[Discussion] DEATing for "Doxing" - The Reboot

[Idzequitch]

This question is directed at Cogitation, in view of the ruling stickied: would you recommend then that we refrain from sharing any social media material directly tied to us or to NS friends we may have as friends in social media? The reason I ask is because of image sharing. Sometimes, posters (myself included) post/posted direct links to images from their FB accounts, as an example.

I can't speak for others, but I'm in the habit of uploading any pictures I want to share to my Photobucket account rather than linking to images from Facebook, etc. I don't think it will be a "rule" or anything, and I understand that some players don't really care if everyone knows everything about them (as evidenced by the telegrams I get on occasion from regionmates, introducing themselves as 15-year-old Joe Smith from Anywhereville, Arkansas) ... but I'd rather have a step of separation between myself and other people I don't really know on the internet.

I also know that there are plenty of players that add each other on Facebook, as Facebook friends. If that's a route you want to take, that's your prerogative; however, you don't really know who's on the other side of the computer, and - over the decade-plus that this game has been around - we've had well-known players end up in jail/prison for non-NS related offenses (*so far as I'm aware), but it's a scary world out there. Maybe it's just the female sense of self-preservation in me, but as much as I might think I could trust someone I only know on the internet ... it's quite possible to find yourself completely snowed, insofar as not really knowing who you're talking to or what you're dealing with.

TL;DR - there are a bunch of free photohosting sites out there. I'd recommend using them.

Agreed. It's almost no extra hassle to use Imgur or Photobucket, and they don't typically give people your personal info.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

This question is directed at Cogitation, in view of the ruling stickied: would you recommend then that we refrain from sharing any social media material directly tied to us or to NS friends we may have as friends in social media? The reason I ask is because of image sharing. Sometimes, posters (myself included) post/posted direct links to images from their FB accounts, as an example.

I can't speak for others, but I'm in the habit of uploading any pictures I want to share to my Photobucket account rather than linking to images from Facebook, etc. I don't think it will be a "rule" or anything, and I understand that some players don't really care if everyone knows everything about them (as evidenced by the telegrams I get on occasion from regionmates, introducing themselves as 15-year-old Joe Smith from Anywhereville, Arkansas) ... but I'd rather have a step of separation between myself and other people I don't really know on the internet.

I also know that there are plenty of players that add each other on Facebook, as Facebook friends. If that's a route you want to take, that's your prerogative; however, you don't really know who's on the other side of the computer, and - over the decade-plus that this game has been around - we've had well-known players end up in jail/prison for non-NS related offenses (*so far as I'm aware), but it's a scary world out there. Maybe it's just the female sense of self-preservation in me, but as much as I might think I could trust someone I only know on the internet ... it's quite possible to find yourself completely snowed, insofar as not really knowing who you're talking to or what you're dealing with.

TL;DR - there are a bunch of free photohosting sites out there. I'd recommend using them.

Thanks. Like I said, I do not have a FB anymore and I took the time to do a few things about settings and images before leaving the site, but I have seen other posters do it and was a tad curious, in line of the latest addition to the Terms of Service and rules, about image sharing and whether it could apply or not. I mean, I know that if someone does it, and the images are of themselves, it is not doxxing or anything the like but the whole deal about somebody else trying to do the same to your images gave me the hibbie jibbies for a second and I wondered about it.

[NERVUN]

I can't speak for others, but I'm in the habit of uploading any pictures I want to share to my Photobucket account rather than linking to images from Facebook, etc. I don't think it will be a "rule" or anything, and I understand that some players don't really care if everyone knows everything about them (as evidenced by the telegrams I get on occasion from regionmates, introducing themselves as 15-year-old Joe Smith from Anywhereville, Arkansas) ... but I'd rather have a step of separation between myself and other people I don't really know on the internet.

I also know that there are plenty of players that add each other on Facebook, as Facebook friends. If that's a route you want to take, that's your prerogative; however, you don't really know who's on the other side of the computer, and - over the decade-plus that this game has been around - we've had well-known players end up in jail/prison for non-NS related offenses (*so far as I'm aware), but it's a scary world out there. Maybe it's just the female sense of self-preservation in me, but as much as I might think I could trust someone I only know on the internet ... it's quite possible to find yourself completely snowed, insofar as not really knowing who you're talking to or what you're dealing with.

TL;DR - there are a bunch of free photohosting sites out there. I'd recommend using them.

Thanks. Like I said, I do not have a FB anymore and I took the time to do a few things about settings and images before leaving the site, but I have seen other posters do it and was a tad curious, in line of the latest addition to the Terms of Service and rules, about image sharing and whether it could apply or not. I mean, I know that if someone does it, and the images are of themselves, it is not doxxing or anything the like but the whole deal about somebody else trying to do the same to your images gave me the hibbie jibbies for a second and I wondered about it.

One thing to clarify, Nana, if you, yourself post from your own FB account, that is not doxing (as an aside, where the hell did this word come from? Until this thread, I had no idea this was a thing), that's you being silly about your own security. It would be dicey if you quoted someone who linked from THEIR own account and would be problematic (Within Cog's rubric) if you posted a link to someone else's FB photo on your own.

The end goal if to allow players as much control as we possibly can over their own privacy and security.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Thanks. Like I said, I do not have a FB anymore and I took the time to do a few things about settings and images before leaving the site, but I have seen other posters do it and was a tad curious, in line of the latest addition to the Terms of Service and rules, about image sharing and whether it could apply or not. I mean, I know that if someone does it, and the images are of themselves, it is not doxxing or anything the like but the whole deal about somebody else trying to do the same to your images gave me the hibbie jibbies for a second and I wondered about it.

One thing to clarify, Nana, if you, yourself post from your own FB account, that is not doxing (as an aside, where the hell did this word come from? Until this thread, I had no idea this was a thing), that's you being silly about your own security. It would be dicey if you quoted someone who linked from THEIR own account and would be problematic (Within Cog's rubric) if you posted a link to someone else's FB photo on your own.

The end goal if to allow players as much control as we possibly can over their own privacy and security.

I blame the Gamergate thread for that one. The doxxing.

Got it. The issue would be if we decided to post links to someone else's profile without their expressed permission. Am I correct?

[Tsaraine]

One thing to clarify, Nana, if you, yourself post from your own FB account, that is not doxing (as an aside, where the hell did this word come from? Until this thread, I had no idea this was a thing), that's you being silly about your own security. It would be dicey if you quoted someone who linked from THEIR own account and would be problematic (Within Cog's rubric) if you posted a link to someone else's FB photo on your own.

The end goal if to allow players as much control as we possibly can over their own privacy and security.

I blame the Gamergate thread for that one. The doxxing.

Got it. The issue would be if we decided to post links to someone else's profile without their expressed permission. Am I correct?

Copacetic.

[Fartsniffage]

Thanks. Like I said, I do not have a FB anymore and I took the time to do a few things about settings and images before leaving the site, but I have seen other posters do it and was a tad curious, in line of the latest addition to the Terms of Service and rules, about image sharing and whether it could apply or not. I mean, I know that if someone does it, and the images are of themselves, it is not doxxing or anything the like but the whole deal about somebody else trying to do the same to your images gave me the hibbie jibbies for a second and I wondered about it.

One thing to clarify, Nana, if you, yourself post from your own FB account, that is not doxing (as an aside, where the hell did this word come from? Until this thread, I had no idea this was a thing), that's you being silly about your own security. It would be dicey if you quoted someone who linked from THEIR own account and would be problematic (Within Cog's rubric) if you posted a link to someone else's FB photo on your own.

The end goal if to allow players as much control as we possibly can over their own privacy and security.

Abbreviation of "documenting".

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I blame the Gamergate thread for that one. The doxxing.

Got it. The issue would be if we decided to post links to someone else's profile without their expressed permission. Am I correct?

Copacetic.

Are you telling me that I need some cough syrup? xD

In excellent order, got it.

[98X]

As 98X, I became aware of an incident where something about someone in a private subsection of an offsite forum was disclosed on NS. This was handled by the appropriate parties as this was offsite.

Just earlier today I went through the settings page for one of my nations, where I realized we're not required to provide a single piece of personal information about ourselves. We can answer the political questions however we like. We can answer issues however we like. We can change the customizable fields to anything within site guidelines. We can even leave the e-mail field blank and/or sign up for a fake gmail and use that on NS if we want.

The rest of it is stuff we choose to disclose about ourselves.

What should be done where certain personal identifiable information would be obvious from the nation name? For instance, it's fairly obvious from my nation name that my real name is Gregory. If someone calls me Greg or Gregory, have they doxxed me or is that just calling me by an abbreviated version of my nation name?

Greg, I think the point here is as a hypothetical example I mention something on NS that was shared between us on IRC, since that's offsite. That kind of thing.

Which brings me to another question; several of us who participate on NS Sports regularly quote our IRC babbling amongst each other in places like forum signatures, RMBs, and have 'memorable moments'-type dispatches. Would it behoove us to rethink this?

Finally, it seems the rules have intent covered, but also how the information could be used. In the example where 'so and so is a rocket scientist who lives at (exact and full address)', someone merely browsing the internet could view it and whoever it is could be in imminent danger. In that case, I'd totally support a policy where that user is deleted on first offense. Things like someone accidentally calling someone "Greg" whose nation doesn't have it in their nation name and hasn't revealed that on a forum post somewhere should probably just be a warning or maybe a one-day ban to remind them they didn't have the right to share that.

[Phydios]

I was going to respond to this ruling, but I'm too stunned to think of what to say. So let me just say this. After 17 months of being the mods' biggest fan, my trust in them is being seriously shaken. Not broken (yet), but certainly tested.

I would be genuinely interested in reading where your concerns lie.

We're always interested in hearing what the player base has to say - hence these discussion threads - even if, of course, we can't always act in the manner that individual players would like us to.

Because it was 3 AM my time when I posted the above, I waited to respond to Arch so I could think properly. I can now say that my concerns have been relieved. DLN's warning for doxxing (for linking to a limited-access page) seemed unambiguously wrong. My thought process was that if the link was public, it was public, and if it was private, the only thing revealed was an FB error message. But Cog's recent message added the missing puzzle pieces and changed the image completely. In short, a single (apparently) unquestionably wrong action linked together a few questionably wrong actions, making what seemed to be a pattern that I am very much against. Now that more explanation has been given, I have no concerns, and can continue trusting in the mods without feeling naïve. Stay the course, guys and girls.

[Tsaraine]

IRC logs are generally fine. There have been incidents in the past where people have posted IRC logs which included IP addresses, though, and that's a no-go, so please make sure you edit those out! Calling someone by their first name in casual conversation is also fine, if that's how they'd like to be identified. There are a lot of Gregs in the world. If their name is Tazqwakdyle, well, there are probably fewer of those, and it might be foolish of Tazqwakdyle to put their extremely rare first name out there for people to see - but if they want to share that information, that's up to them.

We don't intend to delete people for security breaches of the "accidentally referred to someone by their first name" level. Although if you've gone out and found their first name without them giving it to you and are suddenly dropping it in conversation, that'd be kinda creepy and sinister and would be landed on more heavily.

[NERVUN]

One thing to clarify, Nana, if you, yourself post from your own FB account, that is not doxing (as an aside, where the hell did this word come from? Until this thread, I had no idea this was a thing), that's you being silly about your own security. It would be dicey if you quoted someone who linked from THEIR own account and would be problematic (Within Cog's rubric) if you posted a link to someone else's FB photo on your own.

The end goal if to allow players as much control as we possibly can over their own privacy and security.

Abbreviation of "documenting".

Ah! Got it.

[NERVUN]

As 98X, I became aware of an incident where something about someone in a private subsection of an offsite forum was disclosed on NS. This was handled by the appropriate parties as this was offsite.

Just earlier today I went through the settings page for one of my nations, where I realized we're not required to provide a single piece of personal information about ourselves. We can answer the political questions however we like. We can answer issues however we like. We can change the customizable fields to anything within site guidelines. We can even leave the e-mail field blank and/or sign up for a fake gmail and use that on NS if we want.

The rest of it is stuff we choose to disclose about ourselves.

What should be done where certain personal identifiable information would be obvious from the nation name? For instance, it's fairly obvious from my nation name that my real name is Gregory. If someone calls me Greg or Gregory, have they doxxed me or is that just calling me by an abbreviated version of my nation name?

Greg, I think the point here is as a hypothetical example I mention something on NS that was shared between us on IRC, since that's offsite. That kind of thing.

Which brings me to another question; several of us who participate on NS Sports regularly quote our IRC babbling amongst each other in places like forum signatures, RMBs, and have 'memorable moments'-type dispatches. Would it behoove us to rethink this?

Finally, it seems the rules have intent covered, but also how the information could be used. In the example where 'so and so is a rocket scientist who lives at (exact and full address)', someone merely browsing the internet could view it and whoever it is could be in imminent danger. In that case, I'd totally support a policy where that user is deleted on first offense. Things like someone accidentally calling someone "Greg" whose nation doesn't have it in their nation name and hasn't revealed that on a forum post somewhere should probably just be a warning or maybe a one-day ban to remind them they didn't have the right to share that.

Indeed. Again, we're also looking at intent. Malicious doxing is going to be met with an appropriate response. Accidental... well, depending on the information released is more likely to be met with a rolled up newspaper and a "Don't do that!"

I do appropriate you hitting the nail right on the head, we DON'T ask for your personal information, so it really is up to you to choose what to release. You're not going to get into trouble or releasing your own info, it's how others use it or gain info and release it that's the problem.

[RiderSyl]

Again, we're also looking at intent. Malicious doxing is going to be met with an appropriate response. Accidental... well, depending on the information released is more likely to be met with a rolled up newspaper and a "Don't do that!"

With the above quote in mind, where did Nathi's ruling fall in regards to intent? I'm asking in an attempt to get a sort of early barometer for the scale of intent for this rule.

[The Blaatschapen]

Again, we're also looking at intent. Malicious doxing is going to be met with an appropriate response. Accidental... well, depending on the information released is more likely to be met with a rolled up newspaper and a "Don't do that!"

With the above quote in mind, where did Nathi's ruling fall in regards to intent? I'm asking in an attempt to get a sort of early barometer for the scale of intent for this rule.

<snip> Given Dread Lady Nathicana's relatively clean record and the fact that I don't perceive any deliberate intent to cause harm, an official warning is sufficient in this case.

(emphasis and snip mine)

That answers your question?

Edit: More specific queries regarding that ruling will have to be made in the other (for now closed) thread

[Grenartia]

Most of my concerns have been addressed. However, I still have some lingering questions:

Elsewhere I've run into the definition of "information that is specific enough that you can be tracked down in real life with it". So I'd guess specific street address, phone number, stuff like that. Personally I'm at the unlucky disadvantage of having such a rare surname that there's just one other person on the planet (with 99.999% certainty) with the same combination of first and last name, so I guard knowledge of my last name viciously carefully.

If someone says, for example, that they're from Queens, New York, that's probably not enough to count - though the mods will be the final judges of that - since that's still a huge mass of people to "hide in". But specifying that they are the "only person who dyes their hair blue in [town with under 100 people]" might be.

IP addresses are of course off-limits, because they can be used for really accurate pinpointing.

And what of cases where users, say, make the news (or, [insert whatever power you wish]-forbid, make the obituaries), and for whatever reason, are unable to respond? In Dya's remembrance thread, Nana posted a picture of Dya. Is that not PII? Would quoting anybody who posts a picture in the What Do You Look Like thread fall afoul of doxxing?

[NERVUN]

Most of my concerns have been addressed. However, I still have some lingering questions:

And what of cases where users, say, make the news (or, [insert whatever power you wish]-forbid, make the obituaries), and for whatever reason, are unable to respond? In Dya's remembrance thread, Nana posted a picture of Dya. Is that not PII? Would quoting anybody who posts a picture in the What Do You Look Like thread fall afoul of doxxing?

For news, we're gonna have to take it as they come. For What Do You Look Like, well in my opinion, the user in question has posted their own photo in a thread dedicated to that. They have in effect tossed the info out there. Now, that said, it would be nice if people DON'T quote it, just link to the post in question so that should said user change their mind, they can remove the information quickly.

I doubt, however, that we will start smacking people for quoting in a thread dedicated to that purpose.