[Discussion] "Contentious" Flag

[Torisakia]

Egh, I don't see it.


I've always wondered, what is your flag?

But I want to bring my past question back up in case it was missed: Is the 'must be flag-like' rule enforced? I'd imagine not since there are a lot of people here (myself included) who don't have "flag-like" flags, and always saw the rule but never saw it enforced. But I just want to have some clarification on it.

A-Y. Plan Z. Evil Plan Z. David Hasslehoff.

Fuck.

If it's from something that isn't related to anime, I probably won't know it.

And so, rather obviously, is Mall's proposal to remove the password from Haven so that he & his allies can try to wreck the place...

I fear that was the inadvertent effect of the proposal. He might have had better intentions, but the resulting maelstrom has destabilized the forums. But that would probably be a discussion for the Security Council forum.

To be honest, I think people are taking this whole proposal thing by Mall to be a lot worse than it looks.

[Dragoria]

A-Y. Plan Z. Evil Plan Z. David Hasslehoff.

Fuck.

If it's from something that isn't related to anime, I probably won't know it.

I fear that was the inadvertent effect of the proposal. He might have had better intentions, but the resulting maelstrom has destabilized the forums. But that would probably be a discussion for the Security Council forum.

To be honest, I think people are taking this whole proposal thing by Mall to be a lot worse than it looks.

The way it's been handled, and the way the reaction to it/the way it's been handled has been handled, are my primary source of irritation.

[Scolopendra]

It... wouldn't.

That's one of the class of flags we had to stomp on, and yes, there was quite a lot of complaint from both the people we stomped and the General forum in... general. The guys who got slapped, well, their complaint was obvious ("censorship" etc). NSG was wondering why we didn't act sooner.

People are allowed to argue that homosexuality is a sin in NSG (though that reminds me of Rex Kramer from Kentucky Fried Movie for those of you plugged into that reference) but in a flag? No, that's like insta-rage and even if it can be addressed via telegram it almost never ends well.


I should've gone to bed six hours ago. (SIX WHAT THE HELL.) But I clean up my messes.

And what if someone crafted a flag that stated "OBAMACARE WILL RUIN OUR ECONOMY"?

Same thing. That was one of the flags sweeping the conservative US accounts of NSG (yes, they do exist) that was part of why we had to crack down on the thing in the first place due to all the... drama. It was called "contentious political issues" at the time--hence the language I used--but it really does come down to flamebaiting and a bit of how the rest of the Internet defines trolling.

If it's from something that isn't related to anime, I probably won't know it.


To be honest, I think people are taking this whole proposal thing by Mall to be a lot worse than it looks.

The way it's been handled, and the way the reaction to it/the way it's been handled has been handled, are my primary source of irritation.

And that's fair. The... particular differences in trolling definitions between Gameplay, the rest of NS, and the Internet at large almost guarantees friction when GP bumps up against RP. That much is actually out of our hands since if what Mall did was trolling, then Gameplay itself is trolling and must be destroyed. I know quite a few of you wouldn't mind seeing that (neither would I, I'm the Gameplay delenda est mod), but neither you nor I get a say in the matter, sadly, because we've all been outranked. So it goes.

The flag debacle was partially being exposed to a rule previously only an issue for NSG (due to the occasional spates of THIS GOOD THAT BAD TAKE THAT INFIDELS flags we've had to smack down) and those rules being applied both correctly and incorrectly by yours truly (again, mea culpa). Fury's clarified the delineation, however, and I've fixed what I've done wrong, and hopefully we can all move on towards finding solutions to all this.

[Dragoria]

The way it's been handled, and the way the reaction to it/the way it's been handled has been handled, are my primary source of irritation.

And that's fair. The... particular differences in trolling definitions between Gameplay, the rest of NS, and the Internet at large almost guarantees friction when GP bumps up against RP. That much is actually out of our hands since if what Mall did was trolling, then Gameplay itself is trolling and must be destroyed. I know quite a few of you wouldn't mind seeing that (neither would I, I'm the Gameplay delenda est mod), but neither you nor I get a say in the matter, sadly, because we've all been outranked. So it goes.

The flag debacle was partially being exposed to a rule previously only an issue for NSG (due to the occasional spates of THIS GOOD THAT BAD TAKE THAT INFIDELS flags we've had to smack down) and those rules being applied both correctly and incorrectly by yours truly (again, mea culpa). Fury's clarified the delineation, however, and I've fixed what I've done wrong, and hopefully we can all move on towards finding solutions to all this.

Now I want a flag that says "THIS GOOD THAT BAD TAKE THAT INFIDELS", but I don't think all that text'd fit with my character on it...

It does bug me (and, apparently, a good number of other people) that every aspect of the site is "there if you want it, fine if you don't", except apparently the one.
Don't want to roleplay? That's fine, don't have to roleplay.
Don't want to debate? That's fine, don't have to debate.
Don't want to post in chat threads? That's fine, don't have to post in chat threads.
Don't want to participate in WA? That's fine, don't have to participate in WA.
But don't want to have a region you worked hard on, a community that you've put a lot of time into building a history with, trashed "for the luls"? Too bad, it's "an essential part of the site", and not forcing you to participate ruins other's fun.
If my idea of having fun is to punch people, especially people who don't want to be punched, should the people who don't want to be punched by me be forced to tolerate being punched for my amusement?
So that's the uproar there. And then that A MOD OHNOES seems to be the one that led the "yes, punches for everyone" charge, even if only "as a player", that's just bound to charge an already charged situation even more.

Then the back-and-forth reactions between two sides escalating, then one bad call has it changed to those two sides vs. mod(s), and it's just a big stinkin' mess and that bugs me more than anything.

Fourth o' July Fireworks, alright...

[Dragoria]

I made it fit.

Allowed?

I hate the way PS snaps things to the edge of the image. If I want it three pixels away from the edge, I should be able to do that. ~shakes fist~

[Scolopendra]

It does bug me (and, apparently, a good number of other people) that every aspect of the site is "there if you want it, fine if you don't", except apparently the one.
Don't want to roleplay? That's fine, don't have to roleplay.
Don't want to debate? That's fine, don't have to debate.
Don't want to post in chat threads? That's fine, don't have to post in chat threads.
Don't want to participate in WA? That's fine, don't have to participate in WA.
But don't want to have a region you worked hard on, a community that you've put a lot of time into building a history with, trashed "for the luls"? Too bad, it's "an essential part of the site", and not forcing you to participate ruins other's fun.
If my idea of having fun is to punch people, especially people who don't want to be punched, should the people who don't want to be punched by me be forced to tolerate being punched for my amusement?

Oh, I fully understand. I'll actually break the OMG SOLID MOD WALL to admit that I've been making that exact same argument for a decade now.

The current status quo should show just how successful I've been in that regard.

The counterargument is that apparently regional gameplay simulates defense: since there's no real risk to nations and whatnot as far as invasions are concerned via issues, there should be a risk at least to regions. Thus regions have to be concerned about their own defense and raise armies of a sort and those that don't protect themselves pay their money and take their chances, so to speak.

I don't buy that argument, but that's the one in power and given that it gets impossible to tell regional invasions from native coups and to truly fulfill Gameplay delenda est would require eliminating most of the WA mechanics as well... lots of collateral damage associated with it. So we try to bandaid things up and have our cake and eat it too but of course we can't and here we are now.

So that's the uproar there. And then that A MOD OHNOES seems to be the one that led the "yes, punches for everyone" charge, even if only "as a player", that's just bound to charge an already charged situation even more.

Depends on what you mean by 'led the charge.' If you mean Mall in this moment, well, that's a given. If you mean the continued existence, more than implicit encouragement, and implicit preference for gameplay? That's all from above mod level. Some mods love it, others hate it, (no names other than mine shall be mentioned) we all have to enforce it.

Then the back-and-forth reactions between two sides escalating, then one bad call has it changed to those two sides vs. mod(s), and it's just a big stinkin' mess and that bugs me more than anything.

Any human system's going to suffer from down states under downing conditions every once in a while. The 'grr argh mods' viewpoint existed well before I flubbed the scope of the flag thing; that just exacerbated it. I'm hoping that my public chastisement will get things back on course while still pointing out that, thanks to still other parts of the forum, certain things should not be done.

I made it fit.

(Image)

Allowed?

I hate the way PS snaps things to the edge of the image. If I want it three pixels away from the edge, I should be able to do that. ~shakes fist~

I love it. Carry on, and if you get any guff, send 'em to me. Outside of maybe Fris I'm pretty sure I'm the mod with actual time-in-service seniority.

[Dragoria]

Oh, I fully understand. I'll actually break the OMG SOLID MOD WALL to admit that I've been making that exact same argument for a decade now.

The current status quo should show just how successful I've been in that regard.

The counterargument is that apparently regional gameplay simulates defense: since there's no real risk to nations and whatnot as far as invasions are concerned via issues, there should be a risk at least to regions. Thus regions have to be concerned about their own defense and raise armies of a sort and those that don't protect themselves pay their money and take their chances, so to speak.

I don't buy that argument, but that's the one in power and given that it gets impossible to tell regional invasions from native coups and to truly fulfill Gameplay delenda est would require eliminating most of the WA mechanics as well... lots of collateral damage associated with it. So we try to bandaid things up and have our cake and eat it too but of course we can't and here we are now.

Myself, I wouldn't even be in a region except that it's required for you to park your nation somewhere and my current home seemed less noisy/more friendly than the starter regions, and chatting in the RMB is nice sometimes. I don't care about power, or politics, and our region doesn't have any sort of "complex story" like the RP regions do, but it's just nice to have a little corner to talk with friends. Why should people like me who just want a quiet place to sit while they play their spider solitaire and make bad puns have to put up with having their place wrecked up because someone else gets off on it? It just seems like one group is getting preferential treatment over all the others, not just one. And that ain' right.

Depends on what you mean by 'led the charge.' If you mean Mall in this moment, well, that's a given. If you mean the continued existence, more than implicit encouragement, and implicit preference for gameplay? That's all from above mod level. Some mods love it, others hate it, (no names other than mine shall be mentioned) we all have to enforce it.

I mean submitted the particular proposal that got everyone wound up this time 'round.
Has anyone tried communicating that a good chunk of the players are a bit less enthusiastic about R/D than the "Above Mod Level" seems to be, and made note of the particularly loud cry of "do not want" this go 'round? What sort of thing would be helpful in getting that message across? A petition, perhaps?
I don't have anything against people raiding and defending if that's what they want to do, but dragging people who have very clearly stated that it's not what they want to do into the mess is just...it's mean.

Any human system's going to suffer from down states under downing conditions every once in a while. The 'grr argh mods' viewpoint existed well before I flubbed the scope of the flag thing; that just exacerbated it. I'm hoping that my public chastisement will get things back on course while still pointing out that, thanks to still other parts of the forum, certain things should not be done.

It's been around as long as mods have been around, on this site or any other. Publicly admitting the mistake, apologizing, and correcting it is something I suspect a good number of people, myself included, did not ever expect to see. It might go a ways towards helping recover from some of the bad feels. Keep a link to at least one of those posts handy for the next time something blows up and the "mods never admit they're wrong" thing comes up. Because let's be honest, that's gonna' happen eventually.

I love it. Carry on, and if you get any guff, send 'em to me. Outside of maybe Fris I'm pretty sure I'm the mod with actual time-in-service seniority.

I think this is the most times I've ever changed my flag in one 24-hour period.

[Greater Beggnig]

And so, rather obviously, is Mall's proposal to remove the password from Haven so that he & his allies can try to wreck the place...

I fear that was the inadvertent effect of the proposal. He might have had better intentions, but the resulting maelstrom has destabilized the forums. But that would probably be a discussion for the Security Council forum.

Indeed, this place really has exploded hasn't it?

[Dragoria]

So we're clear, I'd be just as miffed if, say the Roleplaying or Debating or TET community was trying to drag everyone on the site into Roleplays/Debates/Whatever it is TET does against their will.
(I have had someone try to make me roleplay with them when I didn't want to in the past. Kid would not take no for an answer, and it didn't end well for 'im.)
Making people do something they just don't want to do is not how you make a strong, happy, united community.

[Esternial]

Seriously?

I mean, I can understand an annoyance towards those flags. I totally get that, but how could you NOT see this coming?

It's like you don't know us at all. This is starting feel like a bad relationship. Please tell me that you can change.

[Todd McCloud]

So if I understand this correctly:

In fact, we're much stricter on nation flags than we are on forum posts, because they're not open for challenge and debate. If you want to make a political point, don't use your flag -- use the forum, where other people have a right of reply.

This includes:

1. Anything deemed offensive / malicious to a particular culture, religion, nationality, etc
2. Anything political that people have strong emotional ties to (like abortion, obamacare)
3. Anything directed at an in-game player; ie, saying "we're being oppressed" is fine but saying "Mall is oppressing us" is flamebaiting and bad.
4. Swastikas, obscene images, the likes
5. Anything illegal
6. Anything threatening
7. Any spam flags (not the can but advertising a website or something).


Did I miss anything?

[Delmonte]

Seriously?

I mean, I can understand an annoyance towards those flags. I totally get that, but how could you NOT see this coming?

It's like you don't know us at all. This is starting feel like a bad relationship. Please tell me that you can change.

It's not us, it's them!

[Scolopendra]

It just seems like one group is getting preferential treatment over all the others, not just one. And that ain' right.

Going by how regional mechanics work and what that implies, you wouldn't be wrong--and I agree with your ethical assessment of the matter. That argument's not had traction for the decade I've been making it in, though, and when the rubber hits the road a lot about ethics and morality and ethics is relative and contextual. It's somewhat frustrating.

Has anyone tried communicating that a good chunk of the players are a bit less enthusiastic about R/D than the "Above Mod Level" seems to be, and made note of the particularly loud cry of "do not want" this go 'round?

Many, many times over the past ten years. Another chunk of players think it's the bee's knees, though.

What sort of thing would be helpful in getting that message across? A petition, perhaps?

I honestly have no idea. I wouldn't, can't, and won't stop you if you think that might work; all I can do is suggest is that it probably won't be successful based on my observations of the behind-the-scenes dynamics.

I don't have anything against people raiding and defending if that's what they want to do, but dragging people who have very clearly stated that it's not what they want to do into the mess is just...it's mean.

So's sneaking up behind someone and knifing them in the back in, say, Minecraft with a pickaxe. Where my analogy breaks down is that unlike that game our constructive mechanic can't have its destructive mechanic tuned down without directly changing its constructive ability. As far as a good chunk of TPTB are concerned, Founders are the solution and if they CTE, well, that's just another example of life not being fair.

So if I understand this correctly:

In fact, we're much stricter on nation flags than we are on forum posts, because they're not open for challenge and debate. If you want to make a political point, don't use your flag -- use the forum, where other people have a right of reply.

This includes:

1. Anything deemed offensive / malicious to a particular culture, religion, nationality, etc
2. Anything political that people have strong emotional ties to (like abortion, obamacare)
3. Anything directed at an in-game player; ie, saying "we're being oppressed" is fine but saying "Mall is oppressing us" is flamebaiting and bad.
4. Swastikas, obscene images, the likes
5. Anything illegal
6. Anything threatening
7. Any spam flags (not the can but advertising a website or something).


Did I miss anything?

To emphasize the 'political point' angle I struck out the ones covered by the usual obscene/illegal/threatening/spam rules (though, yes, they're still actionable), and I'd not be telling the whole truth if I didn't point out that exactly when something becomes flamebaity is going to be based on context and the individual mod judgment call. The stuff you mentioned is for most parts definite, but there are grey edges beyond that. For example, a "Mall is best Mod" flag, put up in the middle of this kerfluffle, has a very high likelihood of cheesing off those who do not agree with that assessment at a moment when quite a few people have very strong feelings about it. However, four days ago or a year from now, that'd be quite different, no?

[Constaniana]

And so, rather obviously, is Mall's proposal to remove the password from Haven so that he & his allies can try to wreck the place...

I fear that was the inadvertent effect of the proposal. He might have had better intentions, but the resulting maelstrom has destabilized the forums. But that would probably be a discussion for the Security Council forum.

Mal's intentions were completely awful from the start. His sole reason for the "liberation" is so he has yet another group of people to legally piss off with the blessing of the mods.

[Todd McCloud]

To emphasize the 'political point' angle I struck out the ones covered by the usual obscene/illegal/threatening/spam rules (though, yes, they're still actionable), and I'd not be telling the whole truth if I didn't point out that exactly when something becomes flamebaity is going to be based on context and the individual mod judgment call. The stuff you mentioned is for most parts definite, but there are grey edges beyond that. For example, a "Mall is best Mod" flag, put up in the middle of this kerfluffle, has a very high likelihood of cheesing off those who do not agree with that assessment at a moment when quite a few people have very strong feelings about it. However, four days ago or a year from now, that'd be quite different, no?

I suppose that depends on how big of frenzy this becomes, lol. But I see the point. I realize there's probably a lot of gray area in this, but I was just trying to get better sense of it.

[Todd McCloud]

I fear that was the inadvertent effect of the proposal. He might have had better intentions, but the resulting maelstrom has destabilized the forums. But that would probably be a discussion for the Security Council forum.

Mal's intentions were completely awful from the start. His sole reason for the "liberation" is so he has yet another group of people to legally piss off with the blessing of the mods.

Eh, I don't think he's using his modly powers to rain down upon RPers. This isn't very much different than the Liberate Hell proposal that was recently defeated.

[Hurdegaryp]

Mal's intentions were completely awful from the start. His sole reason for the "liberation" is so he has yet another group of people to legally piss off with the blessing of the mods.

Eh, I don't think he's using his modly powers to rain down upon RPers. This isn't very much different than the Liberate Hell proposal that was recently defeated.

Well, it does look like Mal has deliberately stirred up one hell of a shitstorm, which is apparently one of the things that are now expected from moderators.

[Constaniana]

Mal's intentions were completely awful from the start. His sole reason for the "liberation" is so he has yet another group of people to legally piss off with the blessing of the mods.

Eh, I don't think he's using his modly powers to rain down upon RPers. This isn't very much different than the Liberate Hell proposal that was recently defeated.

I was referring to the fact that the mods place more importance on R/D than RP, because raiding is emergent or some snazzy word, and abusing the system is what this game is all about.

[Scolopendra]

Eh, I don't think he's using his modly powers to rain down upon RPers. This isn't very much different than the Liberate Hell proposal that was recently defeated.

I was referring to the fact that the mods place more importance on R/D than RP, because raiding is emergent or some snazzy word, and abusing the system is what this game is all about.

I'm going to again point out that mods have no control over game mechanics. The hierarchy of the firmament is The Boss -> [violet] -> admin -> mods -> mentors (kinda sorta).

In short, I get your rage (I feel it too), but don't look at me, mac. I've been making your argument since nine years before your current account was made. 'S even more important that I point this out given the out-of-context quote in your sig.

[Hurdegaryp]

Eh, I don't think he's using his modly powers to rain down upon RPers. This isn't very much different than the Liberate Hell proposal that was recently defeated.

I was referring to the fact that the mods place more importance on R/D than RP, because raiding is emergent or some snazzy word, and abusing the system is what this game is all about.

That's like redesigning a first person shooter in order to make teabagging the game's defining characteristic.

[Scolopendra]

I was referring to the fact that the mods place more importance on R/D than RP, because raiding is emergent or some snazzy word, and abusing the system is what this game is all about.

That's like redesigning a first person shooter in order to make teabagging the game's defining characteristic.

I usually use spawncamping as a metaphor, since it uses all the mechanics people like (guns) to do things that people hate (kill them before they can do anything).

[Delmonte]

That's like redesigning a first person shooter in order to make teabagging the game's defining characteristic.

I usually use spawncamping as a metaphor, since it uses all the mechanics people like (guns) to do things that people hate (kill them before they can do anything).

They are both apropos.

[Scolopendra]

Again, no argument. I use spawncamping because the guns in an FPS are more vital to the gameplay than crouching. For GP and R/D delenda est to be achieved, it'd require wiping out the entire WA mechanic, as well as probably the region mechanic: before delegates had regional controls, 'region camping' was the big thing in the early 2003 period--so any mechanic, any one at all, can be abused. As for having moderators clean that up, the pre-Influence period was an absolutely horrible time where no one ever went home happy because there was no way to determine who was a native and who wasn't or if it was a local coup or a foreign invasion, and on and on and on. It was a series of increasingly arbitrary judgment calls and it wasn't any good for anyone.

All this being said, yes, opt-out ideas are being kicked around in the halls of power. They have their supporters (usually along the lines of "raiding is bullying" which I personally hold with) and detractors ("they already got their Founders; this creeping banning is bad for Gameplay") and given how long it's taken to [not] get Regional Officers, I'm honestly none too hopeful that any sort of opt-out strengthening is going to happen. I don't like blowing smoke.

[Delmonte]

Again, no argument. I use spawncamping because the guns in an FPS are more vital to the gameplay than crouching. For GP and R/D delenda est to be achieved, it'd require wiping out the entire WA mechanic, as well as probably the region mechanic: before delegates had regional controls, 'region camping' was the big thing in the early 2003 period--so any mechanic, any one at all, can be abused. As for having moderators clean that up, the pre-Influence period was an absolutely horrible time where no one ever went home happy because there was no way to determine who was a native and who wasn't or if it was a local coup or a foreign invasion, and on and on and on. It was a series of increasingly arbitrary judgment calls and it wasn't any good for anyone.

All this being said, yes, opt-out ideas are being kicked around in the halls of power. They have their supporters (usually along the lines of "raiding is bullying" which I personally hold with) and detractors ("they already got their Founders; this creeping banning is bad for Gameplay") and given how long it's taken to [not] get Regional Officers, I'm honestly none too hopeful that any sort of opt-out strengthening is going to happen. I don't like blowing smoke.

Nobody wants you to lie to us. This kind of openness about what's going on has a purgative effect. Thank you for that. And your sympathy is also of great comfort to us, I'm sure. But we're still very upset. And obviously you know that and I know you aren't de-legitimizing that.

We were essentially told that passwords WERE our opt-out and then, in the form of a pseudo-trolling by a Mod no less, we were told "Fuck you, they're not." We're being told that in order to not play the game we have to play the game. See what I mean?

[Constaniana]

I was referring to the fact that the mods place more importance on R/D than RP, because raiding is emergent or some snazzy word, and abusing the system is what this game is all about.

I'm going to again point out that mods have no control over game mechanics. The hierarchy of the firmament is The Boss -> [violet] -> admin -> mods -> mentors (kinda sorta).

In short, I get your rage (I feel it too), but don't look at me, mac. I've been making your argument since nine years before your current account was made. 'S even more important that I point this out given the out-of-context quote in your sig.

Nothing personal. I'd be quoting the same thing if it was Nerv or Farn who said it.