Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'll go ahead and answer all questions as to why raider and lots of the defender regions use the "founder opt-out". Because it makes sense and is the ultimate line of defense from an attack by outside forces. We aren't going to purposefully leave ourselves open to attack when we KNOW there are people out there who would love nothing more than to raid us right back.

And in turn things like these happen in which the efforts of peaceful communities that have nothing to do with you actually seem thwarted and they become nothing more than formalities to be smashed.

[Vaculatestar4]

So, are you suggesting that we purposefully allow ourselves to be raided by not keeping our founders alive and doing everything in our power to keep ourselves safe? What makes you think that you shouldn't have to do this? Believe it or not R/D based regions are just as much a community as any RP region. Sure it may not always show it on the RMB but take a look at our offsite forums. Many of our offsite forums are wonderful centers of culture with great people, many of which aren't actually in that regions military. We talk just the same, debate how we rule ourselves, play our spam games, discuss real life issues in America, Europe, and other places, and we *le gasp* Roleplay just the same. And if you have ever read a post by Onder and that Rejected Times that Unibot puts out (keep it coming, always good for a laugh and I'm not always aware of what's going on in the defender regions ), then you can realize that many of us are perfectly capable writers, who can indeed, write ourselves out of a paper bag and then some.

[Nierr]

Eh, I'd imagine there's a certain stronk-ness to a raider region based out of a founderless region, which is why my favourite raiders were Grand Central back when it did things.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

So, are you suggesting that we purposefully allow ourselves to be raided by not keeping our founders alive and doing everything in our power to keep ourselves safe? What makes you think that you shouldn't have to do this? Believe it or not R/D based regions are just as much a community as any RP region. Sure it may not always show it on the RMB but take a look at our offsite forums.

This is a problematic issue, given that offsite forums are arguably even a part of NS.
Namely, the fact that you're using them kinda takes ad revenue away from NS - as opposed to RPers, who stay on-site.

Many of our offsite forums are wonderful centers of culture with great people, many of which aren't actually in that regions military. We talk just the same, debate how we rule ourselves, play our spam games, discuss real life issues in America, Europe, and other places, and we *le gasp* Roleplay just the same.

Then maybe you should be doing more of that here and less of that behind passworded off-site locations, if you want to not appear to the rest of us like a bunch of griefing barbarians, which is the public image a lot of us get when you people trash our regions and then use the SC to try and get at even more.
Take yourself, for instance. Wow. Nine whole posts on here.
That's not really a whole lot of PR work.

And if you have ever read a post by Onder and that Rejected Times that Unibot puts out (keep it coming, always good for a laugh and I'm not always aware of what's going on in the defender regions ), then you can realize that many of us are perfectly capable writers, who can indeed, write ourselves out of a paper bag and then some.

You seem to be far better at trashing and flaming each other than doing much that's constructive, if I'm honest, no matter how verbose you may get.

[Eastfield Lodge]

I'll admit, I have very little clue about the nitty gritty specifics of the original problem, but a question has come to mind. Do the nations (yes, the actual nation, not the user) that get given the moderation powers have to be in the WA as well? Probably a stupid question and all.

[The Blaatschapen]

I'll admit, I have very little clue about the nitty gritty specifics of the original problem, but a question has come to mind. Do the nations (yes, the actual nation, not the user) that get given the moderation powers have to be in the WA as well? Probably a stupid question and all.

No.

I'm a mod and my WA is not on my mod nation.

[Vaculatestar4]

So, are you suggesting that we purposefully allow ourselves to be raided by not keeping our founders alive and doing everything in our power to keep ourselves safe? What makes you think that you shouldn't have to do this? Believe it or not R/D based regions are just as much a community as any RP region. Sure it may not always show it on the RMB but take a look at our offsite forums.

This is a problematic issue, given that offsite forums are arguably even a part of NS.
Namely, the fact that you're using them kinda takes ad revenue away from NS - as opposed to RPers, who stay on-site.

Many of our offsite forums are wonderful centers of culture with great people, many of which aren't actually in that regions military. We talk just the same, debate how we rule ourselves, play our spam games, discuss real life issues in America, Europe, and other places, and we *le gasp* Roleplay just the same.

Then maybe you should be doing more of that here and less of that behind passworded off-site locations, if you want to not appear to the rest of us like a bunch of griefing barbarians, which is the public image a lot of us get when you people trash our regions and then use the SC to try and get at even more.
Take yourself, for instance. Wow. Nine whole posts on here.
That's not really a whole lot of PR work.

And if you have ever read a post by Onder and that Rejected Times that Unibot puts out (keep it coming, always good for a laugh and I'm not always aware of what's going on in the defender regions ), then you can realize that many of us are perfectly capable writers, who can indeed, write ourselves out of a paper bag and then some.

You seem to be far better at trashing and flaming each other than doing much that's constructive, if I'm honest, no matter how verbose you may get.

Sir this is my current WA nation. This is my main nation: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=vaculatestar64 don't talk to me about supporting the site, I buy enough stamps and have bought the site supporter thing so yes, I support the site. Don't think yourself more important, or better than me in some way just because you spend more time on the offsite forums. You make sweeping judgements about us without taking the time to get to know a significant part of the community. And when have I flamed? And I have done plenty in even my relatively short time on NationStates to help further the regions that I take part in, that is constructive. I'm not even one of the more well known raiders, but within my communities, I contribute a lot in the way of cultural means, versus military ones.

[Mekhet]

But then you run into another problem.

What if an F7er region or NSGer region or non-NSforumusing region wants to opt out? Do we let them?

Seeing as neither want to play the raiding game, the answer is obviously yes.

And then all that was left were the raiders who want to play the raiding game. Leaving only raid able regions being the GCRs (Including Warzones), those few who purposely make a region invade possible, and those who didn't get the memo. Many defenders do enjoy defending, many more of them would rather see raiding killed off.

With the gains made from tag raiding, within a year all possible regions will have been raided and potentially refounded. There would not be enough of anything left nor any form of resistance to make the game fun for crashers and the defenders that want Military Gameplay. Maybe cliche to keep saying, but R/D killt.

At least with an opt-out of this magnitude specifically.

[New Mushroom Kingdom]

Seeing as neither want to play the raiding game, the answer is obviously yes.

And then all that was left were the raiders who want to play the raiding game. Leaving only raid able regions being the GCRs (Including Warzones), those few who purposely make a region invade possible, and those who didn't get the memo. Many defenders do enjoy defending, many more of them would rather see raiding killed off.

With the gains made from tag raiding, within a year all possible regions will have been raided and potentially refounded. There would not be enough of anything left nor any form of resistance to make the game fun for crashers and the defenders that want Military Gameplay. Maybe cliche to keep saying, but R/D killt.

At least with an opt-out of this magnitude specifically.

This argument boils down to 'You must play so we can play". Explain how that makes sense.

[Rephesus]

Seeing as neither want to play the raiding game, the answer is obviously yes.

And then all that was left were the raiders who want to play the raiding game. Leaving only raid able regions being the GCRs (Including Warzones), those few who purposely make a region invade possible, and those who didn't get the memo. Many defenders do enjoy defending, many more of them would rather see raiding killed off.

With the gains made from tag raiding, within a year all possible regions will have been raided and potentially refounded. There would not be enough of anything left nor any form of resistance to make the game fun for crashers and the defenders that want Military Gameplay. Maybe cliche to keep saying, but R/D killt.

At least with an opt-out of this magnitude specifically.

R/D was made by exploiting the mechanics of the game. A side-effect if you will.

Changing the Game side in order to benefit the community happens, hypothetically, and R/D dies out. Another Side effect, if you will.

I don't see how this is 'unfair'. I don't see how it's any more unfair than outlawing Privateering IRL, or destroying the economy of slave traders by abolishing slavery.

[Avenio]

Seeing as neither want to play the raiding game, the answer is obviously yes.

And then all that was left were the raiders who want to play the raiding game. Leaving only raid able regions being the GCRs (Including Warzones), those few who purposely make a region invade possible, and those who didn't get the memo. Many defenders do enjoy defending, many more of them would rather see raiding killed off.

With the gains made from tag raiding, within a year all possible regions will have been raided and potentially refounded. There would not be enough of anything left nor any form of resistance to make the game fun for crashers and the defenders that want Military Gameplay. Maybe cliche to keep saying, but R/D killt.

At least with an opt-out of this magnitude specifically.

Well, that's sort of the thing, though, isn't it? If only the raiders and a few defenders actually want to take part in military gameplay, then that's a structural problem inherent to the game itself. It's not 'fun' for anyone except the region-crashers/raiders/whathaveyou. Kicking over sandcastles isn't really a sustainable activity when having your sandcastles kicked down burns out your interest in building any more and the only way of ensuring that you have castles to kick down in the future is to mandate that everyone who wants to use the beach has to build them.

Fixing that should arguably be Priority One for the gameplay community and the mods, not figuring out new and innovative ways to extract fun out of a captive audience.

[Controlitia WA]

As a defender who enjoys military gameplay, I think opting out is necessary and right. In my mind, that would make the R/D game more fun by essentially eliminating natives, and leaving only raiders and counter-raiders. That'd prevent the boring tag raiding that currently plagues R/D, because every region involved would have some form of defense. Raids would actually be contests (although many would be one-sided) and then the skill comes back into it. Tag-raiding's degenerated into TBR hitting 40-50 1 nation regions every update, which is hardly fun for anyone.

[The Serbian Empire]

As a defender who enjoys military gameplay, I think opting out is necessary and right. In my mind, that would make the R/D game more fun by essentially eliminating natives, and leaving only raiders and counter-raiders. That'd prevent the boring tag raiding that currently plagues R/D, because every region involved would have some form of defense. Raids would actually be contests (although many would be one-sided) and then the skill comes back into it. Tag-raiding's degenerated into TBR hitting 40-50 1 nation regions every update, which is hardly fun for anyone.

The fun for them is to produce large volumes of attacks.

[Vaculatestar4]

It is entertaining to watch RPers make broad assumptions about people in R/D and are trying to judge us without even knowing us or even trying to visit one of our communities. Makes you look like a bunch of arrogant and ignorant people.

[the Imperial Crown]

Unfortunately, R/D is very much part of the game, whether we like it or not. I have no time to play that game and I cannot see the point in it other than it promoting activity in regions.

The RP'ers are not the only people who play NS and have their own communities - the NS forum provides admirably for their various RP needs but for those who desire a regional political experience, there are no facilities for us on this forum. We have Gameplay which is a vipers nest, the WASC which is pretty much the same and that's about it. Off-site forums and communities provides us with the appropriate medium to nurture what keeps us in the game.

When it comes to "opting" out of the R/D Game, all I can recommend is ensuring the region is secured with an active founder, non-exec WAD and password - something that should be standard for all regions tbh.

Elitism, on either side will get you nowhere.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It is entertaining to watch RPers make broad assumptions about people make R/D and are trying to judge us without even knowing us or even trying to visit one of our communities. Makes you look like a bunch of arrogant and ignorant people.

Just one thing: I am a Generalite, not an RPer.

Nobody has ever said you guys are evil (well, at least not from my end) what we have specifically said is that we don't want to take part of your R/D game, please do not force us into it; that's it. If we say we don't want to play respect our opinions and let us be, don't go around going "oh well, you are in NS, you must play it by my rules" like some of you have said in this thread because we don't have to.

[Unibot III]

To defenders posting here : Please do not use this thread in order to recruit others to your gameplay arena. Enough said.

Excuse me, Wordy, but if someone reads this thread and says "hey, maybe I should become a defender" -- that is a good thing. For too long, members of this site have been conflating "defenders" and "invaders" as one in the same with the same motivations -- hence the terrible "R/D" phrase. Part of the issue is many roleplayers here believe that gameplay has one unified opinion on invading -- when in fact a good chunk of us have dedicated our time to try to stop invasions because we think they are wrong.

I don't see your idea being implemented and I don't see many of the ideas here in this thread being implemented, so I think it's important that players here aren't mislead into believing there is nothing else they can do to help prevent invasions and free occupied regions.

"Enough said".

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Sir this is my current WA nation. This is my main nation: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=vaculatestar64 don't talk to me about supporting the site, I buy enough stamps and have bought the site supporter thing so yes, I support the site.

I had literally no way to reasonably know that.

Don't think yourself more important, or better than me in some way

Oh, quit projecting. Nobody said that.
Grow a thicker skin.

just because you spend more time on the offsite forums.

I don't spend more time on the offsite forums.
Did you read what I wrote?

You make sweeping judgements about us without taking the time to get to know a significant part of the community.

Oh, I've gotten to know you guys.
My region got raided, once, and a lot of good RPing data was lost.

And when have I flamed?

I was speaking more in terms of the R/D community in general, there.

And I have done plenty in even my relatively short time on NationStates to help further the regions that I take part in, that is constructive.

Specifics...?

I'm not even one of the more well known raiders, but within my communities, I contribute a lot in the way of cultural means, versus military ones.

Okay.

It is entertaining to watch RPers make broad assumptions about people make R/D and are trying to judge us without even knowing us or even trying to visit one of our communities.

We can see GP, you know. And we've been raided before.
A lot of us know you about as well as we care to.

Makes you look like a bunch of arrogant and ignorant people.

Think about this for a second, and you'll realize why it makes me laugh.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

To defenders posting here : Please do not use this thread in order to recruit others to your gameplay arena. Enough said.

Excuse me, Wordy, but if someone reads this thread and says "hey, maybe I should become a defender" -- that is a good thing. For too long, members of this site have been conflating "defenders" and "invaders" as one in the same with the same motivations -- hence the terrible "R/D" phrase. Part of the issue is many roleplayers here believe that gameplay has one unified opinion on invading -- when in fact a good chunk of us have dedicated our time to try to stop invasions because we think they are wrong.

I don't see your idea being implemented and I don't see many of the ideas here in this thread being implemented, so I think it's important that players here aren't mislead into believing there is nothing else they can do to help prevent invasions and free occupied regions.

"Enough said".

I know you and other defenders do a good job at actually defending our regions, so the blame is not shifted towards you Unibot, but the game style itself is what worries some of us, that we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

[Vaculatestar4]

We can see GP, you know. And we've been raided before.
A lot of us know you about as well as we care to.

Like The Imperial Crown Said, elitism won't get you anywhere.

If you want specifics on how I have contributed to the regions I am in outside of military practices I hope you have a long while to sit and read.

And on the offsite forums comment, I think I actually edited it to fix it but if I didn't I meant to say "site forums".

[The Serbian Empire]

It is entertaining to watch RPers make broad assumptions about people in R/D and are trying to judge us without even knowing us or even trying to visit one of our communities. Makes you look like a bunch of arrogant and ignorant people.

I am not an RPer at least any more. Still doesn't change the fact that half of raiding activities occur on off-site forums as to prevent defenders from being able to defend and secondly allows for rampant vandalism of dozens of regions every day. There's a good majority who wants no part in the vandalism activity.

[Virana]

Let's face it, an opt-out feature would ruin trolling and vandalizing other regions for fun raiding. And that would also ruin counter-trolling defending.

[Unibot III]

we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

That's what defenders have been saying for years, though. That's why a lot of us (including me) defend. What I'm trying to get across in this thread is that the cause badly needs help and it's the easiest way for players here to have a real impact against invaders, in the event that the changes we all are seeking aren't implemented.

A lot of roleplayers are dismissive of defenders as just the "other side of the coin", when in fact, many of us share your opinion on invasions and are just doing our part to provide relief to invaded regions. Ultimately, if the game admins aren't willing to change the code, someone has to stand up and help these communities and if you feel like you've got some spare time, I can tell you right now that your help would be appreciated and invaluable.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

We can see GP, you know. And we've been raided before.
A lot of us know you about as well as we care to.

Like The Imperial Crown Said, elitism won't get you anywhere.

It's elitism to not want to get our stuff destroyed? it's elitism to not have an unabashedly positive opinion of you after our stuff gets destroyed? It's elitism to not want to go sit around a group of people who like their public image to be that of a bunch of griefing, trolling, flaming jerks?
Because I've been raided before. That's how you people act. I'm not projecting anything at all - that is literally what happened. Raiders came in, wrecked all of our shit, spammed our RMB, spammed our TG boxes, kicked people out, treated everyone like shit, and did a ton of damage for no reason than their own gratification, and they made that very clear. And that's elitism to not fall all over ourselves giving you people another chance? Why the hell should we?
Right. I'm not sure you know what elitism means.

If you want specifics on how I have contributed to the regions I am in outside of military practices I hope you have a long while to sit and read.

Wow, you sure talk about it a lot and provide no details, so I'm really convinced.
Frankly, I don't really care that much anyways. All that matters is the griefing (IE the "military") end of what you do.

And on the offsite forums comment, I think I actually edited it to fix it but if I didn't I meant to say "site forums".

Right.

Let's face it, an opt-out feature would ruin trolling and vandalizing other regions for fun raiding. And that would also ruin counter-trolling defending.

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

[Wisconsin9]

we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

That's what defenders have been saying for years, though. That's why a lot of us (including me) defend. What I'm trying to get across in this thread is that the cause badly needs help and it's the easiest way for players here to have a real impact against invaders, in the event that the changes we all are seeking aren't implemented.

A lot of roleplayers are dismissive of defenders as just the "other side of the coin", when in fact, many of us share your opinion on invasions and are just doing our part to provide relief to invaded regions. Ultimately, if the game admins aren't willing to change the code, someone has to stand up and help these communities and if you feel like you've got some spare time, I can tell you right now that your help would be appreciated and helpful.

I think it just generally doesn't interest a lot of people.