teh lulz

but that would probably get me whacked for trolling