can this image be used as a flag?

[Krajistov SFR]

It's called the Kolovrat, I was wondering if I could use it or not?


The "little sun" is an Early Slavic pagan symbol of the sun god. It was engraved on wooden monuments built near the final resting places of fallen Slavs to represent eternal life.[56] The symbol was first seen in a collection of Early Slavic symbols and architectural features drawn and compiled by Polish painter Stanisław Jakubowski, which he named Prasłowiańskie motywy architektoniczne (Polish: Early Slavic Architectural Motifs).[56] His work of art was published in 1923, by a publishing house that was then based in the Dębniki district of Kraków.[56] Symbol can also be found on embroidery and pottery in most Slavic countries.
Old Russian embroidery

In Russia the symbol is known as a Kolovrat (Russian: Коловрат, lit. "spinning wheel"). Russian neopagans have adopted it as a traditional symbol of the pre-Christian Slavic faith. The neopagans say that Kolovrat is a native Russian name for the swastika as a solar symbol.

Kolovrat has also been appropriated by nationalist organizations and neo-Nazis in Russia, who claim it is an ancient symbol that is exclusive to the East Slavs.

[Farnhamia]

"Kolovrat has also been appropriated by ... neo-Nazis in Russia ..."

So, no.

[Krajistov SFR]

"Kolovrat has also been appropriated by ... neo-Nazis in Russia ..."

So, no.

Neo-Nazi not the Nazis of Nazi Germany, I also sense you have a liberal pro-EU/anti-russian/anti-slavic bias seeing some of your posts which may be blinding your judgement, no offense, although I have no real use for this flag simply other then posting on the role-playing forums and in my factbook.

I must say Russian neo-nazis simply appropriated it from Russian Neo-Pagans and Ultras, it was not used by any SS division in WW2 or the Nazi party, more over the symbol is not a swastika or sig rune it is simply a Russian symbol recognizing Slavic pagan ancestry.

I have seen plenty of people using the Nazi type symbol of the Ukranian Insurgent Army and Right Sector as flags who killed many poles, I have seen people use the whirlwind of the Syrian Social-Nationalist party as flags which looks somewhat like a swastika although it's not it's an obvious neo-nazi based party, so does the Kolovrat really count as a swastika when it is not?

[Krajistov SFR]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=239695

[Rhyfelnydd]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=239695

You can use nazi associated symbols in IC posts, but not on flags IIRC. You could possibly use the flag you want within IC threads but your flag avatar would have to refrain from having them.

[Reploid Productions]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=239695

That is not in a flag. The swastika (and related) ruling applies to flags/nation banners, not to forumside roleplay content, which can be argued/opposed.

While I wouldn't necessarily echo Farn's blanket "No, don't use it." I will note that images that have been co-opted as swastika-dodges by neo-Nazi type groups are more likely to be judged unfavorably as malicious in most contexts, and I'm not seeing sufficient context from your nation page to indicate that it's not just a swastika dodge.

[Farnhamia]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=239695

That is not in a flag. The swastika (and related) ruling applies to flags/nation banners, not to forumside roleplay content, which can be argued/opposed.

While I wouldn't necessarily echo Farn's blanket "No, don't use it." I will note that images that have been co-opted as swastika-dodges by neo-Nazi type groups are more likely to be judged unfavorably as malicious in most contexts, and I'm not seeing sufficient context from your nation page to indicate that it's not just a swastika dodge.

I did mean "No, don't use it as your national flag."

[Reploid Productions]

That is not in a flag. The swastika (and related) ruling applies to flags/nation banners, not to forumside roleplay content, which can be argued/opposed.

While I wouldn't necessarily echo Farn's blanket "No, don't use it." I will note that images that have been co-opted as swastika-dodges by neo-Nazi type groups are more likely to be judged unfavorably as malicious in most contexts, and I'm not seeing sufficient context from your nation page to indicate that it's not just a swastika dodge.

I did mean "No, don't use it as your national flag."

My bad, I thought you meant a more overarching "This symbol is completely banned," I was trying to expand on the explanation some, as I could see some situations where someone could use the emblem in a way that is clearly non-malicious. (I mean hell, there was that time somebody managed to get away with a non-rulebreaking swastika flag.... granted, the swastika was made up of brightly colored My Little Ponies and pretty much impossible to read as malicious. )

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Isn't these type of flags banned because of a few countries or something and their laws?

[Farnhamia]

Isn't these type of flags banned because of a few countries or something and their laws?

Something like that.

[Ikania]

In the same manner as the Kolovrat, the Celtic cross has also been appropriated by Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their cause, but I don't believe they're banned on-site for their usage in Celtic revival, history and such. As well, we see lots of [insert plural form of fasces] on flags, because they are used not only as a fascist symbol but a republican symbol. I think only the swastika and other symbols heavily associated with Nazism should be banned. The Kolovrat and Wolfsangel check out IMO, but that's the mod's choice, I'm just here to point out other symbols that are typically allowed.

[Whovian Tardisia]

I'd love to see that pony swastika because it would be so damn funny. Where can I find it?

[Luna Amore]

I'd love to see that pony swastika because it would be so damn funny. Where can I find it?

Google brings up this:

[Krajistov SFR]

In the same manner as the Kolovrat, the Celtic cross has also been appropriated by Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their cause, but I don't believe they're banned on-site for their usage in Celtic revival, history and such. As well, we see lots of [insert plural form of fasces] on flags, because they are used not only as a fascist symbol but a republican symbol. I think only the swastika and other symbols heavily associated with Nazism should be banned. The Kolovrat and Wolfsangel check out IMO, but that's the mod's choice, I'm just here to point out other symbols that are typically allowed.

Alot of NS Neo-Nazis use the Fasces, but then again Fascism generally doesn't bring up the holocaust image in people's heads like Nazism and it's associated symbols does I guess?

I see a lot of Soviet, North Korean, as well as ISIL and Al-Qaeda imagery being used also, now here is an intresting question can I post this image in a factbook? or is it only for role-plays?

[The Wolven League]

In the same manner as the Kolovrat, the Celtic cross has also been appropriated by Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their cause, but I don't believe they're banned on-site for their usage in Celtic revival, history and such. As well, we see lots of [insert plural form of fasces] on flags, because they are used not only as a fascist symbol but a republican symbol. I think only the swastika and other symbols heavily associated with Nazism should be banned. The Kolovrat and Wolfsangel check out IMO, but that's the mod's choice, I'm just here to point out other symbols that are typically allowed.

Alot of NS Neo-Nazis use the Fasces, but then again Fascism generally doesn't bring up the holocaust image in people's heads like Nazism and it's associated symbols does I guess?

I see a lot of Soviet, North Korean, as well as ISIL and Al-Qaeda imagery being used also, now here is an intresting question can I post this image in a factbook? or is it only for role-plays?

I have not seen anyone with "ISIL" or "al-Qaeda" flags. The people you are likely accusing simply have the "motto" of Islam on their flag, the Shadada.

As for the Soviets, the hammer and sickle does not mean Soviets- it means communism, even if the Soviets made it. Even if people think Hitler was as bad as Stalin (vice/versa), the hammer and sickle represents communism, not the people who led communist nations.

North Korea has not committed mass genoicde like the Nazis; there would be no reason to ban them just because their ideaology was extreme, since they have not really done anything horrific on a massive scale, unlike events like the Holocaust.

[Santaclausisgodistan]

Isn't these type of flags banned because of a few countries or something and their laws?

Something like that.

I don't think that's the reason.... First of all, they're legal in the country where NationStates servers are located, so it really shouldn't be a legal issue. Second, I'm guessing the State flag of Virginia violates indecency laws in Saudi Arabia (and possibly other fundamentalist theocratic dictatorships) due to Lady Justice's exposed breast (even CD's with photos of female pop singers in risque but nevertheless non-breast-exposing outfits require the chest to be sharpied over in Saudi Arabia) but we've already established that's not banned. And AFAIK, we don't ban flags that depict the prophet Mohammed even though those are illegal in a lot of Muslim countries. Hell, my own flag (from my main nation, Gregoryisgodistan) could be considered blasphemey and get me thrown in jail in certain countries.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

Posting with my main so people can see my flag for reference. Obviously it doesn't violate NS policy, but if I lived in Iran or Saudi Arabia or someplace like that, I could go to jail for blasphemy. Or get beheaded. Or whatever they do to blasphemers there. Probably something very unpleasant.

[Farnhamia]

Something like that.

I don't think that's the reason.... First of all, they're legal in the country where NationStates servers are located, so it really shouldn't be a legal issue. Second, I'm guessing the State flag of Virginia violates indecency laws in Saudi Arabia (and possibly other fundamentalist theocratic dictatorships) due to Lady Justice's exposed breast (even CD's with photos of female pop singers in risque but nevertheless non-breast-exposing outfits require the chest to be sharpied over in Saudi Arabia) but we've already established that's not banned. And AFAIK, we don't ban flags that depict the prophet Mohammed even though those are illegal in a lot of Muslim countries. Hell, my own flag (from my main nation, Gregoryisgodistan) could be considered blasphemey and get me thrown in jail in certain countries.

I doubt we have many users, if any, from Saudi Arabia. This site is probably not accessible from there. It is accessible from Germany and other European countries where Nazi, Neo-Nazi and fascist symbolism is against the law, and we'd like to be able to offer our wonderful game and forums to people from those countries.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I don't think that's the reason.... First of all, they're legal in the country where NationStates servers are located, so it really shouldn't be a legal issue. Second, I'm guessing the State flag of Virginia violates indecency laws in Saudi Arabia (and possibly other fundamentalist theocratic dictatorships) due to Lady Justice's exposed breast (even CD's with photos of female pop singers in risque but nevertheless non-breast-exposing outfits require the chest to be sharpied over in Saudi Arabia) but we've already established that's not banned. And AFAIK, we don't ban flags that depict the prophet Mohammed even though those are illegal in a lot of Muslim countries. Hell, my own flag (from my main nation, Gregoryisgodistan) could be considered blasphemey and get me thrown in jail in certain countries.

I doubt we have many users, if any, from Saudi Arabia. This site is probably not accessible from there. It is accessible from Germany and other European countries where Nazi, Neo-Nazi and fascist symbolism is against the law, and we'd like to be able to offer our wonderful game and forums to people from those countries.

IIRC, Arch used the site from Saudi Arabia a few months ago while on an archaeological dig there.

[The Wolven League]

I doubt we have many users, if any, from Saudi Arabia. This site is probably not accessible from there. It is accessible from Germany and other European countries where Nazi, Neo-Nazi and fascist symbolism is against the law, and we'd like to be able to offer our wonderful game and forums to people from those countries.

IIRC, Arch used the site from Saudi Arabia a few months ago while on an archaeological dig there.

Nope- Oman.

IIRC.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

IIRC, Arch used the site from Saudi Arabia a few months ago while on an archaeological dig there.

Nope- Oman.

IIRC.

Oh man, I was wrong.

*crickets*

Sorry, I had to do it.

[Luna Amore]

Nope- Oman.

IIRC.

Oh man, I was wrong.

*crickets*

Sorry, I had to do it.

You should be ashamed of yourself. We need to make bad puns warnable offense.

[New Babylonia]

Alot of NS Neo-Nazis use the Fasces, but then again Fascism generally doesn't bring up the holocaust image in people's heads like Nazism and it's associated symbols does I guess?

I see a lot of Soviet, North Korean, as well as ISIL and Al-Qaeda imagery being used also, now here is an intresting question can I post this image in a factbook? or is it only for role-plays?

I have not seen anyone with "ISIL" or "al-Qaeda" flags. The people you are likely accusing simply have the "motto" of Islam on their flag, the Shadada.

As for the Soviets, the hammer and sickle does not mean Soviets- it means communism, even if the Soviets made it. Even if people think Hitler was as bad as Stalin (vice/versa), the hammer and sickle represents communism, not the people who led communist nations.

North Korea has not committed mass genoicde like the Nazis; there would be no reason to ban them just because their ideaology was extreme, since they have not really done anything horrific on a massive scale, unlike events like the Holocaust.

By that logic, the Swastika shouldn't be banned because the original symbol actually signifies peace and harmony. Yet, like the Hammer and Sickle, it is associated with mass genocide, as people who did just that used the symbol to represents themselves.

Your argument kind of falls apart at that.

[Luna Amore]

By that logic, the Swastika shouldn't be banned because the original symbol actually signifies peace and harmony. Yet, like the Hammer and Sickle, it is associated with mass genocide, as people who did just that used the symbol to represents themselves.

Your argument kind of falls apart at that.

No, it really doesn't. From the sticky in this forum:

A common question is why we don't ban nations that mimic the Soviet Union, or the USA, or some other real-life nation/entity with a violent history. Certainly, you can total up the body count of various real-world countries and arrive at awful totals: the Soviet Union under Stalin, for example. The question we ask is whether a mini-Soviet Union nation appears to celebrate violence against RL people. And the answer is probably no: assuming no specific references to the contrary, most people wouldn't make that association, because the Soviet Union is widely known for much more than butchery.

We judge nation pages in isolation, since the typical viewer is not going to hunt down forum posts or regional activity for clarifying context. So while parody nations are fine, that needs to be reasonably obvious from the nation page alone.

In summary, there's only a problem if we think a reasonable person looking at a nation page will think it's endorsing violence against real-life people. We are not crazy-strict about this. We are fairly sensitive to satire and humor. But when a nation appears to be simply rocking out to how cool it was for real-life country X to kill a bunch of people, we will delete that nation.

This is the site policy and has been for well over a decade. It is established and remarkably easy to abide by. So, like the Dude, let's get abidin'.

[Constantinopolis]

By that logic, the Swastika shouldn't be banned because the original symbol actually signifies peace and harmony. Yet, like the Hammer and Sickle, it is associated with mass genocide, as people who did just that used the symbol to represents themselves.

If the policy was to ban every symbol used by someone who committed mass genocide, we would have to ban almost every political and religious symbol in existence, including the Christian cross, the American flag, the Ottoman/Turkish flag, and many many others.

Which is why that is not the policy. The policy, as posted above, is to ban symbols that scream "I want to murder lots of RL people!" according to the popular perception of the symbol in question in the Western world. So yes, there is an element of subjectivity there - the swastika is banned because it is popularly perceived to mean endorsement of mass murder, whereas other symbols are not so perceived. The Christian cross does not scream "I support crusades to murder infidels and take back Jerusalem!" in the minds of most people, the hammer and sickle does not scream "I want to kill Ukrainian peasants!", and the American flag does not scream "I want to drop atomic bombs on cities full of civilians!", despite all those being things that were actually done under those symbols.

Is that unfair? Maybe. But ultimately, a symbol means what people think it means. There is no "real" meaning for any given set of geometric lines and squiggles. The meaning is in the mind of the beholder. So this site bans symbols according to what is assumed to be in the mind of the beholder. The swastika is banned because we assume that most people looking at it will think it means "I want to murder Jews!" and not "I want to build a really good highway system!", despite the fact that both of these are things the Nazis did.