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[Formal Petition] Proposal For Rules Changes

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Mega City 5
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[Formal Petition] Proposal For Rules Changes

Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:01 pm

Caveats:

1. If this is not the appropriate forum for this thread, I ask that it be moved to the appropriate forum and reviewed by the appropriate mods, admins, etc.

2. This thread is not a request for an appeal of a moderator ruling. Any moderator rulings mentioned in this thread are solely for evidential support for the need of the changes I am proposing.

Proemium:

The NationStates website advertises itself as a politically neutral site wherein any number of opinions may be expressed, so long as they do not fall under a given set of prohibited categories, namely, and I quote from the FAQ ( http://www.nationstates.net/page=faq ): "Any content that is: obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory, spam." In explanation of the ban on malicious content, we read ( https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopi ... 6&t=217052 ) that what is prohibited is "The "malicious" category includes material that a reasonable person would believe endorses or celebrates violence against real-life people." I'll assume, of course, that "defamatory" shall be understood according to the legal sense. Note that for a defamation claim to stick, the one defaming must: 1. be speaking falsely, 2. believe that he is speaking falsely (in order for defamation simply to occur) 3. cause an actual concrete loss to the person being defamed (in order for there to be a defamation case).

The same FAQ mentioned previously guarantees me the right to say whatever I want, so long as what I say doesn't fall under any of those restricted categories. I quote:

"What can I post?

You can discuss and argue about almost anything, so long as it's vaguely relevant to politics or NationStates and doesn't fall into any of the categories below. You don't have to be politically correct, but you must maintain a minimum standard of behavior."

In the rules section (viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044 ) furthermore, we are told, and I quote:

"Note on Mod Oppression and Mod Bias: NationStates moderation is based on acting against rule-breaking in the games and the forums. Political opinions do not factor into official decisions by moderators. We make our rulings and interpretations as official representatives of NationStates, and are acting in the name of Max Barry. Our only agenda is RULES ENFORCEMENT. All viewpoints are acceptable so long as they are argued within the rules."

The apolitical and neutral nature of moderation activity, furthermore, is further emphasized in the explanations of appeals proceedings.

In sum, I wish to stress this fact: Nationstates advertises itself as a site in which free speech is actively protected, on an apolitical, unbiased and neutral basis, so long as the speech doesn't fall under the list of prohibited categories of speech (of which, I can only assume, the further rules are mere elaborations).

PROBLEM:


In point of fact, however, the moderators do not actually govern the site on this basis. There is a clear liberal bias, if not in intent, then definitely in impact. I wish to call attention to the fact that in the Orlando Shooting thread which was trawled, it was the anti-Muslim, anti-immigration conservatives in the thread who received the harshest and most penalties, whereas the liberals received the lightest and fewest punishments.

This is not an isolated incident. I have been banned for saying that if sex and gender are the same, then transgendered persons are mentally deranged. I have received a warning or worse for asserting that transgendered persons who do not reveal their birth-sex to their sexual partners are, in effect, committing rape. I have received a ban for endorsing US acts of war against nations which facilitate terrorism.

Say what you want, but the protection of my free-speech rights advertised by this site have not been protected, simply because I happened to express views which other people found offensive, or else, I expressed these views in a way which people deemed (though was not expressed for the sake of being) offensive, which is precisely what the Nation-States FAQ, rules section, etc. guarantee protections against.

The simple fact, furthermore, is that the problem does not lie merely with the bias of the predominately liberal moderation team which seem to have heavy "SJW" leanings (I apologize for the use of the term; I use it simply for lack of a better one), but with an expanded ruleset which lends itself, if not to actual liberal moderator abuse/censorship, then at least to the occasion and appearance of liberal moderator abuse/censorship.

And if you examine the previous moderator actions, you will find, I am sure, a disproportionate impact on conservative posters.

The simple fact is, moderators, if your site advertises apolitical, unbiased moderation and gaurantees me the right to say whatever I want within the given limitations, then I have every right to expect a moderation team, a rule-set, etc. which facilitates that.

In fact, what we are actually faced with is rampant liberal bias and an a priori prejudice against conservative points of view facilitated/build into the very ruleset itself.

Therefore, I propose:

1. That the rule against advocating death be deleted and replaced with "You will not make death threats or incite, or otherwise, encourage anyone to illegal acts of homicide (including, but not limited to, suicide).

As it stands, the rule against advocating death is:

i. Prejudicial against conservative points of view (which may include advocacy of such things as the death penalty, acts of war, justified use of lethal force both by policemen (in carrying out their duties) and private citizens (in self-defense).

and

ii. Unequally enforced. Last I checked, persons who are "pro-choice" (i.e., advocate, from the conservative point of view, the killing/death of unborn persons) are not actively censored by the moderation team.

If you answer 2, moderators, by saying that unborn persons are not actually persons, and, therefore, the advocating death rule does not apply, then you only reveal your own biases and your inability to carry out your moderator duties in a fair, unbiased and a-political manner.

Again, mods, when's the last time you banned a liberal for expressing support for euthanasia/physician assisted suicide?

You haven't? "And it's OK because that's OK?"

Once again, you reveal your own biases and inability to do what you're supposed to be doing.

Therefore, the advocating death rule itself, given the internal logic of what this site gaurantees (a-political moderation), must be stricken down.

2. The rule against trolling must be stricken from the ruleset.

i. This rule is used as a "catch all" excuse by the moderation team to ban people who say things deemed offensive to them and to the (liberal) NSG community. I quote the moderator who relatively recently ruled against me:

"If you want to make those comments which you believe are perfectly fine, then I suggest finding a forum of like-minded people who will applaud them."

IN OTHER WORDS:

"I don't like what you are saying. Stop saying things I don't like!"

The rule against trolling often is used (at least against me), not to censor speech whose only aim is to offend, but to censor any speech which is found offensive, which the FAQ specifically tells me should not be happening:

"People get offended at different things, so first make sure it falls into one of the above categories. If it does, please report it to the game moderators using the Getting Help page, or if it's in the forums, to the Moderation forum."

Again:

"You do not have to be politically correct."

2. This rule is not and cannot be applied fairly by a biased, liberal moderation team. What's considered offensive is relative to different sets of people. What a "SJW" (again, sorry for the term, but I don't know of a better one) finds offensive will be different from what a Muslim finds offensive will be different from what a Christian finds offensive.

I find it offensive when liberals dehumanize unborn persons by calling them "parasites" and "blobs of cells," when atheists make one-line posts in a thread to the effect of "God doesn't exist, lol," etc.

But those things are not censored by the mods.

The moderator use of the trolling rule reflects their own liberal presuppositions and points of view. And even if they didn't, once again, the rule presents the APPEARANCE of bias/conflicts of interest. Giving the moderators the ability to give out bans for what they personally deem offensive gives at least the APPEARANCE of moderator bias against conservatives and in favor of liberals, and even the mere appearance is unacceptable.

3. The structure of the rule itself, as commonly quoted (i.e., saying that all x's are y's) is de iure prejudicial against any number of political or ideological beliefs, namely, those which take the form of a universal affirmative propositions. Why shouldn't I be able to express such opinions? Are all universal affirmative propositions false? Take a controversial one: "All transgendered persons suffer from a mental disorder." You very well might find that offensive. But the simple fact is that, if liberals are wrong and conservatives are correct (i.e., in saying that transgenderism is a mental disorder), it's a true universal affirmative proposition.

Again, why should there be a rule against my saying and giving arguments in favor of the proposition all Muslims, insofar as Muslims, cannot be good western citizens?

You'll answer that it's offensive, and I'll respond with arguments for the truth of the proposition. Some truths take the form of a universal affirmative proposition. Some true universal affirmative propositions are truths to which some people take offense.

Again, why shouldn't I be able to say that the State should put all persons guilty of serial murder to death?

Why should I be prevented, from the get go, from expressing such beliefs? The FAQ explicitly gives me permission to do so.

In fact, if you read the actual rule, the intent of the rule is perfectly clear:

"like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example."

The original intent of that rule obviously was not to censor all universal affirmative propositions (offensive or otherwise), but categorical insults. In fact, the moderation team and NSG community, however, have taken this perfectly reasonable rule (no categorical insults) and twisted it to suit their own liberal biases (no universal affirmative propositions involving people AT ALL, because there's no such thing as true universal affirmative propositions, because relativism and subjectivism, right?).

4. It's a rule that requires you to judge somebody's intent or motivations, which should be utterly irrelevant when adjudicating a case. Either a wrongful act has been committed or not, independently of intent.

5. The rule is superfluous. There already are and should be rules against posting inherently offensive or frivolous content (e.g., spam, flaming, etc). The addition of a rule against trolling (which can only be adjudicated from a viewpoint of prejudice/bias) adds nothing useful to the currently existing ruleset other than the opportunity to stifle political/ideological dissidence.

6. It allows moderators, as written and understood, to censor/take action against people who spoke in only prima facie universal affirmative form, simply for not speaking in an unnatural and grammatically pedantic way. "Liberals sure do like bernie sanders" may be taken as offending against the "All x's are y's" rule...because you are simply missing the obvious meaning of the sentence "A whole lot of liberals, especially the ones that I know of and have encountered, sure do like bernie sanders."

Which leads me to:

7. The rule cannot be fairly applied by practically any moderator (whether biased or not) because every linguistic act, as such, finds itself and takes determinate meaning and realization in a determinate context. Unless a mod goes through the entire conversation in which the linguistic act takes place (which mods generally do not do), you simply cannot make a reasonable attempt to ascertain the intent of a given speaker (which you shouldn't be doing in the first place, mind you).

In short: Get rid of the trolling rule (a mere ploy for liberal censorship) and replace it with rules against pre-determined classes of speech which do not require a judgment call of "intent" on the part of the presiding moderator, rules which are not inherently prejudicial against socially conservative points of view.

3. I furthermore insist that the NationStates website instate the following rules specifically for the moderation team:

A. Only moderators who have similar ideological/religious/political views to the alleged offending party may make a ruling on so called "judgement calls." I.e., if it's not immediately clear that a given post violates a rule (other than the ones I have proposed to be stricken down), then only a moderator who would otherwise sympathize with that poster may make that call.

There is no such thing as an apolitical or unbiased ruling when it comes to matters of politics and religion. A "SJW" (again, simply for lack of a better term) cannot make a fair ruling either for or against a conservative. He has a vested interest, from the get go, in taking action against said conservative and interpreting him in an unfair way.

B. Only moderators who have similar ideological/religious/political views to the alleged offending party may resolve appeals.

For the same reason as the above.

C. Any moderator action which is overturned shall be deemed a case of moderator abuse and shall result in punitive actions against that moderator, up to and including a permaban from the NationStates website, and never less than the punishment unduly administered by that mod himself in that case.

Currently, moderators have no compelling reason to follow the site rules and moderate in a fair, unbiased, a-political manner. If they don't, so what? Even if that 7 day ban gets appealed, that's no skin off of the initial moderator's nose.

If moderators, who have just as much a tendency to act from their own preferences, biases, etc. as anyone else, are going to be in charge of moderating a site in which the subscribers are gauranteed, BY THE RULES, freedom of speech and a-political, neutral, unbiased moderation, then the moderators simply must be given an external check/balance to ensure their compliance with the stated site moderating philosophy.

It's unfair to the unfairly banned user to serve out his ban (later to be overturned), but meanwhile receive no remediation or redress against the offending mod.

IN SUM:

The Nationstates website advertises itself as gauranteeing free-speech and unbiased, politically unmotivated, neutral moderation, but has a moderation record, a composition of its practically all liberal moderation team and (at least informal) rule set which prejudices AGAINST conservative subscribers and IN FAVOR of liberal subscribers, contra the liberties gauranteed, in writing, on the site FAQ and rules page.

I hereby propose these rule changes to the moderators in the interest of actually aligning the ruleset and moderating practices with the expressed site philosophy.
Last edited by Kryozerkia on Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:41 am, edited 17 times in total.
Reason: Mod Edit: poll removed; discussion threads (even those labelled as "petitions") are for discussion, not votes.

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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:24 pm

Mega City 5 wrote:The Nationstates website advertises itself as gauranteeing free-speech


From the FAQ:

Q: It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?
A: Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.


There's no guarantee of free speech on this website, sorry mate.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kryozerkia » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:25 pm

From the FAQ:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

I got into an argument with this idiot in the forums, and I got deleted and he didn't! How come you allow pro-Catholic argument, but when someone tries to tell the TRUE story of the coming of Christ—

Okay, let me stop you there. It might look as if you are being persecuted for your political views, but what most likely happened is you made a personal attack and your opponent didn't. No matter what the subject matter, if you don't conduct yourself in accordance with the rules of etiquette, you will get into trouble with the moderators. The best way to get your points across in the forums is to remain calm and respect other people's right to disagree with you.


There is no free speech here.
Last edited by Kryozerkia on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Idzequitch » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:28 pm

Also worth noting that while no opinion is banned outright, there are many opinions that are extremely difficult to argue in favor of without trolling.
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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:28 pm

Kryozerkia wrote:From the FAQ:


I'm aware that it says that. However, it goes on to say that users can say whatever they want so long as it doesn't fall under the prohibited classes of actions (spam, endorsement of illegal activities, malicious, etc.).

The clear intent of the FAQ and main rule-set is for moderation to be adjuciated in an a-political, neutral, unbiased manner.

While the FAQ does verbally strike down "free speech," it nonetheless gaurantees it outside of that limited set of prohibited classes of speech (none of which have anything to do with the ideological content of one's speech).

Currently, that's just not the case. There is a practically all liberal, SJW moderation team (again, no offense) who adjudicate cases from a position of liberal bias.

That's not fair to conservatives.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:53 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Postby Ranko Kanzaki » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:31 pm

You're browsing a site where the powers that be are actually proud of the fact that they suppress certain speech. Just look at every other complaint about the speech restrictions here and the manner in which the responses are given.

I support certain changes to the speech policies, personally, but they are not going to happen.
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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:33 pm

Ranko Kanzaki wrote:You're browsing a site where the powers that be are actually proud of the fact that they suppress certain speech. Just look at every other complaint about the speech restrictions here and the manner in which the responses are given.

I support certain changes to the speech policies, personally, but they are not going to happen.


I simply want a rule-set that permits a level playing field between liberals and conservatives (which currently does not exist).

I fully agree that people shouldn't go around insulting each other, calling each other vulgar names, spamming, etc (though, in fact, liberals already do this with impunity).

But I shouldn't be banned simply for expressing and arguing a position in a language which is natural for someone who holds that position to use.

I'm not arguing for anarchy.

I'm arguing for equity and ideological neutrality on the part of the mods.

The mods should not presuppose, for their moderator activities, that "transgendered women" are either men or women. They should allow us to use whatever pronouns we feel comfortable with.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Idzequitch wrote:Also worth noting that while no opinion is banned outright, there are many opinions that are extremely difficult to argue in favor of without trolling.


You understand that the opinion of what those positions are is going to vary based on the community?

You likely hold positions which would get you banned on a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim board.

Fact is, however, that NationStates explicitly says that we can argue for any position we want, so long as, in effect, we aren't engaging in malicious, illegal, etc. behavior, and that the mods must respect our right to do so.

Again, I provide quotes for all of this in the OP.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Distantiality » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:47 pm

Kryozerkia wrote:From the FAQ:

It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.

I got into an argument with this idiot in the forums, and I got deleted and he didn't! How come you allow pro-Catholic argument, but when someone tries to tell the TRUE story of the coming of Christ—

Okay, let me stop you there. It might look as if you are being persecuted for your political views, but what most likely happened is you made a personal attack and your opponent didn't. No matter what the subject matter, if you don't conduct yourself in accordance with the rules of etiquette, you will get into trouble with the moderators. The best way to get your points across in the forums is to remain calm and respect other people's right to disagree with you.



There is no free speech here.



Good job not addressing the underlying complaint of the OP.
Last edited by Distantiality on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:48 pm

Distantiality wrote:Good job not addressing the underlying complaint of the OP.


He probably didn't even bother reading it.

I've come to expect as much from the mods.

All the more reasons why the last 3 rules I proposed for the mods with respect to themselves are absolutely essential.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Geilinor » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:58 pm

Mega City 5 wrote:
Idzequitch wrote:Also worth noting that while no opinion is banned outright, there are many opinions that are extremely difficult to argue in favor of without trolling.


You understand that the opinion of what those positions are is going to vary based on the community?

You likely hold positions which would get you banned on a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim board.

Fact is, however, that NationStates explicitly says that we can argue for any position we want, so long as, in effect, we aren't engaging in malicious, illegal, etc. behavior, and that the mods must respect our right to do so.

Again, I provide quotes for all of this in the OP.

If you have been banned from this site, then it was most likely due to a clear rules violation on your part.
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Distantiality
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Postby Distantiality » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Mega City 5 wrote:
You understand that the opinion of what those positions are is going to vary based on the community?

You likely hold positions which would get you banned on a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim board.

Fact is, however, that NationStates explicitly says that we can argue for any position we want, so long as, in effect, we aren't engaging in malicious, illegal, etc. behavior, and that the mods must respect our right to do so.

Again, I provide quotes for all of this in the OP.

If you have been banned from this site, then it was most likely due to a clear rules violation on your part.


Some people on here are banned just for holding unconventional opinions.

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Postby Ratateague » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Mega City 5 wrote:I simply want a rule-set that permits a level playing field between liberals and conservatives (which currently does not exist).

I fully agree that people shouldn't go around insulting each other, calling each other vulgar names, spamming, etc (though, in fact, liberals already do this with impunity).

But I shouldn't be banned simply for expressing and arguing a position in a language which is natural for someone who holds that position to use.

I'm not arguing for anarchy.

I'm arguing for equity and ideological neutrality on the part of the mods.

The mods should not presuppose, for their moderator activities, that "transgendered women" are either men or women. They should allow us to use whatever pronouns we feel comfortable with.

First off, I can't reiterate Kryozerkia's reference enough.
I got into an argument with this idiot in the forums, and I got deleted and he didn't! How come you allow pro-Catholic argument, but when someone tries to tell the TRUE story of the coming of Christ—

Okay, let me stop you there. It might look as if you are being persecuted for your political views, but what most likely happened is you made a personal attack and your opponent didn't. No matter what the subject matter, if you don't conduct yourself in accordance with the rules of etiquette, you will get into trouble with the moderators. The best way to get your points across in the forums is to remain calm and respect other people's right to disagree with you.

It's a helluva lot more likely that you incorrectly perceive unfair bias because you're already looking through a thick filter thinking that you aren't. That said, NationStates does have a liberal slant, but that's because of the community, not the people who run it.

viewtopic.php?p=29039086#p29039086
viewtopic.php?p=29038704#p29038704
viewtopic.php?p=29038821#p29038821
And judging by more of your most recent posts, I would say you are in no position to complain about namecalling. It looks like you're already treading on thin ice as it is. A fair warning from one NS player to another.
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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:01 pm

Geilinor wrote:If you have been banned from this site, then it was most likely due to a clear rules violation on your part.


I've been banned for advocating death (i.e., asserting that the State should conduct lawful and justified acts of war against offending nation-states) and trolling (expressing opinions that liberals don't like). I have yet to be banned for flaming, flame-baiting, etc., i.e., for actually engaging in objectionable behavior.

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Postby Geilinor » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:02 pm

Mega City 5 wrote:
Geilinor wrote:If you have been banned from this site, then it was most likely due to a clear rules violation on your part.


I've been banned for advocating death (i.e., asserting that the State should conduct lawful and justified acts of war against offending nation-states) and trolling (expressing opinions that liberals don't like). I have yet to be banned for flaming, flame-baiting, etc., i.e., for actually engaging in objectionable behavior.

/notamod

If I recall correctly, you were banned for calling for the destruction of the Middle East.
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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:04 pm

Ratateague wrote:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=29039086#p29039086
viewtopic.php?p=29038704#p29038704
viewtopic.php?p=29038821#p29038821
And judging by more of your most recent posts, I would say you are in no position to complain about namecalling. It looks like you're already treading on thin ice as it is. A fair warning from one NS player to another.
/notamod


In which of those threads did I name-call? I'll grant that I spoke in a curt and not completely professional way and expressed views that people find objectionable, but I didn't call anyone names. I didn't flame anyone.

And fact is, the liberals on this site get away with much worse.

Again, I wish to recall the fact that my most recent banning had nothing to do with any of those posts you cited.

One of the things I was actually banned for was for saying that the US should bomb Pakistan, Iran and Saudia Arabia for their support of terrorists.

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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:05 pm

Geilinor wrote:If I recall correctly, you were banned for calling for the destruction of the Middle East.


No. I was banned (in part) for saying that the US should bomb Iran, Pakistan and Saudia Arabia (or whatever countries endorse terrorism). These are perfectly commonplace conservative views.

There was even a song-parody released a while back "Bomb Iran" (a play on "Barbara Anne").

If memory serves, I believe that McCain referenced it once.

Meanwhile, liberals justify the murder of millions of unborn children.

And the mods are cool with that.

Go figure.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Vavax » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:07 pm

I do agree with you that there could be more freedom of speech, however this is a privately owned website, and the owners/moderators/whatever therefore have to right to do whatever they want with it. This community is honestly one of the better ones on the internet, if we didn't have the kind of moderation we did it would just end up as another site filled with trash. I cannot tell you personally whether or not there is a liberal bias, though this is very likely, but the internet in general is very liberal. Which means that liberal ideas are much more likely to be shown, as well as much more likely to be supported.
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Distantiality wrote:Good job not addressing the underlying complaint of the OP.



I've come to expect as much from the mods.

All the more reasons why the last 3 rules I proposed for the mods with respect to themselves are absolutely essential.

On the topic of those, I have to disagree. First how are the moderators supposed to know what the faith, political views, and ideological standpoints one may have, it is frankly a bit unrealistic. Second that would not end well, for the same reason that having people from an opposite viewpoint would have. It wouldn't be fair, those who had the same views as the mod would more than likely get off easier than the opposing viewpoint. And once again, mods reserve the right to do as they please, and also this too is unrealistic, a large site like NS can't spend massive amounts of resources on two people who happened to get into a flame war. It just doesn't make sense. Finally, have some respect for the mods, I understand you may not have a good relationship with them but they have a hard job and do a good job at it from my standpoint. The amount of trash and general bad behavior on the internet is overwhelming, and so far IMO they have done a wonderful job at not letting the community devolve into 4chan.
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Kryozerkia
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Postby Kryozerkia » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm

A rule isn't thrown out simply because inconvenient for an individual. Even if the position is well articulated.

It is entirely possible to argue unpopular view points within the rules. The context is everything. It's possible to advocate for the death penalty or execution for certain severe crimes. It's possible to argue against or for beliefs. Players can argue in favour of the death penalty, justifiable homocide, use of lethal force etc. We have pro-life players frequently argue in favour of strict access to, if not outright prohibition of abortion (I can think of at least two or three). There is a difference between expressing an unpopular opinion and deliberately trying to provoke individuals through offensive language.

Blanket rules exist to cover many scenarios because we cannot predict what sort of variation will crop up. eg. "Well, that wasn't written in the rules." Of course, it would be easier to say, 'don't be an asshole'...
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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:13 pm

Vavax wrote:I do agree with you that there could be more freedom of speech, however this is a privately owned website, and the owners/moderators/whatever therefore have to right to do whatever they want with it.


In principle, I agree with you.

However, that's not how they advertise themselves. As per their public advertisements, I have as much of a right to express my views as a liberal does his, and I can do so in language with which I feel comfortable.

As it stands, the FAQ page and rules are false advertising.

That's not how the moderators actually conduct themselves.

On the topic of those, I have to disagree. First how are the moderators supposed to know what the faith, political views, and ideological standpoints one may have, it is frankly a bit unrealistic.


Of the poster? Impossible. Of the posting? It should be evident in the posting itself. If I'm saying that I think that the US should bomb Iran, then a conservative, "pro-war" moderator should assess whether what I've said is acceptable.

Second that would not end well, for the same reason that having people from an opposite viewpoint would have. It wouldn't be fair, those who had the same views as the mod would more than likely get off easier than the opposing viewpoint.


It's already unfair in the opposite direction. There's no such thing as an unbiased mod when it comes to politics and religion.

And once again, mods reserve the right to do as they please


Not with what they've publicly advertised in writing.

and also this too is unrealistic, a large site like NS can't spend massive amounts of resources on two people who happened to get into a flame war.


My comments wouldn't apply to flame wars. If I call someone, e.g., "a stupid bitch," there's simply no question of political bias.

Finally, have some respect for the mods, I understand you may not have a good relationship with them but they have a hard job and do a good job at it from my standpoint.'


You're only saying that because you just so happen to share the bias of the moderators. If you were a social conservative, you'd be singing a different tune.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mega City 5
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Postby Mega City 5 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:20 pm

Kryozerkia wrote:A rule isn't thrown out simply because inconvenient for an individual. Even if the position is well articulated.


Once again, you are simply displaying a failure to understand my complaint.

It's not a matter of the rules' being convenient. The rules are inherently prejudicial against conservative views and lend themselves to moderator abuse/bias.

It's possible to advocate for the death penalty or execution for certain severe crimes.


Not as per the "no advocating death" rule. Again, I was banned, in part, for asserting that the US should conduct justifable acts of war against nations which endorse terrorism.

Meanwhile, liberals are left perfectly free to endorse the murder of unborn children and the elderly/disabled (euthanasia).

There is a difference between expressing an unpopular opinion and deliberately trying to provoke individuals through offensive language.


Who are you to determine whether I've "deliberately" tried to provoke someone or not? Who are you to try to peer into my mind to guage whether or not I'm trying to provoke people or not?

Again, I had action taken against me once for saying that transgendered persons who don't disclose their birth-sex to their sexual partners are, in effect, rapists (i.e., persons who commit rape) and for saying that, if sex and gender are the same, then transgendered persons are mentally deranged.

It was in the context of an argument and most certainly was not a deliberate attempt to provoke individuals through offensive language.

I was just stating the facts.

And again, language that's offensive to whom? "Offensive" is relative, as the FAQ itself points out, and I don't HAVE to be politically correct, as per the FAQ.

And again, why should I trust you (who are probably a SJW (again, no offense)) to judge me from an unbiased point of view?

And again, this is superfluous. There's already rules against flaming, name-calling, etc.

Ultimately, I'm not saying "toss out the rules because they're inconvenient." I'm telling you mods to follow your own damn rules as publicly advertised in the FAQ.
Last edited by Mega City 5 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Maljaratas
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Postby Maljaratas » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:32 pm

Might it be possible to provide links to examples of the liberals getting away with flaming, trolling, etc, And if possible, the links to your original statements regarding bombing the Middle East, transgenders, and other statements mentioned in the OP.

Mega City 5 wrote:C. Any moderator action which is overturned shall be deemed a case of moderator abuse and shall result in punitive actions against that moderator, up to and including a permaban from the NationStates website, and never less than the punishment unduly administered by that mod himself in that case.

Currently, moderators have no compelling reason to follow the site rules and moderate in a fair, unbiased, a-political manner. If they don't, so what? Even if that 7 day ban gets appealed, that's no skin off of the initial moderator's nose.

If moderators, who have just as much a tendency to act from their own preferences, biases, etc. as anyone else, are going to be in charge of moderating a site in which the subscribers are gauranteed, BY THE RULES, freedom of speech and a-political, neutral, unbiased moderation, then the moderators simply must be given an external check/balance to ensure their compliance with the stated site moderating philosophy.

It's unfair to the unfairly banned user to serve out his ban (later to be overturned), but meanwhile receive no remediation or redress against the offending mod.

In regards to this, I see no reason why this is necessary, as far as I know, all Mods watch each other naturally, as do nearly every forum player of the game. If a Mod is throwing around bans willy-nilly, or without previous warnings to the player (from wherever they may have come from), there is I would assume, automatically calls for the Admins, and higher up Mods to investigate. Further, after months of lurking in Moderation, I can remember almost no appeal attempts of bans, and zero bans overturned.
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Distantiality
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Postby Distantiality » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

Maljaratas wrote:Might it be possible to provide links to examples of the liberals getting away with flaming, trolling, etc


Dyakovo's entire forum career?

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Maljaratas
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Postby Maljaratas » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:36 pm

Distantiality wrote:
Maljaratas wrote:Might it be possible to provide links to examples of the liberals getting away with flaming, trolling, etc


Dyakovo's entire forum career?

The specific posts that were being mentioned in the OP arguments
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Distantiality
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Postby Distantiality » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:37 pm

Maljaratas wrote:
Distantiality wrote:
Dyakovo's entire forum career?

The specific posts that were being mentioned in the OP arguments


I'm not wrong though.

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