Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Coraxion]

New Bab. Suomi was just like Haven. I refounded it exactly because I wanted Founder there. What prevents Haven to be refounded?

10+ years of history? Nostalgia?

Apparently Mall (and few others) doesn't give much value to that 10+ years of History or nostalgia. Save that nostalgia and Back up WFE, regional happenings, make few screenshots or use external utilities made for these purposes...

If refounding won't be successful, atleast you have your photos and Diaries for saving that Nostalgia and fond Memories.

Why there should be islands of Never changing stability and invulnerability in the Multiverse?

[Edlichbury]

I just want there to be a good way to opt out of it. I don't see why that's such a controversial idea.

It's controversial because it's a significant change to the game mechanic, and threatens the entire R/D game. We can't provide an opt-out to a single community of players (role play) without also offering it to other communities. So the GA authors and Generalites opt out. Then the kids running regional messageboard mini-chatrooms for their buddies (and NEVER appear on the forums) opt out. Eventually you're going to have nothing but one-nation, passworded regions left (of which there are thousands, with no way in), and you've killed the R/D game.

It's NOT simple. You want privileges not offered to other players, and that's just as unfair as your complaint about them forcing YOU to play.

So you can opt-out of doing issues, right? You can opt out of the WA, right? You can opt out of regions and create your own little bubble with a password, right? You can opt-out of the forums, you can ignore the April Events, you can opt out of literally everything in this game if you are so inclined. Except for your sacred cow R/D.

Because that's apparently how you prevent offering privileges to a specific group without giving those privileges to anyone else: you make one part of the community, and only one, mandatory.

[Coraxion]

New Bab. Chill little bit. I thought we are talking about Opt out from GamePlay here. I've tried help as much I can here. Now I must be ready for next update for a case there are some activity around. Take care.

[Edlichbury]

10+ years of history? Nostalgia?

Apparently Mall (and few others) doesn't give much value to that 10+ years of History or nostalgia. Save that nostalgia and Back up WFE, regional happenings, make few screenshots or use external utilities made for these purposes...

If refounding won't be successful, atleast you have your photos and Diaries for saving that Nostalgia and fond Memories.

Why there should be islands of Never changing stability and invulnerability in the Multiverse?

Or people could not be a dick about internet sandcastles because they have to compensate somehow and hummers are just too expensive.

[Oaledonia]

I guess this proves that half assed proposals can be submitted on the grounds of: "hurr durr they aren't playing muh raiding game >:C"

[Registug]

Little hard to save the history and nostalgia for us in Sapphire when it consists of nearly 3000 pages worth of RMB posts

[The Grey Wolf]

I guess this proves that half assed proposals can be submitted on the grounds of: "hurr durr they aren't playing muh raiding game >:C"

Little more serious now, aren't we?

[Nephmir]

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

[New Babylonia]

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

Roleplaying is the development of the writing skill. Which will lead to far more than your wannabe soldiery on the internet. Your 'accomplishments' really are nothing. You and several others clicked a few buttons at a certain time. Congratulations, you know how to use a mouse. What an accomplishment. Meanwhile, the ability to use one's creativity and imagination t construct their own world and society, is actually a bit more difficult. Clicking a few buttons does not work. No, I haven't tried it, but I've studied it through GP threads enough to have a decent understanding. And, frankly, I see nothing interesting or beckoning me to join a group of people who feel like heroes or great conquerors because they can click a mouse. If you can't stand RP, you aren't a writer. Not everyone is. Not everyone can write. But anyone can click a mouse at a certain time when their captain or whoever says 'go'.

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

[Sedgistan]

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

*** Warned for flaming. *** If you can't stay calm, don't post.

[The Grey Wolf]

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

Roleplaying is the development of the writing skill. Which will lead to far more than your wannabe soldiery on the internet. Your 'accomplishments' really are nothing. You and several others clicked a few buttons at a certain time. Congratulations, you know how to use a mouse. What an accomplishment. Meanwhile, the ability to use one's creativity and imagination t construct their own world and society, is actually a bit more difficult. Clicking a few buttons does not work. No, I haven't tried it, but I've studied it through GP threads enough to have a decent understanding. And, frankly, I see nothing interesting or beckoning me to join a group of people who feel like heroes or great conquerors because they can click a mouse. If you can't stand RP, you aren't a writer. Not everyone is. Not everyone can write. But anyone can click a mouse at a certain time when their captain or whoever says 'go'.

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

There's not really anything more to say other than this.

[New Babylonia]

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

*** Warned for flaming. *** If you can't stay calm, don't post.

I'm sorry, Sedge, but there wouldn't be a need for anyone to lose their calm if people, especially those tasked with greater responsibilities, did not intentionally start massive wildfires.

[Cestyr]

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or

You do realize the issue at hand is an attempt to force roleplaying regions to play, right?

(2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

How about no? Founders may CTE at any time for any number of personal reasons and the rest of the region should not be forced to refound it as a result.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

*** Warned for flaming. *** If you can't stay calm, don't post.

I have a really hard time thinking people can say "stay calm" when your decisions on the matter is pushing even generalites down the bus, Sedge.

[Edlichbury]

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

Have you at any time had your region destroyed by roleplay? Have you at any time had countless years of work into a community vanish because of roleplay. They are not equivalent because roleplay doesn't upset anything, it doesn't destroy anything, it doesn't force those who don't want to participate to become participants. If you love your invasions so much, why not play a game actually built around them?

[Grand Russian Federation]

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

Roleplaying is the development of the writing skill. Which will lead to far more than your wannabe soldiery on the internet. Your 'accomplishments' really are nothing. You and several others clicked a few buttons at a certain time. Congratulations, you know how to use a mouse. What an accomplishment. Meanwhile, the ability to use one's creativity and imagination t construct their own world and society, is actually a bit more difficult. Clicking a few buttons does not work. No, I haven't tried it, but I've studied it through GP threads enough to have a decent understanding. And, frankly, I see nothing interesting or beckoning me to join a group of people who feel like heroes or great conquerors because they can click a mouse. If you can't stand RP, you aren't a writer. Not everyone is. Not everyone can write. But anyone can click a mouse at a certain time when their captain or whoever says 'go'.

And this is where you don't understand us. WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR FUCKING R/D GAME. We don't give a flying hippopotamus's shit about it. We want nothing to do with your chest-puffling 'conquests' over the internet. We our game, you play yours, leave us the fuck out. We don't force you to RP. Don't force us to GP. Fuck off, and stop trying to force shit down people's throats. If they aren't innocent, and don't mind the GP game, fine. But if they don't have founder, and are a region who SPECIFICALLY make sit know they are not part of GP, then just fuck off and find someone else to bother. Is it really that difficult? What part of your brain is not comprehending this? I see no way to make it any simpler for you. THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY R/D. So don't fucking force them too. What the fuck is so incredibly difficult about that?

This sums up this entire situation.

Oh, and Neph.. Do you understand there are things called, I dunno, WRITERS? They write stories, you know, and make money... What does raiding and defending do in your life that will help you?

[Aurora Confederacy]

With R/D and RP communities active here on Nationstates, i believe that there should be at least some degree of respect by both communities and a clear line drawn, and so if a region does NOT want to take part in the raiding game, then that region, once password protected should be respected and allowed to go on without fear of being "liberated" to enact a raid, irrespective of whether the founder is present and resident, present and non resident, or in a status of C.T.E.

However if a region still has a founder, it would be polite to leave the region alone whether or not WAD has contols granted.

In reference to HAVEN, that region is passworded because it WANTS TO BE LEFT ALONE, and so whether previous members have carried out problems that Mall has issues with, the current residents may not wish to be dragged through the mire, and therefore out of respect and politeness for both communities be left alone.

Not every nation wants to be part of the raiding game so please RESPECT that!

[Nephmir]

If you can't stand RP, you aren't a writer

As a published (short story) author, I take high offense to this.

Oh, and Neph.. Do you understand there are things called, I dunno, WRITERS? They write stories, you know, and make money... What does raiding and defending do in your life that will help you?

And this!

This just keeps getting better. Any more insults?

And to answer your question, it's not about the regions... you're missing the much bigger picture.

[New Babylonia]

If you can't stand RP, you aren't a writer

As a published (short story) author, I take high offense to this.

Oh, and Neph.. Do you understand there are things called, I dunno, WRITERS? They write stories, you know, and make money... What does raiding and defending do in your life that will help you?

And this!

This just keeps getting better. Any more insults?

And to answer your question, it's not about the regions... you're missing the much bigger picture.

You're talking about GP, R/D, bro. Not to mention THE ENTIRE SITUATION is about regions.

[Pollona]

Apparently Mall (and few others) doesn't give much value to that 10+ years of History or nostalgia. Save that nostalgia and Back up WFE, regional happenings, make few screenshots or use external utilities made for these purposes...

If refounding won't be successful, atleast you have your photos and Diaries for saving that Nostalgia and fond Memories.

Why there should be islands of Never changing stability and invulnerability in the Multiverse?

This just confirms the bias that already exists in the minds of RPers, that Raiders or R/D types could care less about anything we do. Then, when we complain we are just told to "just do this" and get over it.

Why are RPers the one's who have to come up with the excuses?

Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either (1) not entirely innocent or (2) try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. Just found another region, or ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

This is a strawman if I've ever seen one. Fun fact: most of us are simply justifying why we want to be left alone in our own corner of the game. What you see as RPers acting with 'superiority' is nothing more than a reaction to being told to 'suck it up.' Please, don't use a personal anecdote of "oh I didn't like RP, therefore it isn't as good" as justification of our alleged hypocrisy.

No one is forced to RP. Shocking right? Anyone can opt out of General, II, 7 or whatever other boards NS has to offer, we don't force anyone in that situation to get involved. That is perfectly fine, if you don't want to RP there is nothing any of us can do about it. If you don't like RP, there is nothing we can do about it. On the flipside, many of us don't like Raiding. Many of us have tried raiding, and immediately disliked it. Therefore, we simply want to shy away from R/D all together and focus on our RPs. We cannot destroy any of your work by our actions in II, in our wikis, or on our RMBs. Yet, in many instances we are dragged in anyway against our will into the R/D charade. Saying 'it's just the mechanics' does not prevent us from arguing for a change to the system.

We've argued multiple times before that current proposed 'fixes' offered by R/D types are often unavailable to RP regions in general. Refounding regions is hardly a solution any of us support, and for good measure. RP regions hold, typically, years of history and thousands of pages of supporting wiki, II, and RMB material. Passwords are usually our one and only safeguard. The most recent Liberation proposal demonstrates just how flimsy that protection can be.

I have been defending the whole of my NS game life. I have long advocated for Native rights. Invaders are disruptive as are defenders to communities so I understand the outrage of most of the posters here.
My unrealistic ideas to overcome the problem.
Rather than an opt out from R/D it would be more effective to make it an opt in. Those that want to take part in R/D gameplay should opt in.
Founder inheritance :
A founder can nominate a nation to be placed into founder position should they CTE and remain that way for a certain amount of time. During that founderless window the region is locked down. Nations cannot enter. No one knows the password.
Regions that choose to opt in to R/D lose the founder. They are open to invade and be invaded. Their regions become warzones.

Regions that currently have no founder can apply for founder status (that would have to be admin / mod / GHR and pass a standard set by those) within 6 months the chance to gain founder status is closed and the region becomes a warzone.

To defenders posting here : Please do not use this thread in order to recruit others to your gameplay arena. Enough said.

Support, either let everyone opt out or have everyone choose to opt in.

[The Republic of Lanos]

I'm finding it hard to believe reports that there'll be a compromise on the matter because:

The difficult thing, and I'll be frank, is that it is official Moderation policy that Gameplay is more important than Roleplay. I'm not being hyperbolic or trying to stir up something. This is actually an official Moderation policy enforced from the highest levels.

What is trolling anywhere else does not count as trolling within Gameplay due to this.

So I'll be honest that I am pessimistic about change, though we'll work for it.

However, you should all know that the official mod position--as set from on high by people like Max Berry himself--is that gameplay is to be considered higher than RP. Things which would be considered trolling or grieving by other players are alright when they're done by game players using the hard code of the game. Why? Because Max Barry likes 'emergent gameplay', and the R/D game counts as emergent whereas RP does not.

Needless to say, this is rather disturbing.

And no, I'm not feeling comfortable being known as a second class citizen.

[New Babylonia]

I'm finding it hard to believe reports that there'll be a compromise on the matter because:

The difficult thing, and I'll be frank, is that it is official Moderation policy that Gameplay is more important than Roleplay. I'm not being hyperbolic or trying to stir up something. This is actually an official Moderation policy enforced from the highest levels.

What is trolling anywhere else does not count as trolling within Gameplay due to this.

So I'll be honest that I am pessimistic about change, though we'll work for it.

However, you should all know that the official mod position--as set from on high by people like Max Berry himself--is that gameplay is to be considered higher than RP. Things which would be considered trolling or grieving by other players are alright when they're done by game players using the hard code of the game. Why? Because Max Barry likes 'emergent gameplay', and the R/D game counts as emergent whereas RP does not.

Needless to say, this is rather disturbing.

And no, I'm not feeling comfortable being known as a second class citizen.

And he's not the only one. In case all the anger and demand of greater action wasn't enough to point this out.

[Aurora Confederacy]

Furthermore, as a MODERATOR, to which I am definately NOT, i thought the duty was to ensure that site rules were adhered to and their position was to be somewhere in or around the neutral side of the game, be it r/d or rp, therefore to actively endulge in trying to force a region to be liberated and posting it as a moderator, correct me if I am wrong but isn't that just slightly biased?

[Vangaziland]

10+ years of history? Nostalgia?

Apparently Mall (and few others) doesn't give much value to that 10+ years of History or nostalgia. Save that nostalgia and Back up WFE, regional happenings, make few screenshots or use external utilities made for these purposes...

If refounding won't be successful, atleast you have your photos and Diaries for saving that Nostalgia and fond Memories.

Why there should be islands of Never changing stability and invulnerability in the Multiverse?

How come the mod didn't warn this raider troll about flame baiting? He's been hanging out for awhile just instigating? There seems to be a clear cut case of favoritism towards protecting these trolls agendas. Prove me wrong. But no, I'm more likely to get warned for bringing it up, right?

[Coraxion]

RPers here are generally speaking trying change how game work and GPers are trying tell them how it work currently, so they can Opt out from Gameplay. Of course we are "trolls" to them, when doing so.