Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Nierr]

Actually, I give to you one of the very first RP mentors:Milograd, also a member of The Black Hawks.

He is no longer a mentor, and justly so. His green jacket was forfeit the moment he started to delve into R/D.

Prove he lost mentorship for joining in on R/D.

Also, he was involved in gameplay long before mentors were a thing.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's probably best not to post.

[New Babylonia]

And what specific regions are those? Are we to go by who has the "Role Play" tag? Interesting note, Nova Chrysalia, which is SSC's region, doesn't have a "Role Play" tag on it. Guess his region isn't a RP region, even though it specifically states otherwise in the WFE. And how many people who don't Role Play would throw up that tag when they learn no Raider will attack them if they have it?

No, specific names of specific regions please.

There's ~17000 regions in the game. NO ONE is going to compile such a list for you out of that number.

It stops raiders, but it doesn't stop unwelcome people from entering the region. You need an EXEC delegate for that.

Babylonia, if this is about stopping unwelcome people from entering the region why not just have the founder put passwords and, put a disclaimer in the WFE to telegram the Delegate and put a special dispatch on the delegate's Factbook detailing who he hands the password to and the criteria followed (anyone can ask and get the password, or the person has to meet certain criteria)?

The point is, for founder-less regions, non-exec delegate is not an option, and that is just one example why.

[Virana]

Actually, I give to you one of the very first RP mentors:Milograd, also a member of The Black Hawks.

He is no longer a mentor, and justly so. His green jacket was forfeit the moment he started to delve into R/D.

To be fair, and I'm saying this as a mentor, I highly highly highly highly doubt he lost his mentorship because he delved into R/D. I've done defending as a mentor before. And I probably wouldn't lose mentorship if I went into raiding.

[Cata Larga]

He is no longer a mentor, and justly so. His green jacket was forfeit the moment he started to delve into R/D.

Prove he lost mentorship for joining in on R/D.

Also, he was involved in gameplay long before mentors were a thing.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's probably best not to post.

Then he never should have been a mentor. RP mentors have no place in R/D, and if mentorship somehow wasn't lost because of it, it ought have been and it ought to be.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And what specific regions are those? Are we to go by who has the "Role Play" tag? Interesting note, Nova Chrysalia, which is SSC's region, doesn't have a "Role Play" tag on it. Guess his region isn't a RP region, even though it specifically states otherwise in the WFE. And how many people who don't Role Play would throw up that tag when they learn no Raider will attack them if they have it?

No, specific names of specific regions please.

There's ~17000 regions in the game. NO ONE is going to compile such a list for you out of that number.

If we can compile a team of, say, 100 people we can go to more or less 170 regions each and ask people if they want to be out of the R/D game completely or if they have any interest of going into it, or what is their opinion about the R/D game. We only would need to ask the founder and/or delegate of the region since they speak for the region.

[Nephmir]

There's ~17000 regions in the game. NO ONE is going to compile such a list for you out of that number.

Fun Fact: Almost 16000 (87%) of those are either password protected, founderless, or both.

[Nierr]

Prove he lost mentorship for joining in on R/D.

Also, he was involved in gameplay long before mentors were a thing.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's probably best not to post.

Then he never should have been a mentor. RP mentors have no place in R/D, and if mentorship somehow wasn't lost because of it, it ought have been and it ought to be.

No. You're wrong. You're so wrong it's even funny.

You can be an r/der and an RPer and to pretend that R/Ding somehow effects RP mentoring is a joke.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There's ~17000 regions in the game. NO ONE is going to compile such a list for you out of that number.

Fun Fact: Almost 16000 (87%) of those are either password protected, founderless, or both.

So, that knocks out more than 1000 regions.

[Nierr]

There's ~17000 regions in the game. NO ONE is going to compile such a list for you out of that number.

Fun Fact: Almost 16000 (87%) of those are either password protected, founderless, or both.

You have a terrible definition of fun.

[Cata Larga]

Then he never should have been a mentor. RP mentors have no place in R/D, and if mentorship somehow wasn't lost because of it, it ought have been and it ought to be.

No. You're wrong. You're so wrong it's even funny.

You can be an r/der and an RPer and to pretend that R/Ding somehow effects RP mentoring is a joke.

I'd find it hard to trust an RP mentor who could, by all means, be involved in the planning of raids of RP regions.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

[Nierr]

No. You're wrong. You're so wrong it's even funny.

You can be an r/der and an RPer and to pretend that R/Ding somehow effects RP mentoring is a joke.

I'd find it hard to trust an RP mentor who could, by all means, be involved in the planning of raids of RP regions.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Yes. Especially as, to my knowledge, Milograd has always spoken out against R/D involvement in RP, to the extent that it's part of the reason he couped TSP.

[Virana]

No. You're wrong. You're so wrong it's even funny.

You can be an r/der and an RPer and to pretend that R/Ding somehow effects RP mentoring is a joke.

I'd find it hard to trust an RP mentor who could, by all means, be involved in the planning of raids of RP regions.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

R/D stands for "raiding/defending", in case you didn't know.

I've done R/D as a mentor before. I don't see what defending has to do with being an RP mentor. Nor do I see what raiding TSP (not an RP-dedicated region, mind you) has to do with being an RP mentor.

[Maltropia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Milo didn't even raid TSP. It was a coup from within, and he held an elected position. Right?

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Milo didn't even raid TSP. It was a coup from within, and he held an elected position. Right?

Correct. Anyone calling it a raid knows nothing about GP and should be ignored on that basis.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Yes. Especially as, to my knowledge, Milograd has always spoken out against R/D involvement in RP, to the extent that it's part of the reason he couped TSP.

It was.

[Virana]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Milo didn't even raid TSP. It was a coup from within, and he held an elected position. Right?

Yeah, that's right - my mistake.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Hell, I've done defending in the past, though that was before the concept of a P2TM Mentor (or P2TM itself) were things.

Mentors can do R/D. It does not effect their mentoring.

[The Batorys]

What if regions could opt-out of R/D, but the penalty for that would be that if you came from an an opt-out region, if you were a WA member, you wouldn't be able to endorse anyone after moving regions for like, I don't know, a couple weeks or a month or something? So you couldn't just spur of the moment move from an opt-out region and take part in a raid or a defense.

That way they couldn't really be used as bases for R/D while having protection from it.

[The Serbian Empire]

What if regions could opt-out of R/D, but the penalty for that would be that if you came from an an opt-out region, if you were a WA member, you wouldn't be able to endorse anyone after moving regions for like, I don't know, a couple weeks or a month or something? So you couldn't just spur of the moment move from an opt-out region and take part in a raid or a defense.

That way they couldn't really be used as bases for R/D while having protection from it.

Even more coding chaos which will make it unlikely, but definitely a good safeguard idea in theory.

[The Batorys]

What if regions could opt-out of R/D, but the penalty for that would be that if you came from an an opt-out region, if you were a WA member, you wouldn't be able to endorse anyone after moving regions for like, I don't know, a couple weeks or a month or something? So you couldn't just spur of the moment move from an opt-out region and take part in a raid or a defense.

That way they couldn't really be used as bases for R/D while having protection from it.

Even more coding chaos which will make it unlikely, but definitely a good safeguard idea in theory.

Yeah, I know it would be logistically possibly difficult to code, but I was just thinking of the various arguments against an opt-out, mainly the ones about how such a thing would be abused, and the idea just struck me that to avoid an opt-out being abused, there needed to be a significant enough drawback to using it, for an individual user, so that it wouldn't be used unless you really wanted to opt-out of R/D for the immediate future. To work, it has to be enough of a pain in the ass that you won't use it unless you're serious.

Making it so that having a WA nation in an opt-out region would disqualify it from participating in even endorsing a delegate for two weeks or something after leaving that region is just the first thing that sprang to mind. Is two weeks a long time, in NS terms? Sure, but if it's going to resist abuse, a solution needs to have a pretty potent downside. We could even make it a month or more.

I don't mean for this to replace founders or passwords, by the way. Obviously raider regions and any regions that wanted to be open to people who wanted to do several aspects of NS including gameplay wouldn't set the opt-out, because that would discourage anyone even remotely interested in gameplay from joining. It would make it so that if you chose to opt-out of R/D, you'd have to be pretty damn committed to that stance, because you really would be deciding that you couldn't participate for quite a while after, even if you changed your mind.

[The Orson Empire]

Have you guys even taken a look at the R/D summit:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=258968

Look at all those ideas that are going to be implemented. This will definitely change the R/D game.

[Esternial]

Have you guys even taken a look at the R/D summit:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=258968

Look at all those ideas that are going to be implemented. This will definitely change the R/D game.

Yes.

Doesn't mean we can't look for any supplemental measures to further protect people from experiencing too much of an inconvenience due to a game they do not want to be associated with.

[Cata Larga]

Fair enough. I remain distrustful of mentors who have raided or couped whilst wearing the green jacket, though.

Call me paranoid or a hard-liner or stubborn or whatever you may.

[Avenio]

Have you guys even taken a look at the R/D summit:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=258968

Look at all those ideas that are going to be implemented. This will definitely change the R/D game.

Look at the dates on all the other threads. The actual summit was held in December 2012. It took an entire year for the mods to even decide what changes would be on the docket.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm not holding my breath in jittery anticipation.

[Mexico_IIV]

Sign me up.

Invaders may say that innocents are needed to simulate RL wars so that the amusement they get from playing the I/D game isn't hurt. They may say that RPers region should accept that they can be invaded and all their hard work destroyed,"because it is a game". While at the same time in ensuring that they have a founder so no one can ruin their fun.

I get that they want to have fun, I get that they think so little of their own game that they feel if there was a permanent op-out button everyone would take it and ruin their fun (even those most players don't even do anything beside answer issues and are unaware there is a metagame that they should be protecting themselves from.) From the side of its only a game, yeah this whole discussion is stupid.

But I have to ask, if your amusement can only be gotten from causing other people pain and grief, is it ethically ok to do so anyway? No one would say it ok to smash a painting that someone had spent years and thousands of hours working on, so you can gain some brief enjoyment. After all building things take years, destroying them take seconds. So if you need these few RPer regions out of the thousands that exist because there is something more at stake (the thousands of hours spend building a RP community that wants noting to do with the I/D game.) Such simulating having civilians and morals like in a real war and such increase your own enjoyment, aren't you being a bit of a dick?

After all, as so many of you are found of saying, it is only a game. Well is playing your game worth causing real humans a whole lot of grief and pain when they didn't sign up to play your game? Instead of playing a game like you, they are seeing their work, effort and passion being destroyed before their very eyes. The place where they hang out and connect to other people, the place where they spend a large part of their life working to create something that is enjoyed by many people. They aren't playing a game, and you don't get to decide for them that their RP regions are just "a game". You don't get to decide for them that they won't feel sadness, anguish, pain or helplessness. I don't know about you, but just because I will never meet or see those who exist on the other side of the computer screens, I still care about their happiness and well being.

In real life I find it in poor taste to make someone the target of a cruel prank for a cheap laugh or to tell jokes that offend people. I know most people won't care, but there exist those who it can cause a lot of pain to and I don't want to be responsible for that. You may disagree that we should self-regulate ourselves to avoid the chance of causing people harm, but if you ever felt huge terrible pain, why would you ever risk inflicting that horror on someone else?

I know personally years ago I was in a very dark place, I had hit rock bottom, everything I thought I had going for me had collapsed or failed, I felt utterly alone, left without any hope, feeling that my mere presence on the world was too much to bear. That the best thing I could ever do for my loves ones was to end my life. I was so depressed I couldn't do anything that once brought me joy. I had a suicide note written next to my pc when I finally logged back into nationstates so I could post my goodbyes. I planned on leaving my suicide note in the one place where I felt like was home, one place where I felt I didn't had to keep watching my back, wasn't a constant failure or a useless being who dragged others down. I wanted to thank my friends, my only friends for being a port I could take shelter in from the rough seas of my life.

I logged in to find that (and these include the same people who have posted in this very thread stating it is just a game, why would you try to ruin my fun,etc) the region I was a delegate in had been invaded. The invasion caused the death of the region and led me to in my very depressed state feeling like I had finally failed every single person in my life, that no one could depend on me, that I was utterly worthless. I felt like these life long friends hated me now and wanted noting to do with me. In my worst moment the place I turned to for comfort was held by invaders who were just enjoying playing their game and being amused for a couple of days before moving on and forgetting about it. That invasion almost droved me to suicide. They would never had known, nor really cared. They would had explained it away as not their problem, they aren't responsible for every random person feelings, etc.

To you this is a game, to me at the time, it was my life. Now it merely plays a major role in my life. I am in a better place now, I got the help I need and all my friends are mostly still here, even if they drift away due to real life and other priorities for a little while or forever. But I won't ever forget the damage that invasion caused on my fragile mental state.

Nationstate is not a game to me, it is a home. I never signed up to be tossed into the I/D game and I should be given the option to op-out just like school kids are when they sign up as a class. There will always be far more regions in the I/D game simply due to ignorance, then would ever op-out. The only thing you might lose is a tiny bit of enjoyment for a little while vs those who would be freed from what can simply be a bit of harmless fun, to out right bullying or more.

And yes that is right, it is already written into the code to be able to create regions that don't have to deal with the invader/defender game.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=educators