[Question] Ruling/Rules Clarification

[Panageadom]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=304114#p20886642

Despite being evidently childish, unethical, etc. etc., which rule would this tool actually fall foul of, as Ballo holds?

(Apologies, I'm fully aware that there's a lot of politics around this whole mess, but I, in all honesty, would just like to know what the exact rule situation is)

[Luna Amore]

From the OSRS:

Impersonation: Any attempt to maliciously impersonate another nation or region, including employing a similar name or attempting to hack nation or region passwords, is illegal according to the FAQ. Passing nations from one player to another is legal, but inadvisable as the receiver also inherits any warning history attached to the nation. Impersonation of moderators can lead to immediate deletion.

[The Blaatschapen]

From the OSRS:

Impersonation: Any attempt to maliciously impersonate another nation or region, including employing a similar name or attempting to hack nation or region passwords, is illegal according to the FAQ. Passing nations from one player to another is legal, but inadvisable as the receiver also inherits any warning history attached to the nation. Impersonation of moderators can lead to immediate deletion.

Added to this, also the Regional Happenings Spam. Failing a password attempt is recorded in the regional happenings (eg. http://www.nationstates.net/region=the "328 days ago: Regional test tried to enter the region but did not know the password.")

[Panageadom]

Understood, cheers. Does the first part preclude me from trying to guess the password to a locked region?

[The greater Vakolicci Haven]

I'm sorry, but this ruling is so extremely hazy it's almost wrong.

Guessing a regions password, though creating regional happenings spam, would be only a minor offense. Lots of regional happenings spam probably wouldn't get you deleted, especially as it's only 'conspiracy to commit regional happenings spam.'

Is the problem in the fact that it's being done (guessing a password), or that it's being done by a script?

[The Blaatschapen]

I'm sorry, but this ruling is so extremely hazy it's almost wrong.

Guessing a regions password, though creating regional happenings spam, would be only a minor offense. Lots of regional happenings spam probably wouldn't get you deleted, especially as it's only 'conspiracy to commit regional happenings spam.'

Is the problem in the fact that it's being done (guessing a password), or that it's being done by a script?

It's the hacking a password part that is making the tool illegal.

[The greater Vakolicci Haven]

I'm sorry, but this ruling is so extremely hazy it's almost wrong.

Guessing a regions password, though creating regional happenings spam, would be only a minor offense. Lots of regional happenings spam probably wouldn't get you deleted, especially as it's only 'conspiracy to commit regional happenings spam.'

Is the problem in the fact that it's being done (guessing a password), or that it's being done by a script?

It's the hacking a password part that is making the tool illegal.

The thing is, it depends how you are defining hacking.

Forcing a password, most hackers don't class as hacking, since a person with enough boredom could sit their and do that all day, without a script. Would that be illegal?

[The Blaatschapen]

It's the hacking a password part that is making the tool illegal.

The thing is, it depends how you are defining hacking.

Forcing a password, most hackers don't class as hacking, since a person with enough boredom could sit their and do that all day, without a script. Would that be illegal?

Yes.

[The greater Vakolicci Haven]

The thing is, it depends how you are defining hacking.

Forcing a password, most hackers don't class as hacking, since a person with enough boredom could sit their and do that all day, without a script. Would that be illegal?

Yes.

Weird definition, but it's not my problem so I'll leave you be on it.

[SquareDisc City]

In England and Wales making or distributing a region password cracker would be a violation of section 3A of the Computer Misuse Act 1990. Using it, or even trying to manually guess passwords, would be a violation of section 1. I expect many other jurisdictions have similar laws.

In short, this is stuff you can go to jail for, not just a matter of the site rules.

[Reploid Productions]

Additionally, the tool would violate the scripting rules, which state that a tool cannot change anything in the game world. (Also known as "one action, one click." A tool to automatically continue trying passwords violates this, as one click would generate multiple actions (each individual guess,) and once it found the right one, it would move the nation in, which as mentioned violates the script rules.

In short, the tool would run afoul of multiple rules, and it was really not a wise idea for Afforess to suggest it, even if he was merely joking.

EDIT TO ADD: Just to make it clear, proposing such a tool IS NOT what got Shadow Afforess deleted.

[Glen-Rhodes]

EDIT TO ADD: Just to make it clear, proposing such a tool IS NOT what got Shadow Afforess deleted.

Really?

[Moon Eclipse]

EDIT TO ADD: Just to make it clear, proposing such a tool IS NOT what got Shadow Afforess deleted.

Really?

The distinction, Glen, is proposing a tool versus threatening to use it.

The latter is what got him deleted.

[Reploid Productions]

Really?

The distinction, Glen, is proposing a tool versus threatening to use it.

The latter is what got him deleted.

Bingo. Attempted blackmail with threats of an illegal script that amounts to a hacking tool = maaaajor serious bigtime epic tier bad juju. I'm sure had he merely proposed the tool, Ballo or [v] or even one of us not-techies could have told him flat out that it would qualify as an illegal script, and he probably would have dropped it. It was the blackmail threat that tipped him right over.

[The greater Vakolicci Haven]

Is he on the DoS list, considering his last deletion?

It would be quite bad to see NS++ lack any form of updates.

[Kryozerkia]

Is he on the DoS list, considering his last deletion?

It would be quite bad to see NS++ lack any form of updates.

His future on NationStates is currently under discussion.

In the meantime, there are two other similar tools in development. You can check the Technical forum.

[The greater Vakolicci Haven]

Is he on the DoS list, considering his last deletion?

It would be quite bad to see NS++ lack any form of updates.

His future on NationStates is currently under discussion.

In the meantime, there are two other similar tools in development. You can check the Technical forum.

Ah ok

[Glen-Rhodes]

It was the blackmail threat that tipped him right over.

Okay, but is blackmail only DEAT-worthy when you're threatening to release a hacking tool? Because blackmail is not new in this game.

[Mousebumples]

It was the blackmail threat that tipped him right over.

Okay, but is blackmail only DEAT-worthy when you're threatening to release a hacking tool? Because blackmail is not new in this game.

I've underlined the most important word in your question because that word makes the answer "no." Such decisions are made on a case by case basis; however, threats to release a hacking tool is not reasonably the only situation in which a player that engages in blackmail would find themselves DEAT.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Ok, so we're going to need a pretty detailed explanation, because blackmail has been a tool in NS Gameplay for a very long time.

[Mousebumples]

Ok, so we're going to need a pretty detailed explanation, because blackmail has been a tool in NS Gameplay for a very long time.

If you have something that you think is actionable, file a report. If you're planning to engage in blackmail that you're worried might be actionable, file a query with specifics - perhaps by GHR if security is a concern. Moderation does not engage in hypotheticals.

[Wrapper]

Ok, so we're going to need a pretty detailed explanation, because blackmail has been a tool in NS Gameplay for a very long time.

Seriously? You're going to compare the threat of doing something that's an illegal act in many jurisdictions, with the gameplay threat of being raided?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Ok, so we're going to need a pretty detailed explanation, because blackmail has been a tool in NS Gameplay for a very long time.

If you have something that you think is actionable, file a report. If you're planning to engage in blackmail that you're worried might be actionable, file a query with specifics - perhaps by GHR if security is a concern. Moderation does not engage in hypotheticals.

Moderation engages in clarifying the rules. There is no rule against blackmail.

[Frisbeeteria]

Moderation engages in judgment calls. This was a correct judgment call.

There is no rule against blackmail.

There are no rules against a lot of possible things that we have to look at on an irregular basis. Which is why we've been empowered to use good judgment, and why we've been specifically instructed to blow off rules lawyers requesting detailed lists.

[Mekhet]

Moderation engages in judgment calls. This was a correct judgment call.

There is no rule against blackmail.

There are no rules against a lot of possible things that we have to look at on an irregular basis. Which is why we've been empowered to use good judgment, and why we've been specifically instructed to blow off rules lawyers requesting detailed lists.

I'm pretty sure Glen implies blackmail is used as a political tool in natural politics in Gameplay or other situations that may be similar. If that isn't the case, then he would be referring to blackmail that relates to RL.

If I say to person X, who is a defender and secretly went on a raid that I learned of, that he needs to do this or that or I will inform on him to his defender pals, is this sort of blackmail illegal in general?