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[QUESTION] Does misgendering constitute flaming?

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Stellonia
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[QUESTION] Does misgendering constitute flaming?

Postby Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:58 pm

Some persons on this forum have brought up the claim that deliberately misgendering another individual on this forum is considered to be flaming. Are they correct?
Last edited by Stellonia on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:00 pm

It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
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Postby Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:04 pm

Stellonia wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.


viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.
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Postby Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:11 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Stellonia wrote:I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.


viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.

It could be argued that the terms he and she are derived from sex, as opposed to gender. Dictionary.com defines the word he as "the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male." It defines the word male as "a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man." It could be therefore argued that a person who is biologically male but identifies as female should be referred to as "he", and vice versa.

I wonder if moderation would like to take this argument into account and re-consider its rules on the matter of misgendering.
Last edited by Stellonia on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:17 pm

Stellonia wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.

It could be argued that the terms he and she are derived from sex, as opposed to gender. Dictionary.com defines the word he as "the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male." It defines the word male as "a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man." It could be therefore argued that a person who is biologically male but identifies as female should be referred to as "he", and vice versa.

I wonder if moderation would like to take this argument into account and re-consider its rules on the matter of misgendering.


Let me put it into another argument then: Privacy.

If someone says that they're a man or a woman, who are we to disbelieve that?

We're not aware of other poster's genitals (or their genetic makeup), and we'd like to keep it that way.
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Postby NERVUN » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:41 pm

Stellonia wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.

It could be argued that the terms he and she are derived from sex, as opposed to gender. Dictionary.com defines the word he as "the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male." It defines the word male as "a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man." It could be therefore argued that a person who is biologically male but identifies as female should be referred to as "he", and vice versa.

I wonder if moderation would like to take this argument into account and re-consider its rules on the matter of misgendering.

Please note there is nothing preventing you from making this argument in general on the forum, when applied to specific people, THAT is where the trouble lies and no, we are unlikely to revisit that.
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Postby -The West Coast- » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:43 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
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Postby USS Monitor » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:17 pm

-The West Coast- wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


In practice, what usually happens is that you'll have someone that wants to use a perfectly ordinary pronoun like "she," but someone decides, "You're not really a woman!" and insists on using "he." Or vice versa, where they are called "she" when they prefer "he." Or they get called "he" or "she" when they prefer "they."

I'm not aware of anyone on NS that seriously expects to be referred to using made-up pronouns.
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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:19 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


In practice, what usually happens is that you'll have someone that wants to use a perfectly ordinary pronoun like "she," but someone decides, "You're not really a woman!" and insists on using "he." Or vice versa, where they are called "she" when they prefer "he." Or they get called "he" or "she" when they prefer "they."

I'm not aware of anyone on NS that seriously expects to be referred to using made-up pronouns.


Except possibly when they are in character.
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Postby USS Monitor » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:25 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
In practice, what usually happens is that you'll have someone that wants to use a perfectly ordinary pronoun like "she," but someone decides, "You're not really a woman!" and insists on using "he." Or vice versa, where they are called "she" when they prefer "he." Or they get called "he" or "she" when they prefer "they."

I'm not aware of anyone on NS that seriously expects to be referred to using made-up pronouns.


Except possibly when they are in character.


But I don't think you can get warned for misgendering someone ICly. Or for just ignoring someone's IC persona and referring to the player instead of the character.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:26 am

-The West Coast- wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


Huh? :blink:

Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.
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Postby Idzequitch » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:29 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


Huh? :blink:

Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.

Despite the misleading nature of their name, it turns out that you don't have to be a "pro" to understand pronouns.
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:00 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Stellonia wrote:I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.


viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.


Though it's important to stress that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

There are circumstances under which persistent misgendering may be considered actionable as trolling, and we've tried to set out guidelines over how to judge this often difficult issue; but misgendering isn't inherently actionable.

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Postby Val Halla » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706

That's how far you can tell it.


Though it's important to stress that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

There are circumstances under which persistent misgendering may be considered actionable as trolling, and we've tried to set out guidelines over how to judge this often difficult issue; but misgendering isn't inherently actionable.

I guess it would be entirely unfair if it was an accident, but if someone kept doing it deliberately, it crosses the line then? (In most cases)
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:26 am

Val Halla wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Though it's important to stress that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

There are circumstances under which persistent misgendering may be considered actionable as trolling, and we've tried to set out guidelines over how to judge this often difficult issue; but misgendering isn't inherently actionable.

I guess it would be entirely unfair if it was an accident, but if someone kept doing it deliberately, it crosses the line then? (In most cases)


We would have to judge that in context; I'm not going to type something that's going to be misconstrued as offering a universal precedent.

However, if someone were to keep referring to someone by an incorrect pronoun in an OOC thread despite repeated requests to use a different pronoun, we would certainly look closely at the case.

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Postby Parliamentary Republic 4077 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:45 am

I do believe that this issue of mis-gendering is quite trivial. If a player calls himself a man, then refer to him in accordance with his presented sex. The same holds for a woman. This near automatic action should remove the need for such a rule. In the case a player gives himself a different pronoun from he or she, the respondent is at liberty. He should not be expected to go to any unconventional or extraordinary effort to accommodate that player. Moreover, a player shouldn't be so quick to take offence. In the grander scheme of the correspondence what pronouns the player uses are trivial to the content of his message.

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Postby Elke and Elba » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:18 am

Parliamentary Republic 4077 wrote:I do believe that this issue of mis-gendering is quite trivial. If a player calls himself a man, then refer to him in accordance with his presented sex. The same holds for a woman. This near automatic action should remove the need for such a rule. In the case a player gives himself a different pronoun from he or she, the respondent is at liberty. He should not be expected to go to any unconventional or extraordinary effort to accommodate that player. Moreover, a player shouldn't be so quick to take offence. In the grander scheme of the correspondence what pronouns the player uses are trivial to the content of his message.


You might be missing the point. Possible (and possibly previous):incidents of misgendering includes calling a trans woman a 'he' despite having preferred being called a 'she' repeatedly as a way to flamebait and troll - especially given that it was set hard and fast by the person that she would be liked to have it respected and abided by. Pronouns players use are trivial to the content of the message yes, but if that becomes a point on personally attacking him due to his sex then it becomes something far more important to deal with. And that usually has been the case that mods have had to deal with when it comes to misgendering.

So yes, misgendering is an issue. It isn't about cisgender terms per se, but often steps into realms of deliberate trolling, although it's not totally correlative. It has been a sticking issue for people who refuse to abide here before so I would take great caution in calling it trivial.
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Postby Gregoryisgodistan » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:41 am

It's worth noting I have on multiple occasions referred to Valanora as a "he", both here and on irc, because I keep forgetting she's a (cisgender) woman, and have been repeatedly corrected. Yet I keep forgetting. Whenever someone corrects me, I apologize. Now, maybe I should do a better job at remembering, but I interact with hundreds of NS users, none of whom I have ever met, and it's hard for me to remember all their genders, even after having been told.

If it's something like that, whether they're transgender or cisgender, it's not actionable, or at least that's my understanding. Valanora could be a transwoman for all I know. I doubt it, since she's never indicated that, but either way, I should refer to her as "she." And either way, if I forget and call her "he" once in a while, and then correct myself when called out on my honest mistake, it's not actionable. Or at least that's my understanding.

In other words, if a cisgender individual of the same gender would be unoffended and recognize it as an honest mistake, it's not actionable even if they happen to be transgender. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Being a transgender male/female shouldn't entitle you to any "extra" protections against being misgendered, only the same ones afforded to cisgender individuals of your identified gender. No more, no less. And my understanding is that's how it works here.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:07 am

Gregoryisgodistan wrote:It's worth noting I have on multiple occasions referred to Valanora as a "he", both here and on irc, because I keep forgetting she's a (cisgender) woman, and have been repeatedly corrected. Yet I keep forgetting. Whenever someone corrects me, I apologize. Now, maybe I should do a better job at remembering, but I interact with hundreds of NS users, none of whom I have ever met, and it's hard for me to remember all their genders, even after having been told.

If it's something like that, whether they're transgender or cisgender, it's not actionable, or at least that's my understanding. Valanora could be a transwoman for all I know. I doubt it, since she's never indicated that, but either way, I should refer to her as "she." And either way, if I forget and call her "he" once in a while, and then correct myself when called out on my honest mistake, it's not actionable. Or at least that's my understanding.

In other words, if a cisgender individual of the same gender would be unoffended and recognize it as an honest mistake, it's not actionable even if they happen to be transgender. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Being a transgender male/female shouldn't entitle you to any "extra" protections against being misgendered, only the same ones afforded to cisgender individuals of your identified gender. No more, no less. And my understanding is that's how it works here.

For example, I've been here on NS for so long that in some forums like Sports, I may still be remembered as he and thus misgendering there would be a much lesser offense than misgendering me in General where it is widely known I post in the transgender thread.
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:13 am

Gregoryisgodistan wrote:It's worth noting I have on multiple occasions referred to Valanora as a "he", both here and on irc, because I keep forgetting she's a (cisgender) woman, and have been repeatedly corrected. Yet I keep forgetting. Whenever someone corrects me, I apologize. Now, maybe I should do a better job at remembering, but I interact with hundreds of NS users, none of whom I have ever met, and it's hard for me to remember all their genders, even after having been told.

If it's something like that, whether they're transgender or cisgender, it's not actionable, or at least that's my understanding. Valanora could be a transwoman for all I know. I doubt it, since she's never indicated that, but either way, I should refer to her as "she." And either way, if I forget and call her "he" once in a while, and then correct myself when called out on my honest mistake, it's not actionable. Or at least that's my understanding.

In other words, if a cisgender individual of the same gender would be unoffended and recognize it as an honest mistake, it's not actionable even if they happen to be transgender. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Being a transgender male/female shouldn't entitle you to any "extra" protections against being misgendered, only the same ones afforded to cisgender individuals of your identified gender. No more, no less. And my understanding is that's how it works here.

The problem is (at least with regard to the NSG thread that prompted this question) there are people here who know that the transgender individual identifies as a specific gender, and then these people still use another pronoun, especially as a blatant attempt to flame.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cerillium » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:13 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


Huh? :blink:

Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.

Everypony knows that! Don't be such a neighsayer beeeysayer*, Blaat. :p



*edit courtesy of Wall's good observation below.
Last edited by Cerillium on Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:20 pm

Cerillium wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Huh? :blink:

Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.

Everypony knows that! Don't be such a neighsayer, Blaat. :p

Blaat doesn't go "neigh", he goes "beeey".
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:42 pm

-The West Coast- wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.

You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.


I think the problem strives in when someone, after being told specifically that this person identifies a certain way (and I'm only referring to gender expansive people- transgender men and women, gender fluid, agender and even cispeople- I'm not sure going for ponyness and otherkin matters a bit), they continue to deliberately call them by pronouns they have already explained they do not use for themselves.

See, it isn't difficult. If you misgender someone once and they tell you to please call them ''he/him'', or ''her/she'' or ''they'', you just do that. We make mistakes, and most people are very understanding. But if you continue misgendering after already being corrected, then yes, that constitutes or could constitute flaming and/or trolling.
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