[Discussion] "Contentious" Flag

[Scolopendra]

We were essentially told that passwords WERE our opt-out and then, in the form of a pseudo-trolling by a Mod no less, we were told "Fuck you, they're not." We're being told that in order to not play the game we have to play the game. See what I mean?

Oh, I certainly do. This is part and parcel of my frustration: passwords have always been an imperfect opt-out and we spun them as though they are. We say "oh, RP and Gameplay are both equivalently valid and welcome and valuable methods to play" and the way regional mechanics work--are allowed to work--pretty much puts the lie to that.

I completely and understandably get the rage. From behind closed doors, I've reasoned, argued, cajoled, delivered, and shouted that rage to power for ten years.

Ten.

Years.

And this is where it's got us.

In all honesty, it's always been "in order to not play the game we have to play the game"--Gameplay is king; it's baked in right from the foundations up with how regional mechanics--not even capital-G Gameplay mechanics, just the bare-bones code--work. That's why that quote of mine that someone somewhere has in their sig has me saying that 'abusing the system is the game;' originally UN Delegates were just one step up from UN Members and regions had no controls, but people could move between them and they did, 'crashing' and 'camping' and 'squatting' and making themselves unwelcome. The Delegates were given regional controls to deal with the crashers/squatters/campers and then that meant that if the campers were UN Members themselves they could steal the Delegacy and kick everyone else out in regional griefing. We had to get elbows deep into ajudicating the difference between regional drama and for-the-lulz griefing, and that was horrendous, so we added Influence and Founders and passwords: Founders and passwords as something /like/ an opt out, and Influence to remove judgment calls regarding regional refounds. So of course Gameplay organizations used these tools themselves to build 'impenetrable' fortresses even as they figured out ways around the passwords by lurking and Founders by waiting for them to cease to exist. Liberations came up as a way to open up captured regions that were passworded, but of course, as we've all been made extremely aware as of late, that sword cuts two ways and can be used as a weapon of liberation or of violence depending on the whim of WA delegates and members.

Every single tool we've come up with to address the problem of--in my opinion--a certain level of interactional jerkery has only been incorporated into Gameplay, and TPTB dig that. They think it's cool and clever. I'll agree so far as it's clever.

So to bring my ramble back to full circle after the history lesson, the truth really is Gameplay uber alles; we've (the mods and admins) have only hidden that fact behind its implication in the code even while we say (and mean, in most cases) that everybody's equal and contributes value. We're as philosophically inconsistent as anyone else, especially when we think that we're trying to do the right thing. Fact of the matter is that, albeit without malice, you've been sold a bill of goods. We should come right out and say what the game mechanics prove: Gameplay takes precedence.

We don't, other than my occasional grumbling (someone found a link to where I admitted my opinion on R/D yonks ago) and we as mods-and-admin set ourselves up for this. This is the bed we've made, and if I've got anything to say about it (doubtful), we'll sleep in it because it's only fair.

I'm going to again point out that mods have no control over game mechanics. The hierarchy of the firmament is The Boss -> [violet] -> admin -> mods -> mentors (kinda sorta).

In short, I get your rage (I feel it too), but don't look at me, mac. I've been making your argument since nine years before your current account was made. 'S even more important that I point this out given the out-of-context quote in your sig.

Nothing personal. I'd be quoting the same thing if it was Nerv or Farn who said it.

It's less "taking it personally" and more "outside of context it almost looks like I approve, when the intended tone was a gritted-teeth grimace."

[Constaniana]

We were essentially told that passwords WERE our opt-out and then, in the form of a pseudo-trolling by a Mod no less, we were told "Fuck you, they're not." We're being told that in order to not play the game we have to play the game. See what I mean?

Oh, I certainly do. This is part and parcel of my frustration: passwords have always been an imperfect opt-out and we spun them as though they are. We say "oh, RP and Gameplay are both equivalently valid and welcome and valuable methods to play" and the way regional mechanics work--are allowed to work--pretty much puts the lie to that.

I completely and understandably get the rage. From behind closed doors, I've reasoned, argued, cajoled, delivered, and shouted that rage to power for ten years.

Ten.

Years.

And this is where it's got us.

In all honesty, it's always been "in order to not play the game we have to play the game"--Gameplay is king; it's baked in right from the foundations up with how regional mechanics--not even capital-G Gameplay mechanics, just the bare-bones code--work. That's why that quote of mine that someone somewhere has in their sig has me saying that 'abusing the system is the game;' originally UN Delegates were just one step up from UN Members and regions had no controls, but people could move between them and they did, 'crashing' and 'camping' and 'squatting' and making themselves unwelcome. The Delegates were given regional controls to deal with the crashers/squatters/campers and then that meant that if the campers were UN Members themselves they could steal the Delegacy and kick everyone else out in regional griefing. We had to get elbows deep into ajudicating the difference between regional drama and for-the-lulz griefing, and that was horrendous, so we added Influence and Founders and passwords: Founders and passwords as something /like/ an opt out, and Influence to remove judgment calls regarding regional refounds. So of course Gameplay organizations used these tools themselves to build 'impenetrable' fortresses even as they figured out ways around the passwords by lurking and Founders by waiting for them to cease to exist. Liberations came up as a way to open up captured regions that were passworded, but of course, as we've all been made extremely aware as of late, that sword cuts two ways and can be used as a weapon of liberation or of violence depending on the whim of WA delegates and members.

Every single tool we've come up with to address the problem of--in my opinion--a certain level of interactional jerkery has only been incorporated into Gameplay, and TPTB dig that. They think it's cool and clever. I'll agree so far as it's clever.

So to bring my ramble back to full circle after the history lesson, the truth really is Gameplay uber alles; we've (the mods and admins) have only hidden that fact behind its implication in the code even while we say (and mean, in most cases) that everybody's equal and contributes value. We're as philosophically inconsistent as anyone else, especially when we think that we're trying to do the right thing. Fact of the matter is that, albeit without malice, you've been sold a bill of goods. We should come right out and say what the game mechanics prove: Gameplay takes precedence.

We don't, other than my occasional grumbling (someone found a link to where I admitted my opinion on R/D yonks ago) and we as mods-and-admin set ourselves up for this. This is the bed we've made, and if I've got anything to say about it (doubtful), we'll sleep in it because it's only fair.

Nothing personal. I'd be quoting the same thing if it was Nerv or Farn who said it.

It's less "taking it personally" and more "outside of context it almost looks like I approve, when the intended tone was a gritted-teeth grimace."

Alright.

[Punkvania]

As someone who has been away from the forums for only a couple of days, can someone please tell me what this issue is all about? Is this just about Mall playing the game or what?

[Ambroscus Koth]

I feel for the RP community only because they have been misled into thinking that their temporary defense systems they were granted were actually an opt-out. It was basically lying to their face, presumably to avoid the sort of rage that's happening now from happening then.

As a Gameplayer, however, that's as far as my sympathy goes.

[Constaniana]

As someone who has been away from the forums for only a couple of days, can someone please tell me what this issue is all about? Is this just about Mall playing the game or what?

It's Mall trying to force an old, respected RP region to play a game they've done everything to avoid by removing their password against the native's will so raiders can "Do more interesting things" with Haven, since the roleplaying going on there is obviously not important enough.

[Scolopendra]

It was basically lying to their face, presumably to avoid the sort of rage that's happening now from happening then.

Almost exactly--the difference being that we thought it was a sufficient opt-out. Then the Law of Unintended Consequences walked up, looked us over, grinned, and planted a boot in our collective dick.

Y'know, as usual.

[Punkvania]

As someone who has been away from the forums for only a couple of days, can someone please tell me what this issue is all about? Is this just about Mall playing the game or what?

It's Mall trying to force an old, respected RP region to play a game they've done everything to avoid by removing their password against the native's will so raiders can "Do more interesting things" with Haven, since the roleplaying going on there is obviously not important enough.

So it isn't Mall using his mod powers but acting on his nation's interests? That seems totally fine to me dude. Why are people freaking out about this?

[Ambroscus Koth]

If I'm correct, however, was this not something that [violet] foresaw when the Liberation function was added? I'll look for the post, but I'm pretty sure that she was fully prepared for the day when the Liberation proposal would be used aggressively. If this is the case then this not just some fluke, but something that the admins were expecting...which raises a lot more questions about why they thought that passwords were a sufficient "opt-out".

[Constaniana]

It's Mall trying to force an old, respected RP region to play a game they've done everything to avoid by removing their password against the native's will so raiders can "Do more interesting things" with Haven, since the roleplaying going on there is obviously not important enough.

So it isn't Mall using his mod powers but acting on his nation's interests? That seems totally fine to me dude. Why are people freaking out about this?

It's a moderator acting in a way that infuriates a large portion of the player base, and some people are saying officials on this site should be held to a higher standard.

[Aurora Confederacy]

As someone who has been away from the forums for only a couple of days, can someone please tell me what this issue is all about? Is this just about Mall playing the game or what?

It's Mall trying to force an old, respected RP region to play a game they've done everything to avoid by removing their password against the native's will so raiders can "Do more interesting things" with Haven, since the roleplaying going on there is obviously not important enough.

if RP is so "un umportant" why have we got a section dedicated to RPing at the top, and one at the bottom?

answer: Because our RPing IS important, be it in ge&t, sports or what ever.

and as a Moderator, the emphasis should be on Moderate aka neutral, and thus unbiased, therefore in the eyes of many, Mall has kinda overstepped the boundary.

[Ambroscus Koth]

viewtopic.php?p=1524005#p1524005

Found it. From 2010 no less, this is an olllldddd issue

[Punkvania]

So it isn't Mall using his mod powers but acting on his nation's interests? That seems totally fine to me dude. Why are people freaking out about this?

It's a moderator acting in a way that infuriates a large portion of the player base, and some people are saying officials on this site should be held to a higher standard.

He may be a mod but he also is a nation playing the game. We trust him as a real-life person to help keep the forums a little more civil, but as a nation he has the right to be as malevolent as he wants.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's Mall trying to force an old, respected RP region to play a game they've done everything to avoid by removing their password against the native's will so raiders can "Do more interesting things" with Haven, since the roleplaying going on there is obviously not important enough.

if RP is so "un umportant" why have we got a section dedicated to RPing at the top, and one at the bottom?

answer: Because our RPing IS important, be it in ge&t, sports or what ever.

and as a Moderator, the emphasis should be on Moderate aka neutral, and thus unbiased, therefore in the eyes of many, Mall has kinda overstepped the boundary.

You're not important enough to bend the rules to your will. This thread is not your soapbox, however, it's a discussion about contentious flags (R.I.P. my flawless mod record ;w;)

[Rodrania]

Does all of this mean that I will get a warning because I'm using this flag?

What the hell?

[Aurora Confederacy]

Argument: RP players should not have to deal with Gameplay.

We do aim to ensure that players who want to completely isolate themselves from the I/D game can do so. That is part of the NS philosophy. The chief tool we give players in this regard is Founders: a region with an active Founder is essentially immune to invasion. We also provide regional passwords and the ability for Delegates & Founders to eject and ban residents.

Complete isolation is not possible, though, since all regions have their feet in Gameplay (even if their heads are elsewhere). Regions are defined and governed by Gameplay rules. All this is very low-level and not at all central to why RP regions exist, of course, but you enter Gameplay the second you create a nation.

Thus, while we support the right of communities to isolate themselves, we cannot always allow them to do so in the exact manner they want, because their link with Gameplay is inextricable.

that is the issue that In many people's eyes, Mall has tried to circimvent, whether he says its for revenge or not, its really not the done thing to, as a moderator, try and openly rip the door down. had he used a puppet, cances are it would have never created the stink it has

[Scolopendra]

Does all of this mean that I will get a warning because I'm using this flag?

What the hell?

No.

[Rodrania]

Does all of this mean that I will get a warning because I'm using this flag?

What the hell?

No.

Phew

Thanks for clearing out my fears :3

[Aurora Confederacy]

well what also got up peoples nose, Im guessing is several of us using the same protest flag.

[Punkvania]

Does all of this mean that I will get a warning because I'm using this flag?

What the hell?

Unless I am missing something and it is actually from some racist/sexist/homophobic meme... Your flag is fine bro. What I don't understand is this hate for Mall all of a sudden.

[Scolopendra]

No problem. Spread the word, if you could, so we can make sure everyone's up on the latest evolution of the situation.

[The Candy Lane]

This is actually why we not only allow but encourage these discussions. Despite what perhaps the more cynical among us, me included, may say, sometimes something really does shake out of them. Better ways to do things, or more reasonable (or at least justifiable) perspectives outside of our own heads.

snip...

Please do keep it civil--not a warning, just a recommendation. We're making progress!

There's more to this then just cleaning up messes. I think by issuing an apology, you've shown that you have some integrity and humility, and I respect that. Moderating is about integrity and being trusted by the wider community. If that trust is gone then it's nearly impossible to be an effective mod. Anything said mod could do or say would only anger the masses. Mallorea needs to resign because, in the eyes of the players, he is not trusted, lacks integrity, and has failed to follow the rules he is appointed to enforce.

[The Dark Star Republic]

It was basically lying to their face, presumably to avoid the sort of rage that's happening now from happening then.

Almost exactly--the difference being that we thought it was a sufficient opt-out. Then the Law of Unintended Consequences walked up, looked us over, grinned, and planted a boot in our collective dick.

Y'know, as usual.

Except it was pointed out before Liberations were even introduced that this would happen, and the whole thing went ahead anyway. It's not like some totally unseen accident that sadly came to pass only after it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.

[Scolopendra]

Almost exactly--the difference being that we thought it was a sufficient opt-out. Then the Law of Unintended Consequences walked up, looked us over, grinned, and planted a boot in our collective dick.

Y'know, as usual.

Except it was pointed out before Liberations were even introduced that this would happen, and the whole thing went ahead anyway. It's not like some totally unseen accident that sadly came to pass only after it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.

Yes, but good intentions have a blinding effect--and it's not how Liberations were sold.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Yes, but good intentions have a blinding effect--and it's not how Liberations were sold.

Right, but that was a function of how Liberations came about. [violet] listened only to R/D players, with no thought for other groups (who had no interest in posting in the Gameplay topic where the discussion took place). It had a huge impact on the WA community, but no WA players really had any say because it wouldn't have even occurred to them that the discussion was taking place. If this whole thing leads to any sort of change - and I absolutely think that it will not - then I hope that at the very least opinions from a broader cross-section of the game, not just RPers and not just R/D players - will be solicited. Otherwise the same "good intentions" will amount to the same amount of nothing.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Except it was pointed out before Liberations were even introduced that this would happen, and the whole thing went ahead anyway. It's not like some totally unseen accident that sadly came to pass only after it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.

Yes, but good intentions have a blinding effect--and it's not how Liberations were sold.

The sad thing about it is that, no matter what people do or how complex the system gets they will be always forced to try and defend their regions against exploits.

It's like one of my trainers at one of my prior works said: "the more complex the system the more loopholes and glitches it has". Increasing the complexity of the game will only create more glitches that can be abused by enterprising individuals, in my opinion, unless there is some amicable solution between raiders and other non-gameplayers to respect one another.