Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Pollona]

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

If the proposal is not going to be passed, then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Honestly, the supporters need to make up their minds. If the proposal was unlikely to pass then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Either the proposal was put forth as a gag, in which case it has seriously offended a large portion of the RP community and warrants some form of apology.

Otherwise, the proposal was a serious intent to forcefully target a RP region and open it up to raiding, which raises a serious concern from the RP community: namely that passwords are an utterly worthless protection if this kind of precedent is set.

[Commerce Heights]

So called raiding is democratic method select new delegate. A Most endorsed WA-nation in a region will be elected to Delegacy. Then supporters and New Delegate decide what to do with new Delegate position and with powers that position gives over the region.

Opt out is of course possible. Non-Executive Delegate.

The Essense of Political simulation of NationStates.

It’s not democratic. One side, the raiders, get to move in to a region at just the right time to have their votes counted instantly. Others then have precious little opportunity to vote against them, because they’ll be kicked out of the region before their vote is counted. If everyone had the same opportunity, over a reasonable period of time, to support or oppose a new delegate, that would be democratic.

[Nierr]

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

But then it brings to question, knowing it would not pass, and knowing the shitstorm it would cause, why would anyone in their right, especially a mod, even try to bring this up again?

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.

I'm aware. You aren't understanding. He's trying to use it to strip away the immunity unwilling regions were granted to not participate in GP. That is NOT what the liberate resolution was for, and if you think so, then you need to a good look at some of the people who've quoted [violet] here. It was intended to be used by R/D, against R/D, not against RP regions who want nothing to do with any of it.

No I do understand. What I'm saying is that it's already been used in this way. Therefore, not a new precedent, not changing the way the game works.

[Wisconsin9]

But then it brings to question, knowing it would not pass, and knowing the shitstorm it would cause, why would anyone in their right, especially a mod, even try to bring this up again?

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.

Then that's trolling and he needs to be held accountable for it.

[Coraxion]

So called raiding is democratic method select new delegate. A Most endorsed WA-nation in a region will be elected to Delegacy. Then supporters and New Delegate decide what to do with new Delegate position and with powers that position gives over the region.

Opt out is of course possible. Non-Executive Delegate.

The Essense of Political simulation of NationStates.

When they don't have a founder, non-exec delegate is not an option.

Then you must refound for to have that lacking Founder and/or sharing password all around and get WAD endorsed so numerously that in practice any invasion would be hard to do.

GCRs are example of this situation during periods of Rulng Hegemonies, But Haven would not suffer influence decay like GCRs do.

[New Babylonia]

But then it brings to question, knowing it would not pass, and knowing the shitstorm it would cause, why would anyone in their right, especially a mod, even try to bring this up again?

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.

I'm aware. You aren't understanding. He's trying to use it to strip away the immunity unwilling regions were granted to not participate in GP. That is NOT what the liberate resolution was for, and if you think so, then you need to a good look at some of the people who've quoted [violet] here. It was intended to be used by R/D, against R/D, not against RP regions who want nothing to do with any of it.

No I do understand. What I'm saying is that it's already been used in this way. Therefore, not a new precedent, not changing the way the game works.

Well that's not much consolation to people whose work is being threatened with being wiped out in matter of minutes.

[Great Nepal]

You disgust me. You are literally comparing clicking buttons on a screen to being a soldier in war. Disgusting. Shame on you. You clearly do not understand what war is. Your little 'wars' are no more reality than our roleplays. Your 'wars' are a fiction you all made up, to create a game. Just like our Roleplay. Actions? By actions, you mean, click buttons? So heroic of you. Such bravery and glory earned.

Yes because that is how wars work in reality, countries pretend nations are soldiers and send them to another country

You both literally just described RP

1. Your fallacy is Cherry picking. Try to quote the entire post rater than just part of first sentence to avoid this in future.
2. I dont think any RP revolves around pretending nations to be soldiers who get sent to battlefeild. If you do cherry pick next time, try to do it right.
3. You still are avoiding the core issue, you dont like RP? Great feel free to ignore II and P2TM, no RPer will ever drag you into one of those forms and force you to post. Same thing can not be said about R/D and once this balance is fixed, everything is good.
People who like R/D but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like R/D but dislike General should be able to ignore General. People who like R/D but dislike F7 stuff should be able to ignore F7. People who like RP but dislike General should be able to ignore General. People who like RP but dislike F7 should be able to ignore F7. People who like General but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like General but dislike F7 should be able to ignore F7. People who like F7 but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like F7 but dislike General should be able to ignore General. This much is already present currently however what is not present and thus an issue is overbearing reach of R/D. Just like someone who likes R/D but dislikes other aspects can ignore RP or General or F7, someone who likes RP or General or F7 should be able to ignore R/D. Its not really rocket science.

[Nierr]

Already happened.

I don't think that resolution protects the founderless regions that are password protected. If it did, I doubt this proposal Mallorea made would've caused the reaction it has. It seems Mall's proposal would strip away the protection and leave these regions open to raiders. Regions that, since they're password protected, have opt out of the R/D dynamic.

No, but that resolution stripped away the protection of a region that had, because it was password protected, opted out of the R/D dynamic.

[Yasuragi]

But then it brings to question, knowing it would not pass, and knowing the shitstorm it would cause, why would anyone in their right, especially a mod, even try to bring this up again?

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.

So.... a moderator deliberately posted a SC proposal in order to get a reaction from a certain section of this website? Simply because he was bored?

Is that what you're saying?

[New Babylonia]

When they don't have a founder, non-exec delegate is not an option.

Then you must refound for to have that lacking Founder and/or sharing password all around and get WAD endorsed so numerously that in practice any invasion would be hard to do.

GCRs are example of this situation during periods of Rulng Hegemonies, But Haven would not suffer influence decay like GCRs do.

No, you missed the point, AGAIN. They shouldn't HAVE to. They should be allowed to exist independently of the R/D game as they wish, and they should not be forced to defend themselves or refound their region just because a few mouse clicking wannabe soldiers want more people to shove out of their homes.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't think that resolution protects the founderless regions that are password protected. If it did, I doubt this proposal Mallorea made would've caused the reaction it has. It seems Mall's proposal would strip away the protection and leave these regions open to raiders. Regions that, since they're password protected, have opt out of the R/D dynamic.

No, but that resolution stripped away the protection of a region that had, because it was password protected, opted out of the R/D dynamic.

Then that was wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

[Nierr]

If the proposal is not going to be passed, then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Honestly, the supporters need to make up their minds. If the proposal was unlikely to pass then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Either the proposal was put forth as a gag, in which case it has seriously offended a large portion of the RP community and warrants some form of apology.

Otherwise, the proposal was a serious intent to forcefully target a RP region and open it up to raiding, which raises a serious concern from the RP community: namely that passwords are an utterly worthless protection if this kind of precedent is set.

People need to stop acting like I support this proposal. I don't. I'm kindof the main reason it's not being campaigned for by Mall and I have led much of the response from leading RPers. :/

[Nierr]

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.

Then that's trolling and he needs to be held accountable for it.

Not by any definition of the rules for WA proposals.

[Nierr]

Because Mall was bored and knew the reactions it would get. I don't think he anticipated the level of reactions it has gotten, and I think that Mall regrets what's happened and that's why he isn't campaigning for it to get to vote.


No I do understand. What I'm saying is that it's already been used in this way. Therefore, not a new precedent, not changing the way the game works.

Well that's not much consolation to people whose work is being threatened with being wiped out in matter of minutes.

This is the internet, it is very very difficult to wipe out anything. WFEs, flags, embassies, dispatches can all be recovered.

[Nephmir]

You both literally just described RP

-snip-

Thanks for pointing out a fallacy- apparently I'm not allowed to cut out the irrelevant parts. Next time I'll just cut out the entire post.

Also, you're asking for R/D to die. Then you will be forcing us to RP, since there would be no other options.

You are all asking for the balance to shift in your favor, not to equalize it.

[Wisconsin9]

Then that's trolling and he needs to be held accountable for it.

Not by any definition of the rules for WA proposals.

No, of course not. Because creating a proposal designed to be inflammatory to a massive chunk of the community is so much better than telling one person to go fuck themselves.

[Keyboard Warriors]

Then that's trolling and he needs to be held accountable for it.

Not by any definition of the rules for WA proposals.

WA proposals aren't separate from forum rules.

From the OSRS: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people

[Pollona]

If the proposal is not going to be passed, then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Honestly, the supporters need to make up their minds. If the proposal was unlikely to pass then what was the point of proposing it in the first place?

Either the proposal was put forth as a gag, in which case it has seriously offended a large portion of the RP community and warrants some form of apology.

Otherwise, the proposal was a serious intent to forcefully target a RP region and open it up to raiding, which raises a serious concern from the RP community: namely that passwords are an utterly worthless protection if this kind of precedent is set.

People need to stop acting like I support this proposal. I don't. I'm kindof the main reason it's not being campaigned for by Mall and I have led much of the response from leading RPers. :/

I'd thank you for your honesty but you can imagine our frustration by looking at the conversation.

Regardless, it was a general statement that still needs to be answered by Mall and his crowd.

[Nierr]

No, but that resolution stripped away the protection of a region that had, because it was password protected, opted out of the R/D dynamic.

Then that was wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

Nah it should've. In that instance I mean. It was directed towards Nazi Europe a region full of, well, Nazis.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No, but that resolution stripped away the protection of a region that had, because it was password protected, opted out of the R/D dynamic.

Then that was wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

This ^

And to add, once it is understandable due to non-precedent and many people being opposed did not work (and, well, the fact they were Nazis)

Using history to not change history is ludicrous; history isn't supposed to be repeating itself when it is clearly wrong.

[Pollona]

Thanks for pointing out a fallacy- apparently I'm not allowed to cut out the irrelevant parts. Next time I'll just cut out the entire post.

Also, you're asking for R/D to die. Then you will be forcing us to RP, since there would be no other options.

You are all asking for the balance to shift in your favor, not to equalize it.

Again with the slippery slope. No one is asking for R/D to die off. We just want to be left alone, is that such a hard argument to understand?

The current balance of power is not equalized by any measure, if that were so then RPers could force anyone to post on the forums. As evidence by the present situation, we cannot. If you are admitting that R/D cannot survive without dragging in by standards you should just come out and say it.

[Esternial]

No, but that resolution stripped away the protection of a region that had, because it was password protected, opted out of the R/D dynamic.

Then that was wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

It's pretty unfortunate that it had to be a Mod's actions to raise the issue. It sets a bad example for the rest of the community, so it's essential that this is handled both quickly and carefully.

First order of business would be to lock the thread and for Mallorea to excuse himself for making a mistake.

Apologising is more important than you think. Every time a Mod fails to apologise for their mistakes they just raise more resentment. Making mistakes in human, and being in a role of authority also means you need to own up to them to maintain a degree of respect.

[Prekonate]

Again, the mods and admins admit that raiding couldn't survive with an opt out available. Aka, most people, I guess the vast majority, don't want to play their game. Instead of respecting players' choice not to do so, we instead see a concerted effort from the site to prop up an unpopular, coercive practice, basically because max barry thinks it's cool.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Then that was wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

Nah it should've. In that instance I mean. It was directed towards Nazi Europe a region full of, well, Nazis.

Regardless of whether that region was full of Nazis or not, where it concerns other regions that have opted out of the R/D dynamic (founderless or not), they should be allowed to retain their password protection.

[Keyboard Warriors]

1. Your fallacy is Cherry picking. Try to quote the entire post rater than just part of first sentence to avoid this in future.
2. I dont think any RP revolves around pretending nations to be soldiers who get sent to battlefeild. If you do cherry pick next time, try to do it right.
3. You still are avoiding the core issue, you dont like RP? Great feel free to ignore II and P2TM, no RPer will ever drag you into one of those forms and force you to post. Same thing can not be said about R/D and once this balance is fixed, everything is good.
People who like R/D but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like R/D but dislike General should be able to ignore General. People who like R/D but dislike F7 stuff should be able to ignore F7. People who like RP but dislike General should be able to ignore General. People who like RP but dislike F7 should be able to ignore F7. People who like General but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like General but dislike F7 should be able to ignore F7. People who like F7 but dislike RP should be able to ignore RP. People who like F7 but dislike General should be able to ignore General. This much is already present currently however what is not present and thus an issue is overbearing reach of R/D. Just like someone who likes R/D but dislikes other aspects can ignore RP or General or F7, someone who likes RP or General or F7 should be able to ignore R/D. Its not really rocket science.

Thanks for pointing out a fallacy- apparently I'm not allowed to cut out the irrelevant parts. Next time I'll just cut out the entire post.

Also, you're asking for R/D to die. Then you will be forcing us to RP, since there would be no other options.

You are all asking for the balance to shift in your favor, not to equalize it.

If you didn't want R/D to die, you could negotiate with the rest of the R/D regions to remove their founders and passwords and then proceed to raid and defend each other. You can say that there'd be raiders who'd then use the opt-out to prevent themselves from being raided and I'd believe you because it seems that you're also using the founder opt-out for your raiding region.

If R/D dies because you can no longer force people to play it, maybe it's a game not really worth keeping in the first place.