NationStates

If I may, I have taken a passive stance observing this situation, but what I have noticed in the previous several situations in which raiders attempted to liberate Haven which has proven to be an egregious attempt to divide the site or drive players off, or drive players at each other into a flamewar. I think that attempts to generate flame wars or completely threaten the balance of NS as is should be extremely discouraged, as the animosity it brings is essentially causing NationStates to be a much less friendly place for everyone. In the resulting conflicts the previous proposals were explicitly done to drive a wedge/divide between roleplayers and gameplay, and it has largely succeeded in what it intended to do, which is destroy any room for compromise in the minds of most players. I think this merely lampshades the problems in the background of NS mechanics and Gameplay Favoritism.

Gameplayers claim all we need to do to keep gameplayers from screwing up our creative work exist in the mechanics of NS gameplay, and yet Gameplayers had the gall to claim that they would use the region of Haven better than the roleplayers who were already using the region in question, which brings forth the question of whether roleplay is actually valued in NS or not? In previous invasions of roleplay regions of Greater Dienestad and Sapphire roleplayers were assured that RP was meant to occupy an equal respect with gameplay, but as we see over and over again, we are not actually given the equal respect that we were so easily assured. Many Gameplayers in the summit promised that Regions would be safe if one had a password, a regional delegate, and an active founder. Greater Dienestad had an active founder and was invaded, Sapphire had a regional delegate and was invaded, and the raiders attempted to liberate Haven and remove the safety of the regional password, which begs the question once more of when will we actually have what we requested as an opt out of the gameplay which we have repeatedly stated is destructive to our written work (which by Max Barry's promise shall be protected as our own original works) and our community which is constantly disrupted by gameplay communities?

Many people are advising roleplay communities to simply move off site because the game moderators, and even Max Barry approve of the destruction of roleplay regions, and is this what it really comes down to? Are Roleplayers and our community ultimately unwelcome in Nationstates? Is our lobby for the fair treatment of roleplayers ultimately in vain and pointless? Is the attempt to ask for fair treatment on behalf of us and asking for the safety and protection of our creative work (which again, Max promised us) also merely lip service? I am seriously concerned with how this continues to over and over again be overlooked. Are we ever going to be treated as equals to gameplayers, in which if we busted into someone else's gameplay threads without welcome and disrupted it with roleplay we would be censured as trolls and punished? So then why are gameplayers allowed to do exactly that without censure? If we look at the previous mentioned material and some of the confessions of moderators, I can see that no, we are not treated fairly and as equals, and I am looking for solutions to this in order to improve the situation in NS. I would rather stay in NS, but if we are ultimately unwelcome here as is proven over and over again by the favoritism of the gameplayers, I am wondering what the next best possible solution is. I am particularly interested in how the moderators feel about this situation, but all players are free to offer their opinions.

Please define what you mean by "Fair".

(-Nephmir)

Fairly as they had assured us that gameplay and roleplay were both equally important in nationstates and thus accommodations would be made so that roleplayers and gameplayers would both be able to enjoy NS. Again many promises were made especially those to protect the integrity of our written work, but when raiders come in and delete the whole contents of the regional message board and its posts, and the links to the creative material in question, we're left with 'we keep our promises only with gameplayers, roleplayers can deal with it' which does not sound fair to me.

Jesus, has all this caused a shitstorm or what?


I think they are both treated equally, and whether that is fair or not is a different discussion.

Crystal Spires wrote:Fairly as they had assured us that gameplay and roleplay were both equally important in nationstates and thus accommodations would be made so that roleplayers and gameplayers would both be able to enjoy NS. Again many promises were made especially those to protect the integrity of our written work, but when raiders come in and delete the whole contents of the regional message board and its posts, and the links to the creative material in question, we're left with 'we keep our promises only with gameplayers, roleplayers can deal with it' which does not sound fair to me.

Well, they can't do anything for roleplayers that can't be manipulated by Raiders/Defenders, liberations and passwords have been weaponized, so can an opt-out. Many solutions would see roleplay be favored over gameplay, which isn't really much better than the current situation.

The promises taken to uphold the integrity of our written work have not been upheld. While they effectively protect our work as copywritten only in roleplay threads, they utterly turn a blind eye when it comes to the regional message board, which is essentially not keeping their promises with protecting the integrity of our work and keeping it fair, I feel. Ultimately there is no favoritism of roleplay because gameplay has been favored entirely over and over again. "Yes, this would effectively protect the work that roleplayers do, but gameplay would be affected" not letting the gameplayers do what? Bother people who do not want to be involved with their game? There are plenty of defender regions and plenty of parties who would happily play their game.

Valrifell wrote:Well, they can't do anything for roleplayers that can't be manipulated by Raiders/Defenders, liberations and passwords have been weaponized, so can an opt-out. Many solutions would see roleplay be favored over gameplay, which isn't really much better than the current situation.

For those 'roleplay' regions (and other regions) that actually have founders currently in existence, a reasonable 'Founder succession' process (allowing Founders to designate [potential] sucessors in advance, just in case) -- such as has been discussed more than once in the Technical forum -- would probably help.

...no, this ought to be common knowledge at this point...

Scolopendra wrote:We've hidden behind the implication of game mechanics while saying "RP and Gameplay are equivalent" for so long that this forces us to admit that, by the powers that be, Gameplay takes precedence--as is indeed implied by the regional game mechanics. We should admit it and own it, as much as it sucks in my old-timer RPer opinion.

[violet] wrote:Another general point I'd like to make--again, relating more to the fundamental idea of separating RP from GP, rather than this founder-succession proposal--is that RP regions are founded in the gameplay world. They create their own space, with a unique culture and rules, in a similar manner to tribes and religions and nations throughout history. But they're rooted in the real world and they never leave it. Whether you're a tribe or a religion or a nation or an NS region, if you create something valuable but don't protect it, the world outside will come to get it. History is littered with tragic examples of remarkable cultures brought low by brute military force. And while you can certainly say this proves there should be fewer military brutes, the fundamental lesson is that security is important. You ignore that at your peril. NationStates isn't a strict simulation, of course, but we do adhere to certain core principles of the real world, and while I don't think every region should have to spend all its time dealing with the fact that bad guys are out there, trying to get in, they should spend some time thinking about it. Because this is the nature of the real world.

No, they're not. It's a consequence of how the R/D game is structured, after all - it wouldn't work without large scale violation of consent. Therefore we get a situation were a small cohort of R/D players ride roughshod over the majority who don't participate in R/D, and in which any additions to the game necessarily perpetuate that state. So speaketh the admins - case closed, end of story.

Ok, this will probably upset some but hey - you wanted some moderator input. Here's mine - with the understanding that it is mine alone, not representative of anyone else, the team, site admins, owner, etc, and that I have always been, and remain, an RP player first and foremost.

I don't like that raiders can come in and tear up a region who wants nothing to do with their shens, or the GP world of NS. I don't like that one group can essentially bully others in that manner, and have it game-sanctioned. It isn't equal in treatment due to the differences that have been previously pointed out - there are two separate functions, with a crossover point that benefits only one side. Whether that is the forums for the RP'ers, or the regional R/D aspect with the GP'ers, it holds true. One side benefits more, and is more visible, in their respective venues.

Not everyone uses their RMB's for fluff, or chatter. Some use it for their RP. I get it. Those folks especially dislike their ongoing stories etc to be interrupted by GP'ers and their suppression of posts, chest-thumping over having invaded, and so on. Not that many appreciate invasion results overall.

That said, since I started playing way back in May 2003, the forums have been the primary point of interaction for RP. And that is where RP can go on without interruption by anyone else, and is protected by site rules that have been in place for a very long time, and can be limited to who is and is not invited to post, and can even have threads archived on request, should the players desire that extra level of protection of their combined creations. In my never-to-be-humble opinion, the RMB should not serve the same purpose. It isn't what it was designed for, that I have ever seen. It is a point of communication for the region members, an excellent source for basic planning, non-sensitive updates, chatter, and what have you.

Opting out would be a wonderful solution, were it not for the mechanics involved in it. How does one guarantee that players and regions involved in opting out stay opted out? What if a player changes their mind and wants to get involved in R/D? How do we properly ensure that players aren't abusing the opt-out option to cheat or gain unfair advantage? Do we treat them like school regions and limit recruitment? Do we limit region-hopping per nation? Too many of those would throw the GP community into chaos, and the programming required to even start on the sub-categories of regions and divisions makes my teeth itch. And I only grasp a part of How It Works(TM).

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a solution that would make everyone happy. Nor am I seeing much 'give' on either side of the argument. Naturally, everyone wants to have it all their way, for their own reasons - I also get that.

That said, numerous safeties and protections have been implemented over the years that did not previously exist, for the sole purpose of enabling players and regions to protect themselves. There was no way to deal with things back in the beginning. So to claim that RP has somehow been slighted in that manner is patently false. I've been around to see the whole thing develop out of nothing - and as a player, was involved in the initial arguments about GP before it was officially a 'thing', let alone a vibrant and active community. One doesn't have to like it, and no, it isn't perfect, but there are methods that can be used effectively. Learn to do so. Adapt and go forward. I've done it myself and never had a problem I couldn't handle - all pre-mod, thanks.

So no - I am not, nor have I ever been much of a fan of raiding. That said, I understand it, the mechanics of it, and the fact that it is as valid a part of NS as any other. And I also understand RP, have been actively involved in it since I joined up, continue to be active, and grasp the frustrations of not having everything exactly the way one wants to due to other group's competing interests.

My advice remains as it has for some time: Use what's available via passwords, founders, and regional controls. Utilize the forums rather than your RMB for RP purposes. Keep your founders active, and if you can't, make sure you have a backup plan. Learn how to refound properly - it can be done, and has been done successfully for years now. And stop wasting so much time barking at the GP'ers, as it only tends to egg a lot of them on and encourage more of an effort on their part to stir the pot. Personally, I'd rather be RP'ing than dealing with regional politics. But that's me. (Not that you should let any actual harassment go without address - simply report it via GHR rather than getting into it with individuals. Much cleaner, much less drama.)

Not perfect, but I'd like to think it's a reasonable compromise given the circumstances.

Great Nepal wrote:...no, this ought to be common knowledge at this point...

Scolopendra wrote:We've hidden behind the implication of game mechanics while saying "RP and Gameplay are equivalent" for so long that this forces us to admit that, by the powers that be, Gameplay takes precedence--as is indeed implied by the regional game mechanics. We should admit it and own it, as much as it sucks in my old-timer RPer opinion.

A little clarification, please: shouldn't that be "the power that is", ie. Max? I thought this was his policy. If it's just the opinion of the admins, that changes my perception of the matter greatly.

Northwest Slobovia wrote:

Great Nepal wrote:...no, this ought to be common knowledge at this point...

A little clarification, please: shouldn't that be "the power that is", ie. Max? I thought this was his policy. If it's just the opinion of the admins, that changes my perception of the matter greatly.

"Powers that be" is just a figure of speech, rather than a literal descriptor.

Reploid Productions wrote:

Northwest Slobovia wrote:A little clarification, please: shouldn't that be "the power that is", ie. Max? I thought this was his policy. If it's just the opinion of the admins, that changes my perception of the matter greatly.

"Powers that be" is just a figure of speech, rather than a literal descriptor.

Just checking. I believe Max has delegated a fair amount of decision-making to Her Amethystine Violetness and the admin team, so I'm sometimes not sure who's calling which shots.

OK I know I'm about to get torn to shreds here but I just gotta point out that even if an RMB is suppressed during a TBR tag raid etc... you can still opt to read the suppressed posts and once you reobtain the delegacy (not hard to do if you were only tagged), you can un-suppress them. Really RMB suppression is just a useless gesture that raiders got used to doing.

Crystal Spires wrote:Fairly as they had assured us that gameplay and roleplay were both equally important in nationstates and thus accommodations would be made so that roleplayers and gameplayers would both be able to enjoy NS. Again many promises were made especially those to protect the integrity of our written work, but when raiders come in and delete the whole contents of the regional message board and its posts, and the links to the creative material in question, we're left with 'we keep our promises only with gameplayers, roleplayers can deal with it' which does not sound fair to me.

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier...

As I thought. They aren't both equal; they are both unique and strong in their own ways, and they should be treated as such. So in this case, no, I would not say that they are treated fair, nor do I think that either one is favored over the other.

Gameplay has long taken precedence as Nathi outlined; Now I've been assured that Moderation is looking for a way to finally get us exempt but such won't come easily, if not then this won't be the last time we see World War 3 erupt across NationStates - as it has happened several times in the past, though it seems to get worst with each time.

Geanna wrote:Gameplay has long taken precedence as Nathi outlined; Now I've been assured that Moderation is looking for a way to finally get us exempt but such won't come easily, if not then this won't be the last time we see World War 3 erupt across NationStates - as it has happened several times in the past, though it seems to get worst with each time.

Nah, you shoulda seen the shitstorms in ages past, especially pre-Influence. In contrast to some of those, the latest kerfluffle involving the doomed attempts to liberate Haven are but a flash in the pan next to those supernovas. Pre-influence, the place would already have been raided, probably emptied and CTEd, mods would have been called in on griefing claims, and there would be tons of rage on both sides over our best subjective guesses regarding who was a raider and needed to be nuked for breaking the raiding rules and who was a native and was thus safe and why didn't we get there sooner to save the region and so on. Wasn't uncommon to have both parties pissed off at mods over the perceived slights or errors made. (And in fairness, given the more primitive mod tools of the time, there were a lot of those sorts of errors- natives being mistaken for griefer raiders following a coup with outside help, raiders using sleepers that got passed as native and so on and so forth. There was a lot of very justified outrage back then, which is what led to Influence to remove moderation from wallowing with only limited usefulness in that quagmire.)

And believe me, R/D to this day pisses me right off. Always has, probably always will, due in part to having to deal with the aforementioned past situation. The problem is, I recognize (and grudgingly accept) that there is no easy answer to magically solve the problem (and similarly, no easy way to ban it outright,) the oldest serving on the mod team and [violet] have been beating our heads on that particular wall trying to come up with something for over a decade now! About the only way to completely isolate a region from gameplay that didn't entail subjective moderation calls would be to literally cut it off from all of the mechanics used for Gameplay: the ability to move regions, and WA membership. In which case, if the founder went inactive, then the entire region would be boned because it would not have any access to the gameplay mechanics needed to either start over with a new region, or to organize behind a password to carry on with the old one. Sure, I suppose you could maybe have such a region gain limited access to gameplay mechanics in said circumstances, which ultimately still puts the place right back at square one; vulnerable to gameplay. Even a solution like founder succession (shot down by those over my head) isn't a perfect solution; what happens if an invader plays the long game, slips a sleeper double agent in, gains the founder's trust and is appointed successor? When that founder CTEs, the region is completely boned with literally no course for redress since the absolute power has been handed to the infiltrator successor.

To an extent, both r/d gameplay and region-based roleplay are emergent play that was never intended by design. (Then again, most of the game today was never intended by design, either. ) Each uses a piece of the game engine to different ends; one side to mimic a sort of combat mechanic, and the other as an organizational and storytelling tool. In some ways, regions (or at least RMBs) are a sub-optimal tool beyond being a place for a group to hang out together, since a RMB is a single thread of discussion; RPing using the forums (or an offsite forum for the region) enables greater ease of running multiple storylines at once and greater ease of checking back through to refer to old material. Plus, in the event of a disaster, forum RP material is completely unaffected if the region was wiped out for any reason. Various chat tools like IRC or Skype can provide better real-time communication, or at least more private communication among a group of people.

Under the system right now (barring stuff being worked on from the summit, like the regional officers idea,) it IS still possible to make your region basically invulnerable to gameplay: even more so than a password, an active founder account and a non-executive delegate renders a region raid-proof. Oh sure, a raid could capture the delegate seat, but to no functional end. Problem is founders can go inactive, a shared founder account could fall prey to an infiltrator or intra-regional drama (one reason our official line on shared puppets is "Sharing is a bad idea, do so at your own risk,") folks don't want to go to the effort or risk the loss of region history and region name to refound or move to a new region to get a new founder, and passwords can be infiltrated or guessed, or potentially liberated, if someone can actually get a raider liberation to pass. (Admittedly, although possible, past history and the recent two attempts on Haven do indicate that the odds of this are vanishingly small.) It's not perfect, and no matter what we add, it will never be perfect, since regions themselves are part of the game engine itself, which is what gameplay uses; any change we make to the engine can be and will be utilized by the gameplay community in some manner.

tl;dr: Reppy hates raiding, but there's no easy fix, and this fact is unbelievably frustrating to just about everybody.

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Not everyone uses their RMB's for fluff, or chatter. Some use it for their RP. I get it. Those folks especially dislike their ongoing stories etc to be interrupted by GP'ers and their suppression of posts, chest-thumping over having invaded, and so on. Not that many appreciate invasion results overall.

fun fact:any spammer can interrupt your RPing unless you make counter measures like making a password

Blood Wine wrote:

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Not everyone uses their RMB's for fluff, or chatter. Some use it for their RP. I get it. Those folks especially dislike their ongoing stories etc to be interrupted by GP'ers and their suppression of posts, chest-thumping over having invaded, and so on. Not that many appreciate invasion results overall.

fun fact:any spammer can interrupt your RPing unless you make counter measures like making a password

Equally fun fact: I never disputed that (in fact, I emphasized it), and you helpfully answered the problem, all in one go. Simply amazing how that works, and coincides with my previous statements concerning solutions that have been put in place to offer some protection to those not wanting to participate.

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:

Blood Wine wrote:
fun fact:any spammer can interrupt your RPing unless you make counter measures like making a password

Equally fun fact: I never disputed that (in fact, I emphasized it), and you helpfully answered the problem, all in one go. Simply amazing how that works, and coincides with my previous statements concerning solutions that have been put in place to offer some protection to those not wanting to participate.

Sorry for the bit of sarcasm
I'm tired of people not using the tools they are given by the game AND the community - like the NS achieve that has all the WFE entries from every day

Reploid Productions wrote:The problem is, I recognize (and grudgingly accept) that there is no easy answer to magically solve the problem (and similarly, no easy way to ban it outright,) the oldest serving on the mod team and [violet] have been beating our heads on that particular wall trying to come up with something for over a decade now!

What does the administration think of my suggestion that raiding might be curtailed a bit if openly 'raider' groups were denied the oxygen of publicity? Abolition of the 'Invader' regional tag; a ban on advertising (and openly recruiting for) and organising the activity in WFEs, RMBs & these forums; a ban on gloating "We have conquered" and "Into the battle rode..." posts about regional takeovers, ditto; Modly action if a whole string of takeovers are followed by the impostion of the same conquerors' flag and embassy links on the seized regions; and so on...
This obviously wouldn't end raiding completely, because the raiders would still be able to recruit & organise through TGs and offsite forums (if the rules used on those forums themselves permit this), but cutting the extent to which they can boast publicly about their successes might lead some of them into switching over to more constructive forms of play instead... and I think that it should have relatively little effect on the more specifically ""meaningful" [and limited in scope] inter-regional warfare, which some people have pointed out would also be affected by any sort of major clampdown on raiding through the actual game-mechanics.
Too much more additional work for the Mods?

So you want to ban us from posting our regional news?

Vaculatestar4 wrote:So you want to ban us from posting our regional news?

I want you to stop seizing -- and often wrecking -- other people's regions. Cutting down on your right to boast about those actions seems one way of deterring you.
No other side of the game gets to force its style of play on other people, so why should raiders have that special privilege?

I suspect we need to change how we roleplay as to make it impervious to raiders as the gameplay has taken mechanical precedent to roleplaying. It's either leave for off-site forums or deal with the raiders. Still, I think there needs to be enforcement on raiders gloating as gloating is forbidden in the forums while on the RMBs it's seemingly acceptable. Raiders who gloat are blatantly displaying their motivation of why they raid and that's to piss people off.

It does seem oddly unjust that the Raider answer to this issue is 'do things which participate in our mechanic, so as to stop us if you can'.

If I'd said 'you have to RP properly, otherwise I'll RP my invasion of your territory, and prevent you from raiding as you'd like', then I'd be laughed at, but that is, more or less, the paradigm in place, in a sense.