NationStates

I have a crazy idea... do follow. Why don't we, instead of suggesting terrible ideas like the one in the OP, just allow the dust to settle on the current situation, let those involved learned from their mistakes, suggest actually good ideas afterwards and move on?

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I have a crazy idea... do follow. Why don't we, instead of suggesting terrible ideas like the one in the OP, just allow the dust to settle on the current situation, let those involved learned from their mistakes, suggest actually good ideas afterwards and move on?

Because this will inevitably happen again, not that tribunal is a good idea. People want something done because it's not enjoyable to feel like you're toyed with and not listened to. Ideas need to be offered but they also need to be listened to.

The Alexanderians wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I have a crazy idea... do follow. Why don't we, instead of suggesting terrible ideas like the one in the OP, just allow the dust to settle on the current situation, let those involved learned from their mistakes, suggest actually good ideas afterwards and move on?

Because this will inevitably happen again, not that tribunal is a good idea. People want something done because it's not enjoyable to feel like you're toyed with and not listened to. Ideas need to be offered but they also need to be listened to.

Sure thing Alex, however, that doesn't mean we are going to entertain every single half assed idea that someone decides to post about. Like this tribunal one. Nor are we going to get anywhere by just posting and posting in moderation, in hundreds of threads. Things obviously need to settle down so we can sit down and have an actual discussion about it. Right now, everyone is on the defensive. We won't achieve a thing this way.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

The Alexanderians wrote:Because this will inevitably happen again, not that tribunal is a good idea. People want something done because it's not enjoyable to feel like you're toyed with and not listened to. Ideas need to be offered but they also need to be listened to.

Sure thing Alex, however, that doesn't mean we are going to entertain every single half assed idea that someone decides to post about. Like this tribunal one. Nor are we going to get anywhere by just posting and posting in moderation, in hundreds of threads. Things obviously need to settle down so we can sit down and have an actual discussion about it. Right now, everyone is on the defensive. We won't achieve a thing this way.

Which is why we've trash...well not so much trashed but opposed this idea in the thread.

Justice would be chaotic if mobs ruled, especially on growing forums like ours. The current modding system is really all we need. They already do us a favor by allowing us to start discussion threads on this ruling forum to amend/add/remove policies.

fwiw, this is a really bad idea that'd lead to far more issues being clouded by appeals to popularity and any number of other problems.

I suppose I'll actually give my opinion on this matter.

When you sign up on this site, you are given plenty of opportunity to see the rules and regulations of the forum. It's on practically every subforum what is allowed, and what is not. To be frank, the system we have now is absolutely too merciful to rule-breakers.

But being this is Moderation, and this kind of thing shouldn't be something for me to decide, I'll leave it at that.

The Mods aren't your Momma and Dada.

Hasn't this been suggested a hundred times?
If so, hasn't it been shot down a hundred times?

I have my disagreements with the severity and graphics of the punishments, but this idea is terrible.

With the ammount of reports that come in, this process would be waaaaaaaay to tedious to be effective.

Are we going to use identify verification for all accounts?

No, because that's not feasible, or it would be too invasive. What you are proposing would be a puppetspamocracy.

Wallenburg wrote:A tribunal would probably DEAT anyone who doesn't support Trump or Sanders, so no thank you.

I agree.

As the FAQ says, NationStates is Max Barry's own Father Knows Best State, and IMO it should stay that way. OP is probably either too focused on principles and thus seeing the trees and not the forest, or does not have much experience with online communities and the tendency of self-moderated communities to degenerate into either shockfests or groupthink.

Coraspia wrote:

The Alexanderians wrote:What getting rid of mods altogether or just the current ones.

Just the current ones. I think we probably need mods (unfortunately), but the current batch don't seem to give a crap what players think.

Can we just point out that you're as impartial on this as a NAMBLA member complaining about To Catch a Predator?

This whole "tribunal/player jury" suggestion I see floating around every 3 months or so is a bad idea, and I think that the most recent massive hits to both GP and RP alike are amazing proof of why we do need a strong moderation team that's willing to make unpopular decisions to uphold the rules. A tribunal would only make this process more political, and open Max and the site open to a heck of a lot more legal headache. Remember, a big role of the moderation staff and admin team is not only to punish players for breaking rules and uphold the ToS, but also to make sure Max doesn't get sued.

EDIT: Rewording for clarity

Salazarstan wrote:I propose an nationstates tribunal made up of players and one mod or admin

NO.

Frankly, the day when PLAYERS will issue rulings on disciplinary issues here is the day when I will leave NS for good.

Iohann wrote:

Coraspia wrote:Just the current ones. I think we probably need mods (unfortunately), but the current batch don't seem to give a crap what players think.

Can we just point out that you're as impartial on this as a NAMBLA member complaining about To Catch a Predator?

This whole "tribunal/player jury" suggestion I see floating around every 3 months or so is a bad idea, and I think that the most recent massive hits to both GP and RP alike are amazing proof of why we do need a strong moderation team that's willing to make unpopular decisions to uphold the rules. A tribunal would only make this process more political, and open Max and the site open to a heck of a lot more legal headache. Remember, a big role of the moderation staff and admin team is not only to punish players for breaking rules and uphold the ToS, but also to make sure Max doesn't get sued.

EDIT: Rewording for clarity

"Every 3 month"

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I have a crazy idea... do follow. Why don't we, instead of suggesting terrible ideas like the one in the OP, just allow the dust to settle on the current situation, let those involved learned from their mistakes, suggest actually good ideas afterwards and move on?

Nonsense, something that crazy could never work. I mean its not like there's been mod decisions that caused uproars like this before and the resulting chaos of suggestions definitely didn't putter out to nothingness* after a couple weeks at most.

*(Excepting perhaps the installment in some players of a new distrust in moderation)

The Corparation wrote:Nonsense, something that crazy could never work. I mean its not like there's been mod decisions that caused uproars like this before and the resulting chaos of suggestions definitely didn't putter out to nothingness* after a couple weeks at most.

*(Excepting perhaps the installment in some players of a new distrust in moderation)

There's been at least five that I've seen while I've been here. Probably more that I missed and many more before my time. The last really big one was that one about a moderator being rude to RPers or something - an entire subforum was calling for his head. Result?

I think he's promoted now. For better or worse, it truly does not matter what you think.

(also if you were being sarcastic and implying all this I apologize, it's hard to tell)

Twilight Imperium wrote:

The Corparation wrote:Nonsense, something that crazy could never work. I mean its not like there's been mod decisions that caused uproars like this before and the resulting chaos of suggestions definitely didn't putter out to nothingness* after a couple weeks at most.

*(Excepting perhaps the installment in some players of a new distrust in moderation)

There's been at least five that I've seen while I've been here. Probably more that I missed and many more before my time. The last really big one was that one about a moderator being rude to RPers or something - an entire subforum was calling for his head. Result?

I think he's promoted now. For better or worse, it truly does not matter what you think.

(also if you were being sarcastic and implying all this I apologize, it's hard to tell)

I was being sarcastic.

Also with regards to the incident you're thinking of, it was less being rude and more of that Mod openly creating a WA Liberate proposal for the express purpose of raiding a founderless RP region who had been "cowering" behind a password in order to avoid the wonderful and fun R/D gameplay around which all of NS revolves.

The Corparation wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I have a crazy idea... do follow. Why don't we, instead of suggesting terrible ideas like the one in the OP, just allow the dust to settle on the current situation, let those involved learned from their mistakes, suggest actually good ideas afterwards and move on?

Nonsense, something that crazy could never work. I mean its not like there's been mod decisions that caused uproars like this before and the resulting chaos of suggestions definitely didn't putter out to nothingness* after a couple weeks at most.

*(Excepting perhaps the installment in some players of a new distrust in moderation)

I'm just here, sipping wine. Just tried to be a voice for reason, but you know, nobody listens to cats.

Salazarstan wrote:I propose an nationstates tribunal made up of players and one mod or admin, here the defended should at least see whats he/she is being accused of and his/her accuser should be brought forth based on the evidence we the people will decide if this individual is guilty of said crime before handing down whatever punishment that mod wants to give.

note the moderation can't extend the punishment if the offended that chose to stand trial at the tribunal if such acts are discovered a miss trial will be declared.

I want it to be know in nationstates history the mods and admin have all the power and we the userbase are granted little to no freedom except what we are allowed to have, at least this way we are given some power.

1: Your proposal isn't new and is the latest attempt at making NationStates a "democracy" using courts to decide punishments - though your attempt is far more sloppy and rides the "Lets rebel against the ebul Mod team!" momentum gaining heat once more because of this recent sexting sweep. That's all these threads are now these days - the "Lets try to usurp the Mods! YEA! OCCUPY NATIONSTATES!" bla bla bla. It's nothing new and I don't think it wont end here. There's always gonna be incidents like this.

2: NationStates isn't a democracy - it's not obligated to be one (or for that matter imitate any specific democracy here in Earth) nor should it. You need to understand democracy isn't this honorable moral thing you make it out to be on the internet, all it's going to do here is make the process longer, more bureaucratic, and chaotic. All this suggestion is is a blatant attempt to remove the need for the Mod team by making some court that will make judgements by majority vote or something. People these days are quick to forget the role of Moderation or what the Mod team has done for them and this site. If you don't like that this site is owned by someone who enforces their given rules using a Moderation Team, you're free to leave - it's poetic but you're free to leave if you don't like how things are done here, nothing forces you to be here on NS or to even interact with Moderation.

3: Reports are easy to see, rebuke, and appeal any punishment handed out. Your record is easily accessible by sending in a GHR asking for it - the Team will happily send you your record. There's almost nothing hidden here in terms of what Mods can do, what you're known to them as, or your record. I can't even count the amount of times a Mod has linked the rules to this site or the help page - they do it more then at least greetings every day.

4: Your suggestion eliminates the the position of having mods - that's your real intention here and those who continue to make this "court" argument. You're basically cutting them out of the equation because you're just one of many people now who think the Mods are evil corrupt people ruling this site just to fulfill their desire to abuse us players. Players shouldn't have the power to judge each other like it was a matter of raising your hand - people on here can be uneducated, ill informed, lack tools, and can generally by unworthy of making such decisions. This suggestion is just the latest attempt at some perfect jury trial that will never be - do you see how many reports are made daily!? There's no way you're going to handle reports as fast or as efficiently as done now if you have a court case system for every report. But lets remind the NS community that Moderation is here to serve you, they're unpaid volunteers who take shit probably daily (especially these days) when they show some basic humanity or they make some type of mistake - maybe they missworded something, maybe they got a ruling wrong, regardless of what they do critics are always waiting in the shadows to make a new argument like this that the Mod team is oppressive. This "Suggestion" has been made over and over again yet the answer you'll get will never change: it's going to be a big fat no. Quite frankly, I'd like to see your court rule a paid spammer needs to be shut down within seconds of their first post or that they can get reports on people's histories - even if we did give access to temporary juries the process would be bogged by slow action and laziness.

Quite frankly, im tired of this movement of targeting the Mod team. As someone who knows some of them on more personal levels, who was even warned by one such friend, I am thankful for their service. They're unpaid volunteers who keep this site running and clean - they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities and I'd say they're keeping justice as high a standard as any real court would ever do. I would be a liar if I didn't have some concerns, but that's minuscule to what a potential user based court system would do. Such a system would absolutely destroy this site, and that's almost certain. I feel like im just venting after still seeing this argument for days now but I think it's something that needed to be said, though im sure im not the first to say it in this thread.

The Corparation wrote:Also with regards to the incident you're thinking of, it was less being rude and more of that Mod openly creating a WA Liberate proposal for the express purpose of raiding a founderless RP region who had been "cowering" behind a password in order to avoid the wonderful and fun R/D gameplay around which all of NS revolves.

Potato, small subterranean tuber He certainly didn't do it to make friends, and it still serves as an example of the utter futility of these kinds of nonsense threads.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

The Corparation wrote:Nonsense, something that crazy could never work. I mean its not like there's been mod decisions that caused uproars like this before and the resulting chaos of suggestions definitely didn't putter out to nothingness* after a couple weeks at most.

*(Excepting perhaps the installment in some players of a new distrust in moderation)

I'm just here, sipping wine. Just tried to be a voice for reason, but you know, nobody listens to cats.

Well /I/ thought it was a better suggestion than most, so ... yeah. Well done. I would ask to join you but I think wine would go poorly with my meds. All the more for kitty!

Nobody here is a legal authority. Nobody here has any rights but what the Owners allow. God doesn't exist here, to give you your special rights.

That being said, running this website involves a certain amount of private information that should we create this public trial system, would become available to everyone.


The system, ain't perfect but it works.

Common Territories wrote:

Salazarstan wrote:I propose an nationstates tribunal made up of players and one mod or admin, here the defended should at least see whats he/she is being accused of and his/her accuser should be brought forth based on the evidence we the people will decide if this individual is guilty of said crime before handing down whatever punishment that mod wants to give.

note the moderation can't extend the punishment if the offended that chose to stand trial at the tribunal if such acts are discovered a miss trial will be declared.

I want it to be know in nationstates history the mods and admin have all the power and we the userbase are granted little to no freedom except what we are allowed to have, at least this way we are given some power.

1: Your proposal isn't new and is the latest attempt at making NationStates a "democracy" using courts to decide punishments - though your attempt is far more sloppy and rides the "Lets rebel against the ebul Mod team!" momentum gaining heat once more because of this recent sexting sweep. That's all these threads are now these days - the "Lets try to usurp the Mods! YEA! OCCUPY NATIONSTATES!" bla bla bla. It's nothing new and I don't think it wont end here. There's always gonna be incidents like this.

2: NationStates isn't a democracy - it's not obligated to be one (or for that matter imitate any specific democracy here in Earth) nor should it. You need to understand democracy isn't this honorable moral thing you make it out to be on the internet, all it's going to do here is make the process longer, more bureaucratic, and chaotic. All this suggestion is is a blatant attempt to remove the need for the Mod team by making some court that will make judgements by majority vote or something. People these days are quick to forget the role of Moderation or what the Mod team has done for them and this site. If you don't like that this site is owned by someone who enforces their given rules using a Moderation Team, you're free to leave - it's poetic but you're free to leave if you don't like how things are done here, nothing forces you to be here on NS or to even interact with Moderation.

3: Reports are easy to see, rebuke, and appeal any punishment handed out. Your record is easily accessible by sending in a GHR asking for it - the Team will happily send you your record. There's almost nothing hidden here in terms of what Mods can do, what you're known to them as, or your record. I can't even count the amount of times a Mod has linked the rules to this site or the help page - they do it more then at least greetings every day.

4: Your suggestion eliminates the the position of having mods - that's your real intention here and those who continue to make this "court" argument. You're basically cutting them out of the equation because you're just one of many people now who think the Mods are evil corrupt people ruling this site just to fulfill their desire to abuse us players. Players shouldn't have the power to judge each other like it was a matter of raising your hand - people on here can be uneducated, ill informed, lack tools, and can generally by unworthy of making such decisions. This suggestion is just the latest attempt at some perfect jury trial that will never be - do you see how many reports are made daily!? There's no way you're going to handle reports as fast or as efficiently as done now if you have a court case system for every report. But lets remind the NS community that Moderation is here to serve you, they're unpaid volunteers who take shit probably daily (especially these days) when they show some basic humanity or they make some type of mistake - maybe they missworded something, maybe they got a ruling wrong, regardless of what they do critics are always waiting in the shadows to make a new argument like this that the Mod team is oppressive. This "Suggestion" has been made over and over again yet the answer you'll get will never change: it's going to be a big fat no. Quite frankly, I'd like to see your court rule a paid spammer needs to be shut down within seconds of their first post or that they can get reports on people's histories - even if we did give access to temporary juries the process would be bogged by slow action and laziness.

Quite frankly, im tired of this movement of targeting the Mod team. As someone who knows some of them on more personal levels, who was even warned by one such friend, I am thankful for their service. They're unpaid volunteers who keep this site running and clean - they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities and I'd say they're keeping justice as high a standard as any real court would ever do. I would be a liar if I didn't have some concerns, but that's minuscule to what a potential user based court system would do. Such a system would absolutely destroy this site, and that's almost certain. I feel like im just venting after still seeing this argument for days now but I think it's something that needed to be said, though im sure im not the first to say it in this thread.

Yes, so much this right here, this puts into words my exact thoughts on this whole nonsense.

After everything that has happened... A court system would make it worse especially since it would probably be modled after a real life example. We have no idea how a good system works, because our court systems are full of bias, prejudice, and are unfair to certain protected classes. So... NO, no way, not going to happen, and HELL NO!

I may disagree with a few things that were done and I may facepalm at the current situation, but I go through the channels and fight it using discussions, appeals, and GHRs. If I don't like the result I will leave. That's kinda my option here. I've been here for six years and haven't left yet, so either they're not THAT bad or I've been in cryo sleep for those six years.

Impractical, dangerous, and unnecessary.

We don't need mobs hunting down wrong-doers, when we have (mostly) benevolent Mods keeping order.

Common Territories wrote:

Salazarstan wrote:I propose an nationstates tribunal made up of players and one mod or admin, here the defended should at least see whats he/she is being accused of and his/her accuser should be brought forth based on the evidence we the people will decide if this individual is guilty of said crime before handing down whatever punishment that mod wants to give.

note the moderation can't extend the punishment if the offended that chose to stand trial at the tribunal if such acts are discovered a miss trial will be declared.

I want it to be know in nationstates history the mods and admin have all the power and we the userbase are granted little to no freedom except what we are allowed to have, at least this way we are given some power.

1: Your proposal isn't new and is the latest attempt at making NationStates a "democracy" using courts to decide punishments - though your attempt is far more sloppy and rides the "Lets rebel against the ebul Mod team!" momentum gaining heat once more because of this recent sexting sweep. That's all these threads are now these days - the "Lets try to usurp the Mods! YEA! OCCUPY NATIONSTATES!" bla bla bla. It's nothing new and I don't think it wont end here. There's always gonna be incidents like this.

2: NationStates isn't a democracy - it's not obligated to be one (or for that matter imitate any specific democracy here in Earth) nor should it. You need to understand democracy isn't this honorable moral thing you make it out to be on the internet, all it's going to do here is make the process longer, more bureaucratic, and chaotic. All this suggestion is is a blatant attempt to remove the need for the Mod team by making some court that will make judgements by majority vote or something. People these days are quick to forget the role of Moderation or what the Mod team has done for them and this site. If you don't like that this site is owned by someone who enforces their given rules using a Moderation Team, you're free to leave - it's poetic but you're free to leave if you don't like how things are done here, nothing forces you to be here on NS or to even interact with Moderation.

3: Reports are easy to see, rebuke, and appeal any punishment handed out. Your record is easily accessible by sending in a GHR asking for it - the Team will happily send you your record. There's almost nothing hidden here in terms of what Mods can do, what you're known to them as, or your record. I can't even count the amount of times a Mod has linked the rules to this site or the help page - they do it more then at least greetings every day.

4: Your suggestion eliminates the the position of having mods - that's your real intention here and those who continue to make this "court" argument. You're basically cutting them out of the equation because you're just one of many people now who think the Mods are evil corrupt people ruling this site just to fulfill their desire to abuse us players. Players shouldn't have the power to judge each other like it was a matter of raising your hand - people on here can be uneducated, ill informed, lack tools, and can generally by unworthy of making such decisions. This suggestion is just the latest attempt at some perfect jury trial that will never be - do you see how many reports are made daily!? There's no way you're going to handle reports as fast or as efficiently as done now if you have a court case system for every report. But lets remind the NS community that Moderation is here to serve you, they're unpaid volunteers who take shit probably daily (especially these days) when they show some basic humanity or they make some type of mistake - maybe they missworded something, maybe they got a ruling wrong, regardless of what they do critics are always waiting in the shadows to make a new argument like this that the Mod team is oppressive. This "Suggestion" has been made over and over again yet the answer you'll get will never change: it's going to be a big fat no. Quite frankly, I'd like to see your court rule a paid spammer needs to be shut down within seconds of their first post or that they can get reports on people's histories - even if we did give access to temporary juries the process would be bogged by slow action and laziness.

Quite frankly, im tired of this movement of targeting the Mod team. As someone who knows some of them on more personal levels, who was even warned by one such friend, I am thankful for their service. They're unpaid volunteers who keep this site running and clean - they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities and I'd say they're keeping justice as high a standard as any real court would ever do. I would be a liar if I didn't have some concerns, but that's minuscule to what a potential user based court system would do. Such a system would absolutely destroy this site, and that's almost certain. I feel like im just venting after still seeing this argument for days now but I think it's something that needed to be said, though im sure im not the first to say it in this thread.

I agree to an extent, except i'd like to say one thing;

The rules are too broad and vague and you can get banned for your opinion if it is 'trolling'.