[SPLIT] SC Rules/Liberations Discussion

[Animarnia]

No one is askimg them to be thought police we're askimg them to use their experance and the context of the situation to mesure the intent of the author, they do it all the time elsewhere, why should that same standard not apply to Liberations and the SC?

Because C/C/L in the SC is MUCH more complex

The SC/GA are direct politics,which are much more subjective to the person what is and what isn't offensive and what is intended as offensive
For example,I see nothing wrong with the liberate haven proposal,yet many others hate it and want to see it deleted
Mall never intended it to blow up like this,yet it did - Mall can't be blamed for having the intend to piss everyone off because it cannot be proven

Moreso,the SC has a large amount of conventions to abide to - some that may seem strange to people not familiar with its working,a good example for this is the "no commending or condemning yourself" convention,a promising author may think "my region is worthy of commending",write a well thought out proposal,and get shot down for self-commend (sidenote here:obviously there are exceptions to this, SC #30 springs to mind with GRO as co-author)

Liberations are never going to be a happy I affiar, I've already conceeded this in an earlier post. but there is a significant difference between an Liberation Proposal that causes anger as a byproduct, and an Liberation Proposal that causes anger by design, I'm even giving Mall the benifit of the doubt here. (I was one of the few RPers not calling for his head on a pike incidentally) even if Mall did genuinely understimate the level of anger this would cause and lets say he did. the Context here is that shadow proposed the exact same thing that caused that outrage, less than 12 hours after the previous proposal was locked as it failed to meet the floor. Shadows proposal served the purpose of nothing more than rubbing his balls in our face and incite an angry mob. is that really what you want the SC to be used for? is that what you want Liberations to be used for? hell is that the type of community you want to breed here, that its legally acceptable to troll sections of the nationtates community because they are not 'cool'?

Because unlike forum posts, liberations directly affect game mechanics

And what makes game mechanics so special and sacred to be exempt from moderator perview? When asked for a full Opt Out, Rpers were told it would be "Special Prviliage", it's not the answer we wanted but we've took it on the chin by and large even though we've been given no specific reason why that held any water. but using 'Gameplay mechanics' to legally troll certain sections of the community how is that not the very definition of "Special Privilage". other than Word of God saying that Mlitary Gameplay is allowed, what makes it so special that it is to be exempt from the same rules the rest of us have to follow?

[Blood Wine]

You're mistaking my intend,my point here SC shouldn't be held to the same standard as NSG or RP forums

[Animarnia]

You're mistaking my intend,my point here SC shouldn't be held to the same standard as NSG or RP forums

Not so much, I got your Point I just don't think its a fair one, even if we give Mall the benifit of the doubt, Shadows Preposal was for no other Purpose than to rile up and anger a part of the community that were already angry. clearly and specifically deisgned to provoke a backlash rection. and served no other perpose, its like the difference between accidentally straying into a bears cave amd going in there and poking it in the eye with a stick after its already angry. in the first instance your making the bear angry by accident. in the second you are trying to make the bear angry by design.

My Question stands - is that really what you want the SC to be used for, is that the type of community enviroment we want where sections of it are legally allowed to willfully and purposefully taunt other sections of it because they are seen as "Lesser" or "not important" or "Not as valued" or "not cool". Is that really what you wish to see Liberations used for and what makes the SC and by extension Military gameplay so special that it should be exempt from Moderator oversight and not have to follow the same rules as the rest of the forum?

[Blood Wine]

I can turn that question around to you,what makes you feel (as a RPer) that you can dictate what rules to follow for the GP community?

I mean,the only reason Mall the mod is under fire is because he is a raider,the RP community jumped on this chance to try and get him to resign,not because he did something wrong with his mod powers (one of the few reasons a mod should be removed) but because he is a raider

[Elke and Elba]

You're mistaking my intend,my point here SC shouldn't be held to the same standard as NSG or RP forums

Oh, and by extension GA too?

Then what's the use of authors trying so hard to 1) care about different species, 2) act as different species (Bears Armed and PPU, notably, and the Wrapper - non-species, and Infected(?) Microorganisms), and 3) write so much in GA that take into account different species?

I don't even know if you have any idea what SC or GA is, really. And since you don't, as well as not have the same idea of RP (NSG's totally OOC, m'gosh), then what makes you qualified to convey such a statement?

[Animarnia]

I can turn that question around to you,what makes you feel (as a RPer) that you can dictate what rules to follow for the GP community?

I mean,the only reason Mall the mod is under fire is because he is a raider,the RP community jumped on this chance to try and get him to resign,not because he did something wrong with his mod powers (one of the few reasons a mod should be removed) but because he is a raider

I'm not trying to dictate any rules, nor am I in a position to do so. but the Rules as they stand are supposed to be applicable to everyone, not just Rpers or GAers or WAers or Raiders or Defenders, or Generalites- everyone. Thats an important concept. The Rules protect as much as they confine, thats what they are supposed to do, Gampeplayers seem to think Rpers are asking for special treatment, however Rpers see it that Gameplayers are already getting Special Treatment and eventually someone is going to ask If they don't have to follow the rules, why should we? Then Choas ensues, the center will not hold and all anachay is loosed upon the forums. The rules protect everyone and are enfored equally or they protect no one and no one will follow them because they become morraly bankrupt.

What has angered Rpers so much isn't that Mall is a radier, its that he tried to force a collective section of the community into a game none of us want to play let me be clear - we don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, to be blunt - we simply do not care. Ironically, You seem to think I have it in for Mall I'm acctually one of the few people not caling for Malls head though and I'm even willing to extend him the benift of the doubt over this whole mess, Shadow not so much. Reposting "Liberate" Haven was the equivilent of Teabagging the entire RP community.

[Blood Wine]

I can turn that question around to you,what makes you feel (as a RPer) that you can dictate what rules to follow for the GP community?

I mean,the only reason Mall the mod is under fire is because he is a raider,the RP community jumped on this chance to try and get him to resign,not because he did something wrong with his mod powers (one of the few reasons a mod should be removed) but because he is a raider

I'm not trying to dictate any rules, nor am I in a position to do so. but the Rules as they stand are supposed to be applicable to everyone, not just Rpers or GAers or WAers or Raiders or Defenders, or Generalites- everyone. Thats an important concept. The Rules protect as much as they confine, thats what they are supposed to do, Gampeplayers seem to think Rpers are asking for special treatment, however Rpers see it that Gameplayers are already getting Special Treatment and eventually someone is going to ask If they don't have to follow the rules, why should we? Then Choas ensues, the center will not hold and all anachay is loosed upon the forums. The rules protect everyone and are enfored equally or they protect no one and no one will follow them because they become morraly bankrupt.

What has angered Rpers so much isn't that Mall is a radier, its that he tried to force a collective section of the community into a game none of us want to play let me be clear - we don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, to be blunt - we simply do not care. Ironically, You seem to think I have it in for Mall I'm acctually one of the few people not caling for Malls head though and I'm even willing to extend him the benift of the doubt over this whole mess, Shadow not so much. Reposting "Liberate" Haven was the equivilent of Teabagging the entire RP community.

(not to attack you,but are you on a phone?,I'm seeing a lot of red lines,I don't mind but other people do >.>)

I wonder though,how is GP getting special treatment? sure there are a few extra ingame rules,but those both hinder and benefit GP and are there for everyone as well - I've never seen any mod make a unfair ruling based on GP,R/D or RP

Actually,I assumed you didn't have it in for Mall,since you seem like a really reasonable and pleasant person to talk to

What Shadow did was borderline trolly,and I wish he wouldn't have done it,this situation is silly enough already,I find it weird that if Mall does something wrong,everyone calls for his resignation,how do you explain that?

You're mistaking my intend,my point here SC shouldn't be held to the same standard as NSG or RP forums

Oh, and by extension GA too?

Then what's the use of authors trying so hard to 1) care about different species, 2) act as different species (Bears Armed and PPU, notably, and the Wrapper - non-species, and Infected(?) Microorganisms), and 3) write so much in GA that take into account different species?

I don't even know if you have any idea what SC or GA is, really. And since you don't, as well as not have the same idea of RP (NSG's totally OOC, m'gosh), then what makes you qualified to convey such a statement?

Could you please stop flying under the radar with grey area insults? It's starting to piss me off

You're missing the point,SC is a different culture,like the RP culture the community is so prideful off,or NSG

[Avenio]

I can turn that question around to you,what makes you feel (as a RPer) that you can dictate what rules to follow for the GP community?

A few threads ago, raiders were arguing that the rules of R/D mechanics were the rules for everyone - that like it or not we're participants in the 'game'. And now you're complaining that people are taking it onto their own shoulders to change the rules to make their lives as unwilling majority better? I'd call that self-serving if it wasn't so blatantly hypocritical.

[Blood Wine]

I can turn that question around to you,what makes you feel (as a RPer) that you can dictate what rules to follow for the GP community?

A few threads ago, raiders were arguing that the rules of R/D mechanics were the rules for everyone - that like it or not we're participants in the 'game'. And now you're complaining that people are taking it onto their own shoulders to change the rules to make their lives as unwilling majority better? I'd call that self-serving if it wasn't so blatantly hypocritical.

If you look at the previous post I made,I'm arguing this as well

I'm aiming at something akin to "the RP community suddenly decides raiders only can have 5 endorsements at most",the RP community shouldn't dictate what GP does and visa versa

I would say defenders are the best representatives of the native community,and natives should for the most part (read:most) keep out of discussions regarding GP mechanics due to insufficient experience
Same goes for GP,we shouldn't decide RP mechanics because we lack the knowledge

Honestly,there is a middle ground somewhere,and disgruntled natives just make the discussions messier,resulting in more anger from everyone and not a lot of results (obvious exception is if a natives actually does research on the subject,but i doubt any of them does this)

[Sdaeriji]

If you look at the previous post I made,I'm arguing this as well

I'm aiming at something akin to "the RP community suddenly decides raiders only can have 5 endorsements at most",the RP community shouldn't dictate what GP does and visa versa

Why not? The whole crux of the raider argument is that we're all subject to GP rules, whether we like it or not. Given that, why shouldn't we work to change those rules to be more in our favor? It cuts both ways.

[Blood Wine]

If you look at the previous post I made,I'm arguing this as well

I'm aiming at something akin to "the RP community suddenly decides raiders only can have 5 endorsements at most",the RP community shouldn't dictate what GP does and visa versa

Why not? The whole crux of the raider argument is that we're all subject to GP rules, whether we like it or not. Given that, why shouldn't we work to change those rules to be more in our favor? It cuts both ways.

See the part you didn't quote for that answer

[Sdaeriji]

Why not? The whole crux of the raider argument is that we're all subject to GP rules, whether we like it or not. Given that, why shouldn't we work to change those rules to be more in our favor? It cuts both ways.

See the part you didn't quote for that answer

You didn't answer. If we're all subjected to GP rules, then why shouldn't we all have a say in those rules?

[Blood Wine]

See the part you didn't quote for that answer

You didn't answer. If we're all subjected to GP rules, then why shouldn't we all have a say in those rules?

You''re subject to GP mechanics,everyone is subject to normal rules

[Urcea]

You''re subject to GP mechanics,everyone is subject to normal rules

That's the issue at hand here.

[Sdaeriji]

You didn't answer. If we're all subjected to GP rules, then why shouldn't we all have a say in those rules?

You''re subject to GP mechanics,everyone is subject to normal rules

Well, not exactly. The one takeaway from this whole Liberate Haven fiasco is that different aspects of this site are subject to different rules. In my section of this game, Shadow Afforess' thread would have picked up a quick ban for trolling, but in the SC forum that's not the case.

You aren't answering my question. If I'm subject to GP whether I like it or not, why shouldn't I try to change GP to accommodate me more, at your expense? If we're all participants in GP despite our actual desire to be, then we all have an interest in the rules of GP.

[Blood Wine]

You''re subject to GP mechanics,everyone is subject to normal rules

Well, not exactly. The one takeaway from this whole Liberate Haven fiasco is that different aspects of this site are subject to different rules. In my section of this game, Shadow Afforess' thread would have picked up a quick ban for trolling, but in the SC forum that's not the case.

You aren't answering my question. If I'm subject to GP whether I like it or not, why shouldn't I try to change GP to accommodate me more, at your expense? If we're all participants in GP despite our actual desire to be, then we all have an interest in the rules of GP.

Afforess thread is subjective,some see trolling some not,I see it as borderline

Do you actively partake in GP? do you raid/defend or take proper security measures?

And would you like if I started changing RP at your expensive to accommodate me more because I read a RP?

[Sdaeriji]

Well, not exactly. The one takeaway from this whole Liberate Haven fiasco is that different aspects of this site are subject to different rules. In my section of this game, Shadow Afforess' thread would have picked up a quick ban for trolling, but in the SC forum that's not the case.

You aren't answering my question. If I'm subject to GP whether I like it or not, why shouldn't I try to change GP to accommodate me more, at your expense? If we're all participants in GP despite our actual desire to be, then we all have an interest in the rules of GP.

Afforess thread is subjective,some see trolling some not,I see it as borderline

Do you actively partake in GP? do you raid/defend or take proper security measures?

And would you like if I started changing RP at your expensive to accommodate me more because I read a RP?

I do actively partake in GP. That's your whole argument; that I'm participating in GP all the time whether I want to or not.

I couldn't care less if you started changing RP, as that's not my game. But, if you're not a participant in RP, why should you get a say in it? Reading isn't participating.

[Blood Wine]

Afforess thread is subjective,some see trolling some not,I see it as borderline

Do you actively partake in GP? do you raid/defend or take proper security measures?

And would you like if I started changing RP at your expensive to accommodate me more because I read a RP?

I do actively partake in GP. That's your whole argument; that I'm participating in GP all the time whether I want to or not.

I couldn't care less if you started changing RP, as that's not my game. But, if you're not a participant in RP, why should you get a say in it? Reading isn't participating.

My entire point is:if you're not an active (natives are commonly passive) participant in GP,why would you change the rule without knowledge of the subject matter? would you attempt to do nuclear fission without studying?

[Nierr]

Comparing gameplay to nuclear fission is just stupid.

[Sdaeriji]

I do actively partake in GP. That's your whole argument; that I'm participating in GP all the time whether I want to or not.

I couldn't care less if you started changing RP, as that's not my game. But, if you're not a participant in RP, why should you get a say in it? Reading isn't participating.

My entire point is:if you're not an active (natives are commonly passive) participant in GP,why would you change the rule without knowledge of the subject matter? would you attempt to do nuclear fission without studying?

Gameplay can't kill me, so that's a stupid comparison. I voice my opinion in real life all the time without being an expert. I vote, I lobby, etc. I don't have to be an expert or active participant in industrial dumping to know I'm opposed to it, or lend my support in opposition to it.

I am active in gameplay. We all are, to differing degrees. That's the fundamental argument supporting the status quo: we're all playing the raiding game, whether we like it or not. Why should we subjected to the rules of your game but not have a say in them?

[Animarnia]

I'm not trying to dictate any rules, nor am I in a position to do so. but the Rules as they stand are supposed to be applicable to everyone, not just Rpers or GAers or WAers or Raiders or Defenders, or Generalites- everyone. Thats an important concept. The Rules protect as much as they confine, thats what they are supposed to do, Gampeplayers seem to think Rpers are asking for special treatment, however Rpers see it that Gameplayers are already getting Special Treatment and eventually someone is going to ask If they don't have to follow the rules, why should we? Then Choas ensues, the center will not hold and all anachay is loosed upon the forums. The rules protect everyone and are enfored equally or they protect no one and no one will follow them because they become morraly bankrupt.

What has angered Rpers so much isn't that Mall is a radier, its that he tried to force a collective section of the community into a game none of us want to play let me be clear - we don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, to be blunt - we simply do not care. Ironically, You seem to think I have it in for Mall I'm acctually one of the few people not caling for Malls head though and I'm even willing to extend him the benift of the doubt over this whole mess, Shadow not so much. Reposting "Liberate" Haven was the equivilent of Teabagging the entire RP community.

(not to attack you,but are you on a phone?,I'm seeing a lot of red lines,I don't mind but other people do >.>)

I wonder though,how is GP getting special treatment? sure there are a few extra ingame rules,but those both hinder and benefit GP and are there for everyone as well - I've never seen any mod make a unfair ruling based on GP,R/D or RP

Actually,I assumed you didn't have it in for Mall,since you seem like a really reasonable and pleasant person to talk to

What Shadow did was borderline trolly,and I wish he wouldn't have done it,this situation is silly enough already,I find it weird that if Mall does something wrong,everyone calls for his resignation,how do you explain that?

(No Offense taken Firefox has been screwing up all my posts since the v29 update, there is something wrong with the Auto-Correct in it I think, it keeps "Correcting" to the wrong thing, I think its the plugin I installed to reset my theme to Classic instead of the Chrome Rip-off, its annoying me too. just try to bare with it til I fix it but my applogises in the mean time)

Because if GP and the SC by extension are not subject to the same rules as everyone else that is inherently special treatment. a lack of enforcment for certain groups is is same as a bias of enforcement. its called Complicity by Silence. The only reason people follow rules, any rules, be it on a forum or actual laws is because part of them respects the moral authority of those enforcing them and that they are enforced equally and evenly to all. once that stops, people lose respect for that moral authority.

Well Ta, I'm enjoying having civil discorse with you too. because thats the only way any of this is going to be solved, Right now it feels a lot like there is this big high wall between Gameplayers and Rpers. Sound Proof! we can't talk to each other, but we can sure as hell lob Grenades!

To understand why everyone was so mad at Mall you have to understand what Haven is, back in the day of the old Jolt Forums, Haven was considered by many to be the cream of the Rping Crop, much like you GPers have the Black Riders, or the UDL. Haven was the RP Region everyone wanted to prove there metal worthy enough to join. Since then many Havenites have left the Forums here, for one reason or another, many in disgust after the first "Liberate Haven" back in 2010, when Liberations were first allowed and the Moderators failed to do anything to protect them. Haven has been around so long its an historical monument to the RPing Community, whether you agree with them or not, attempting to "Liberate" them is like attacking a site of historical significance or national monument. So trying to "Liberate" them was always going to cause a mess. Now, throw in that for years we've been told "Rp is Equal to GP" Add to that already boiling pot Mall is a Moderator, This recent "Liberation" was taken by many Rpers as a big "Fuck you, Rpers Don't matter on Nationstates" from the moderaton staff as a whole. as a player he should have known better. as a Moderator he Absoloutly should have known better. Now, people are calling for him to resign because as a Moderator its his job to keep the peace not cause conflict and he has damaged the Moral Authority of the Moderators as a collective by doing so. Personally I think he made a mistake and should not lose his modship over it, however if we are to enforce the rules equally he should be censured at least for a period of time.

You can certainly argue the merits of Malls Proposal (many of us did for and against). You can even say maybe he genuinely did not know it would cause so much trouble and have a decent case for that However, once it failed to reach quorum, despite the scale of the backslash and the Political Shitstorm that would follow, the riot at that point had run its course. at this point everyone is thinking "Its finally over", then less than 12 hours later Shadow proposes the exact same thing, re-opening a pussfilled gaping wound that just keeps on giving. given the context the second proposal was for no purpose other than trolling.

If you look at the previous post I made,I'm arguing this as well

I'm aiming at something akin to "the RP community suddenly decides raiders only can have 5 endorsements at most",the RP community shouldn't dictate what GP does and visa versa

I would say defenders are the best representatives of the native community,and natives should for the most part (read:most) keep out of discussions regarding GP mechanics due to insufficient experience
Same goes for GP,we shouldn't decide RP mechanics because we lack the knowledge

Honestly,there is a middle ground somewhere,and disgruntled natives just make the discussions messier,resulting in more anger from everyone and not a lot of results (obvious exception is if a natives actually does research on the subject,but i doubt any of them does this)

To be honest I mostly Agree with you actually, the majority of us would love to be able to just stay out of your way, we keep out of your bussiness and we'll stay out of yours We don't want to do GP. You don't want to RP. Thats fine but Greater Dinistad (a Big active RP Region) was raided just 6 months ago. You have to take into account that Rpers have been told, repeatadly that a full Opt out is not going to ever happen. We've never really been given a solid reason for why, but I suspect Word of God. What you also must understand is that Sdaeriji is correct, we've been told 'From on high' that GP is the correct way to play the game and from Raiders "Tough shit" that GP applies to us, regardless, so in Effect Raiders only really have themselves to blaime - they dragged us here kicking and screaming to this point, now they have our attention though perhaps not in the way they would have liked.