Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Premislyd]

It's not within the moderators' jurisdiction to "fix" anything. Gameplay fixes are programmed at the top of the flag pole. And even then, they take months to program, test, troubleshoot, and implement. The moderators are just doing their job: enforcing site rules, reiterating what administration has publicly announced as their stance, and letting you know that those are the facts. You're blaming the wrong people.

I haven't seen any "Hey guys, we know this is a problem, working on it".

Probably because it's not their job. Or did you not read thon's post??????????????????

(Image)

You know, things like that aren't helping your cause.

Posts like this aren't helping your cause.

(Image)

Thanks for once again establishing that raiders are totally unwilling to honestly deal with us.

Where did he say he was a raider?

[The balkens]

If you're just here to make wild, hysterical, totally unsupported accusations and generalizations, I'd like to ask you - in my non-ownership, random-person-on-the-street capacity - to please leave. You're not helping your case any.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand threadjack.

This entire thread is a thread jack. I will defend the game I play as much as you defend yours. You think you're contributing something here, and you're not. This isn't helping anyone's case.

It's not generalizations- this thread is moving too fast to respond to each poster directly.

However, I will stop posting (for now) and leave you to your illusions that you're actually getting something accomplished by arguing your faulty cases here.

I wish you luck.

If anyone is arguing for faulty cases here, it's you.

As far as I know, nobody was ever forced to take part in a RP. But, Players who take part in the R/D game seem to expect (or perhaps Demand is the appropriate term) that RP regions be subjected to raiding.

How is this fair? Don't answer, it isint and everyone capable of thought should realize this.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Where did he say he was a raider?

Erm...judging from his posting a raider gif/jpeg/whatever and nothing else, a pretty classic raider move on these sorts of threads?
What should I have assumed, exactly?
Also, you're an easily amused sort, aren't you?

[Virana]

It's not within the moderators' jurisdiction to "fix" anything. Gameplay fixes are programmed at the top of the flag pole. And even then, they take months to program, test, troubleshoot, and implement. The moderators are just doing their job: enforcing site rules, reiterating what administration has publicly announced as their stance, and letting you know that those are the facts. You're blaming the wrong people.

I haven't seen any "Hey guys, we know this is a problem, working on it".

Correct. Instead, you've seen "Hey guys, administration has been very clear about this issue."

Additionally, as I've reiterated, it's not a moderator's responsibility to fix it. They don't program the game. And don't direct anything at the administrators, either; I'm sure they'd be open to any suggestions on how we can address this problem. It's not simple; any solution that would satisfy all the communities would be very popular, I'd imagine. That's something to address in Technical, though.

[Premislyd]

Where did he say he was a raider?

Erm...judging from his posting a raider gif/jpeg/whatever and nothing else, a pretty classic raider move on these sorts of threads?
What should I have assumed, exactly?
Also, you're an easily amused sort, aren't you?

Maybe he's a troll.

Or a defender.

you know what they say about assumptions, though

[Verdo-Releignia]

Now while my sadistic side would enjoy it to a great extent, my logical side says no gtfo.

[Esternial]

You know, things like that aren't helping your cause.

Implying I have a cause.

Thought you were smarter/better than to picspam Moderation, Tippercommon, considering your good work in GE&T.

Now please, can you let the people here (that are actually trying) continue their attempt to keep this shambling dialogue afoot?

[New Babylonia]

You know, things like that aren't helping your cause.

Implying I have a cause.

If you don't and have nothing to contribute, don't post here.

[Grenartia]

Speaking as someone that doesn't do this whole R/D thing, most raiders consider NS as just a game. For the most part, especially on IRC, raiders are decent. More so than many that have been speaking in this thread.

And most RPers consider this a community and a place where they can write out their fantasies. Your point being?

The fact people are being hostile is tied in to the fact people are forcing them to do something they don't want. It's not fun when you are having fun writing and someone else comes, takes your notebook and tosses it on top of a house's rooftop and forces you to play "let's see who gives who a wedgie" against your will or else they won't try to get your notebook back.

And if you resist, they toss waterballons on your notebook to ruin all your work.

@The Serbian Empire

Don't try to attribute the way we play the game to how we are in real life, especially if you haven't met us, know us, or have even visited one of our regions off site forums. Come and talk to us, chill out in the IRC, play a few spam games on the forum, participate in one of the RP's that we have before you try and judge the player behind the screen.

You may be nice and chilled out, it doesn't excuse the fact you're forcing everyone else to play your version of the game.

I can be the nicest guy in the world but if I act like a prick and shit on people's parades all day long they will consider me a prick.

Its like saying "I'm a nice guy. Unless you don't do what I want.". Its hypocritical.

I just don't see the point of you pointing out "hostiles" when raiders also use hostility and coercion to achieve their goals.

I've used the word hostile once in this thread and last I checked Unibot wasn't a raider. So tell me again why raiders being hostile makes it okay to be hostile towards him?

Who, praytell, are these people (plural, so I expect multiple examples) who're "hostile" to Unibot?

You may be nice and chilled out, it doesn't excuse the fact you're forcing everyone else to play your version of the game.

I can be the nicest guy in the world but if I act like a prick and shit on people's parades all day long they will consider me a prick.

but that's the thing, Military Gameplay is seen as a part of the game. Not necessarily "Let's be massive douchetrolls to people". Granted, some may feel that way or want to act that way, but that's not accurate. Think about it this way, Roleplay is Roleplay, but Gameplay is basically a simulation.

You can look at the games issues, categories, the WA and you notice the satire, parody, and not quite RL but something based off of it. For Gameplay folks this is our simulation. Many regions form a simulated government that is distinct enough not to be Roleplay itself (whether you classify it as a branch of RP or not). We have our version of Politics and Military Gameplay, that also like the game itself is not entirely based on RL. Every region that has activity has some sort of community and at the end of the day can be summarized into some larger label; Gameplay, Roleplay, and branches of each if you want to be more specific like Military Gameplay or P2TM, etc.

RPs regions get "harassed" militarily (Not talking about rulebreaking here) and occasionally get destroyed or occupied. Milograd even once said that Roleplay is not entirely compatible with Gameplay to paraphrase. I don't want to see all the RPers be pushed out nor all their "works" and communities be destroyed, and I doubt they'll ever be entirely destroyed.

1. But, despite being roleplayers, when it comes to having a nation, you are de facto Gameplayers first even if you don't participate in more than just issues, etc. You are to an extent "forced" to participate, that's just game mechanics, whereas no one is "forced" into RP. That is unfortunate, and despite being a raider now and having at times an evil or cynical side, 2. but I don't think RP regions should be able to opt-out. 3. There are many opt outs already; less reliance on the game itself, founders, forums, etc.

4. It may seem like a bunch of extra work, but it's not if you're prepared.

There once was an argument of founders iirc. I understand that RP regions tend to be psuedo-democracies in the sense that all RPers are equal, except maybe the player RP mods, and usually the Founder is not meant to be a totalitarian being. But everytime an RP region is created and built up, those RPers should realize that 5. keeping the founder nation alive and 6. protecting the region should be an important priority at least where gameplay mechanics come into play. If you can solve that issue, you will effectively be opt-out of the rest of gameplay that you all want to avoid.

7. If you are founderless, then work with legitimate defender groups to refound if you must.

1. Here's where you start being wrong. Every other aspect of gameplay is entirely voluntary (I myself haven't answered an issue in months), and none of it inherently negatively affects RP. Nothing happens that you don't want, or didn't explicitly acknowledge would happen by participating in (and even then, none of them permanently negatively affect you). R/D is the only exception, which is an error that needs to be corrected.

2. I don't think R/Ders should be able to opt out of RP.

3. And we've already explained why those things aren't good enough.

4. Except it is, and it inherently distracts us from RP. I've already got enough distractions from RP, and as soon as this debate gets resolved once and for all, I'll have one less.

5. You say that like anybody but the founder has anything to do with it.

6. It shouldn't have to be.

7. Involving ourselves with defenders inherently makes us involved in R/D. We shouldn't have to do that.

-snip-

Your entire argument can be condensed into thus:

"I don't care what you think, you by having a nation has to play by my rules"

No, I fucking don't. If I don't want to play your silly game then I don't have to. Just because I am in a playing ground and there's a soccer field in it doesn't mean I have to be forced to play soccer because "it's in the park, you have to play it!" I fucking don't have to play soccer if I don't want to. Same between RPing and Gameplay, I should not be forced to defend my region just because I am in NS; I have more things that take my attention and my time than dealing with you people.

Do you have a point that these are "game mechanics"? Yes. Does that invalidate my freedom to choose not to take part in what I see a waste of time? No.

Exactly.

When reading and participating to this endless discussion, I've got pretty clear picture what I gonna suggest for next targetting priorities, and only for helping RPers find the ways to Opt Out from the aspects of the game they don't like... and cannot see and/or Accept. If it requires some 'catastrophic' happenings here and there, so be it.

I'm roleplayer myself too.

Yay for gloating, threats, and trolling. Its just like 6 months ago. I'm honestly not surprised. I'll say, however, that any raids or attempted raids against RP regions will only strengthen our resolve, not weaken it. And I'll bet any attacks against other groups will only convince them to join us.

Been there about 6 months ago, done that, got personally disrespected in a manner that makes /b/ look polite (actually, I was treated more respectfully by /b/ than I was in the gameplay IRC). My experiences with raiders have been nothing but negativ, to the point where I find it incredibly hard to believe most of you are decent people (some of you certainly might be, and you definitely seem to at least try to be diplomatic, which is more than I can say for your comrades).

Name the channel(s), please, don't just call them all "the gameplay IRC"- there are a lot of different channels with different groups of people in them. Don't paint all raiders with the /b/ brush unless you want some of us to start detailing the experiences we've had trying to try out roleplaying.

#Nationstates. OPped by Blaat and Sedge, IIRC.

Still Elke and Alba et all. Am I only one here in this thread who has managed to opt out from the Gameplay with My own Home region?

That requires Only:
1. Trying keep Founder alive
2. Barred Delegate Access/Non-executive Delegate
3. Regional Password (not shared with people you can't trust)
4. Adding off Site Forum Link(s) to WFE

And this is 'Perfect' Opt Out, allowed in NS. All above options have not to be set 'Opt Out' simultaneously.

1. Can't be guaranteed, and thus isn't reliable.
2. Out of the question.
3. We've already implemented that, only to have "Liberate Haven" come up. So not reliable, either.
4. We shouldn't have to do that.

Apparently Mall (and few others) doesn't give much value to that 10+ years of History or nostalgia. Save that nostalgia and Back up WFE, regional happenings, make few screenshots or use external utilities made for these purposes...

If refounding won't be successful, atleast you have your photos and Diaries for saving that Nostalgia and fond Memories.

Why there should be islands of Never changing stability and invulnerability in the Multiverse?

Or people could not be a dick about internet sandcastles because they have to compensate somehow and hummers are just too expensive.

Look how massive my e-cock is!

Little hard to save the history and nostalgia for us in Sapphire when it consists of nearly 3000 pages worth of RMB posts

Not their problem. Everybody on the site should bend over backwards and suck Raider dick, whether they want to or not. But Raiders shouldn't have to do the same. Don't go expecting special privileges now, because only Raiders get those.

[Stevid]

It's not within the moderators' jurisdiction to "fix" anything. Gameplay fixes are programmed at the top of the flag pole. And even then, they take months to program, test, troubleshoot, and implement. The moderators are just doing their job: enforcing site rules, reiterating what administration has publicly announced as their stance, and letting you know that those are the facts. You're blaming the wrong people.

I haven't seen any "Hey guys, we know this is a problem, working on it".

Well last time they said they would discuss the issue, and in the end the RPers concluded the best course of action was to password protect the region ben though that doesn't promote growth. I don't know what conclusions the admins/mods came to but a another form of delegacy was touted. But that's a gameplay tweak, all code and whiz that I don't understand. Apparently it's complicated stuff and also time consuming when they add stuff to the game.

But this is waaaay bigger than the last time and it is too big to ignore. Rest assured, you might not have had an answer from them but they will be paying close attention.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Erm...judging from his posting a raider gif/jpeg/whatever and nothing else, a pretty classic raider move on these sorts of threads?
What should I have assumed, exactly?
Also, you're an easily amused sort, aren't you?

Maybe he's a troll.
Or a defender.

I really doubt it.
If this is the best argument you have for me being wrong about literally anything, I'll tell you now, it's not very convincing.

you know what they say about assumptions, though

That they're a necessary part of discourse, given that the truth of everything is not immediately obvious to everyone?

[Premislyd]

Implying I have a cause.

If you don't and have nothing to contribute, don't post here.

What's the contribution behind this post?

I really doubt it.

A person who's never posted in this thread before, fully knowing of the mass butthurt the RPers have over nothing, posts a "pro-Raider" picture. Surely xe can't be trolling.

Perhaps this is why NSG is so easy to troll.

[Grenartia]

1. Guys, everything you're saying about GP is a mutual feeling towards RP. I feel that RP is a waste of time because it doesn't amount to anything bigger, which is the same exact thing you're all saying about GP. And then you say "but look at what we accomplish by it!", and I see nothing, just like I say "but look at what we've accomplished!" and you see nothing. 2. Don't act like RP is superior and you know what the hell you're talking about. Have any of you ever tried actual serious raiding or defending? Because I've tried RP before on multiple occasions, and I can't stand it.

And then you say "we're forced to take part in their childish games!" (I'm not going to comment on this specifically). 3. The thing is, very few regions are ever forced into it, and when they are they are either 4. (1) not entirely innocent or (2) 5. try to go about their business without a founder. It's quite a simple concept, really. 6. A region without a founder has no owner, and is therefore up for grabs by anyone who wishes to make it theirs. 7. Just found another region, or 8. ask Defenders for help refounding if it's that important!

1. Maybe you'd have a valid point if you were forced to RP. But you're not, so you don't.

2. Then don't act like R/D is so superior you get to shove it down our throats. I don't want to suck your e-dick, and I shouldn't have to.

3. The fact that any are is objectionable.

4. Classic victim blaming. Congratulations, you just used the same argument rape apologists use IRL.

5. Because they have no other choice.

6. Except for its community. Which raiders are not a part of.

7. And lose the history and important RMB posts?

8. Which is inherently forcing us to take part in R/D.

[Oaledonia]

Either way, it's a spam pic. Spoiler it.

[Esternial]

Guys, guys. At least make an effort to stay on topic, or this is going to get locked real soon.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

If you don't and have nothing to contribute, don't post here.

What's the contribution behind this post?

I really doubt it.

A person who's never posted in this thread before, fully knowing of the mass butthurt the RPers have over nothing, posts a "pro-Raider" picture. Surely xe can't be trolling.

Are you suggesting that raiders are typically trolls?
Because this sort of move, you're right, is a troll-style move - but it's also pretty typical of raiders on GP, from what I've seen.
Being a troll vs. a raider isn't a mutually exclusive thing.
At any rate, this is literally a pointless debate. Who cares what he is?

Perhaps this is why NSG is so easy to troll.

At any rate, it's picspam, so it's hardly difficult to fix.

[The Serbian Empire]

If you don't and have nothing to contribute, don't post here.

What's the contribution behind this post?

I really doubt it.

A person who's never posted in this thread before, fully knowing of the mass butthurt the RPers have over nothing, posts a "pro-Raider" picture. Surely xe can't be trolling.

Perhaps this is why NSG is so easy to troll.

Claiming that NSG and other forums are easy to troll isn't helping you not look like a raider.

[Esternial]

*sigh*

I think setting up a government in Belgium is easier than finding a compromise between you lot.

[Premislyd]

Are you suggesting that raiders are typically trolls?
Because this sort of move, you're right, is a troll-style move - but it's also pretty typical of raiders on GP, from what I've seen.
Being a troll vs. a raider isn't a mutually exclusive thing.
At any rate, this is literally a pointless debate. Who cares what he is?

I'm not suggesting anything, other than I have confirmation that Tippercommon is trolling, but quite frankly you're obliviousness to it is too funny.

Claiming that NSG and other forums are easy to troll isn't helping you not look like a raider.

NSG is easy to troll because of silly people like you and The Tiger Kingdom who don't know trolling, even when it's as blatant as Tippercommon's.

But I can confirm I'm not a raider.

Pinky promise <3<3<3<3

[Avenio]

*sigh*

I think setting up a government in Belgium is easier than finding a compromise between you lot.

Could be worse. Half of us could be speaking French and the other half Flemish.

Either way, seriously everyone. Keep on topic. The last thing is for this whole thing to be locked and thrown into the memory hole because some of us couldn't refrain from chasing shiny objects.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Are you suggesting that raiders are typically trolls?
Because this sort of move, you're right, is a troll-style move - but it's also pretty typical of raiders on GP, from what I've seen.
Being a troll vs. a raider isn't a mutually exclusive thing.
At any rate, this is literally a pointless debate. Who cares what he is?

I'm not suggesting anything, other than I have confirmation that Tippercommon is trolling, but quite frankly you're obliviousness to it is too funny.

Fine. He's trolling, if you insist.
What difference does it make?

NSG is easy to troll because of silly people like you and The Tiger Kingdom who don't know trolling, even when it's as blatant as Tippercommon's.

So why aren't you reporting him for trolling, then?
Because otherwise, you seem to be verging on trollnaming, an equally odious offense (apparently).

But I can confirm I'm not a raider.
Pinky promise <3<3<3<3

So why are you here, exactly?

[The balkens]

*sigh*

I think setting up a government in Belgium is easier than finding a compromise between you lot.

With opposing viewpoints like these? Why would it be easy?

You have Raiders wanting to fuck up regions for what seems to a notch on their bed posts and you have RPers that want to have nothing to do with that.

[Aurora Confederacy]

an idea:

In a way to opt in or out, perhaps those regions which DO NOT WANT TO BE PART of the R/D community, the WAD that us up coming has to be sworn in, and that is a simple tick box, (just like giving WAD regional control by the founder),
therefore if this box remains unticked, things go on as normal for that region, however regions which wish to be part of the RP community this box can be ticked, so as a WAC gets votes, it then becomes elegable to become a WAD, only where as currently the WAC becomes WAD once it has more endorsements than the other players, if the box is ticked, the WAC can only become WAD once it has 1: recieved more endorsements (as usual) 2: handed the control by the founder, or in the case of a founderless region, the incumbant WAD

[Premislyd]

So why aren't you reporting him for trolling, then?

Why should I? His trolling isn't affecting me.

Because otherwise, you seem to be verging on trollnaming, an equally odious offense (apparently).

Where did I call him a troll?

(Hint: I never did oooo)

So why are you here, exactly?

Why are you here?

[The Serbian Empire]

Are you suggesting that raiders are typically trolls?
Because this sort of move, you're right, is a troll-style move - but it's also pretty typical of raiders on GP, from what I've seen.
Being a troll vs. a raider isn't a mutually exclusive thing.
At any rate, this is literally a pointless debate. Who cares what he is?

I'm not suggesting anything, other than I have confirmation that Tippercommon is trolling, but quite frankly you're obliviousness to it is too funny.

Claiming that NSG and other forums are easy to troll isn't helping you not look like a raider.

NSG is easy to troll because of silly people like you and The Tiger Kingdom who don't know trolling, even when it's as blatant as Tippercommon's.

But I can confirm I'm not a raider.

Pinky promise <3<3<3<3

You know troll naming is against the rules, right?