Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[The Serbian Empire]

we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

That's what defenders have been saying for years, though. That's why a lot of us (including me) defend. What I'm trying to get across in this thread is that the cause badly needs help and it's the easiest way for players here to have a real impact against invaders, in the event that the changes we all are seeking aren't implemented.

A lot of roleplayers are dismissive of defenders as just the "other side of the coin", when in fact, many of us share your opinion on invasions and are just doing our part to provide relief to invaded regions. Ultimately, if the game admins aren't willing to change the code, someone has to stand up and help these communities and if you feel like you've got some spare time, I can tell you right now that your help would be appreciated and invaluable.

The problem is the raiders use off-site forums as to make it nearly impossible to defend against the larger ones.

[Nephmir]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

[Virana]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

(Edit: I guess I should note that that last sentence should be attributed to Korladis/The Batorys, not me)

[New Babylonia]

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

This. Is. True. Seriously. Anything that needs to be sustained by forcing people against their will to sustain it, should not be sustained at all.

[Nephmir]

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

So if something can't be kept alive without forcing it to eat food, then is that something's life meaningless? If a helicopter can't fly without fuel, then should the helicopter not exist?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

You're just not actually submitting a relevant response.
I'm not "judging the game" - if anything, the people using the "Everyone will opt-out if offered the chance" argument are. I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion of that argument.
If everybody will leave if offered the chance - as the MODS (I think it was Frisbeeteria?) SAY THEY WILL - then logically, nobody ever wanted to play in the first place. Thus, it is no loss.

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

So if something can't be kept alive without forcing it to eat food, then is that something's life meaningless? If a helicopter can't fly without fuel, then should the helicopter not exist?

I think it's obvious to everyone reading how non-equivalent those examples are.
It's more like "if a helicopter was so poorly designed that nobody would ever actually want to fly in it if offered the chance to, then should it still exist?"
The answer being no.

[New Babylonia]

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

So if something can't be kept alive without forcing it to eat food, then is that something's life meaningless? If a helicopter can't fly without fuel, then should the helicopter not exist?

R/D is not a living thing, do not compare to such. If a helicopter does not have fuel, and you cannot afford any, it should be in your possession in the first place, because its no use to you, and should be sold.

But, as a game, and a function which requires people, not another inanimate object, if you have to force these livings things to sustain your game, then your game should not exist. Because people should not be forced to play a game.

[The Serbian Empire]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

I've played the raider game with one of my puppets, but I got no success in refounding a region and found it as fruitless.

[Nephmir]

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

You're just not actually submitting a relevant response.
I'm not "judging the game" - if anything, the people using the "Everyone will opt-out if offered the chance" argument are. I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion of that argument.
If everybody will leave if offered the chance - as the MODS (I think it was Frisbeeteria?) SAY THEY WILL - then logically, nobody ever wanted to play in the first place. Thus, it is no loss.

So if something can't be kept alive without forcing it to eat food, then is that something's life meaningless? If a helicopter can't fly without fuel, then should the helicopter not exist?

I think it's obvious to everyone reading how non-equivalent those examples are.
It's more like "if a helicopter was so poorly designed that nobody would ever actually want to fly in it if offered the chance to, then should it still exist?"
The answer being no.

But nobody said "poorly designed". They said "Anything that needs to be sustained by forcing people against their will to sustain it, should not be sustained at all." Don't go back on your words, now.

The analogy made about the bullies and the teacher awhile back? Yeah, that qualifies as "comparing R/D to a living thing".

[Premislyd]

forcing people to play

ial

Who gets forced to play? Last time I checked, people willingly join the R/D community through recruitment TGs.

[Esternial]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

Have you genuinely ever used the Yahoo Toolbar?

[Nierr]

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

I've played the raider game with one of my puppets, but I got no success in refounding a region and found it as fruitless.

That's because it takes a long ass time. That's by design. That's also why you won't hear of any (or many) RP regions being completely destroyed and refounded by raiders. Nor will raiders, usually, try that.

[The Serbian Empire]

I've played the raider game with one of my puppets, but I got no success in refounding a region and found it as fruitless.

That's because it takes a long ass time. That's by design. That's also why you won't hear of any (or many) RP regions being completely destroyed and refounded by raiders. Nor will raiders, usually, try that.

I sat on for the better half of twelve hours.

[Virana]

But I have played. Multiple times. I still hold the same opinion.

If a game can't be sustained without forcing people to play it in order to gain access to the things they actually want to do, then it shouldn't exist.

So if something can't be kept alive without forcing it to eat food, then is that something's life meaningless? If a helicopter can't fly without fuel, then should the helicopter not exist?

Quite literally one of the most strawman arguments I've seen.

No, as somebody else already said, it's more like this: a helicopter is crappy and dangerous to fly, and it can't be fixed. Nobody wants to fly it. Should you continue to keep and maintain and operate the helicopter? Yeah, no. Anybody with a brain would scrap it.

[Stevid]

I'm going to go back to what I told the mods - if the perceived outcome of opt-out is that "everyone quits", then it wasn't a game ever worth playing anyways.

I know several people (including myself) have already said this several times already in many different ways, but I'll say it again. You can't judge a game you haven't even played.

Now, somebody tell me I'm "missing the point" and what fallacy I'm using

I've played R/D many, many moons ago. I found it incredibly boring.

Do Irun around the game or the forums raving about it? No.
Do I try an enforce an RP element into your day-to-day gaming? No

Do you know any RPing nations that do?

I don't judge, we play what we want to play - like you do. Find some regions and nation therein that will play with you. You keep doing this to RP regions, particularly those with a huge reputation, your are going to get scenes like what we're witnessing today over and over again.

What a stressful clusterfuck. It's easier not to pester us because we'll complain. You'll have your say, we have ours. The cycle continues like it is at the moment and then we're back to square one again. It's nothing personal, it really isn't. But R/D players shouldn't be attacking dedicated RP regions. If that is too difficult then the password should be a clear as day 'hands off'. Clearly we're mistaken.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

You're just not actually submitting a relevant response.
I'm not "judging the game" - if anything, the people using the "Everyone will opt-out if offered the chance" argument are. I'm just pointing out the logical conclusion of that argument.
If everybody will leave if offered the chance - as the MODS (I think it was Frisbeeteria?) SAY THEY WILL - then logically, nobody ever wanted to play in the first place. Thus, it is no loss.

I think it's obvious to everyone reading how non-equivalent those examples are.
It's more like "if a helicopter was so poorly designed that nobody would ever actually want to fly in it if offered the chance to, then should it still exist?"
The answer being no.

But nobody said "poorly designed".

I did.

They said "Anything that needs to be sustained by forcing people against their will to sustain it,

Presumably because of its poor design...

should not be sustained at all."

In this case, it absolutely shouldn't be. There's no reason to have it imposed on people. This isn't a draft, nor is it invested with the necessity of keeping yourself fed or your vehicle fueled. There is no comprehensible imperative that merits forcing people to play the game.

Don't go back on your words, now.

I never said that. They're not my words.
There's a little panel on the side that lets you know who wrote each post, by the way. May help you not get confused.

The analogy made about the bullies and the teacher awhile back? Yeah, that qualifies as "comparing R/D to a living thing".

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Nierr]

That's because it takes a long ass time. That's by design. That's also why you won't hear of any (or many) RP regions being completely destroyed and refounded by raiders. Nor will raiders, usually, try that.

I sat on for the better half of twelve hours.

Well yes, the only thing you'll be able to refound (refind?) in twelve hours is the motivation to never be that bored again.

[The Serbian Empire]

I sat on for the better half of twelve hours.

Well yes, the only thing you'll be able to refound (refind?) in twelve hours is the motivation to never be that bored again.

Exactly, it's a boring thing.

[Nephmir]

No, as somebody else already said, it's more like this: a helicopter is crappy and dangerous to fly, and it can't be fixed. Nobody wants to fly it. Should you continue to keep and maintain and operate the helicopter? Yeah, no. Anybody with a brain would scrap it.

But people do want to play it; it is a huge community!

You're all going on about how you're disgusted with the mods, but quite honestly, I'm disgusted that the RP mentors, who are supposed to be supporting the site's community, wish to see the largest community in NS destroyed and "scrapped".

[The Orson Empire]

Excuse me, Wordy, but if someone reads this thread and says "hey, maybe I should become a defender" -- that is a good thing. For too long, members of this site have been conflating "defenders" and "invaders" as one in the same with the same motivations -- hence the terrible "R/D" phrase. Part of the issue is many roleplayers here believe that gameplay has one unified opinion on invading -- when in fact a good chunk of us have dedicated our time to try to stop invasions because we think they are wrong.

I don't see your idea being implemented and I don't see many of the ideas here in this thread being implemented, so I think it's important that players here aren't mislead into believing there is nothing else they can do to help prevent invasions and free occupied regions.

"Enough said".

I know you and other defenders do a good job at actually defending our regions, so the blame is not shifted towards you Unibot, but the game style itself is what worries some of us, that we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

The R/D game is actually part of Nationstates. It is built into the game.

If you have ever read the FAQ, it will talk about this.

[Virana]

No, as somebody else already said, it's more like this: a helicopter is crappy and dangerous to fly, and it can't be fixed. Nobody wants to fly it. Should you continue to keep and maintain and operate the helicopter? Yeah, no. Anybody with a brain would scrap it.

But people do want to play it; it is a huge community!

You're all going on about how you're disgusted with the mods, but quite honestly, I'm disgusted that the RP mentors, who are supposed to be supporting the site's community, wish to see the largest community in NS destroyed and "scrapped".

• I didn't say I'm disgusted with the mods. I literally said the exact opposite.
• RP mentors are supposed to be supporting the site's RP community. Not supporting the GPer community. It's not an RP mentor's job to defend anything. It is their job to support and aid RPing.
• I don't want to see the largest community in NS scrapped. That's RPing.
• I also don't want to see R/D "scrapped". I've always been a vocal supporter of a solution that satisfies all sides. What I'm disappointed in is the poor justification people have given for raiding's continued existence in the first place. It's got me confused as to why it's considered legal in the first place.

Please, direct your arguments at what people have actually said. Try not to make overgeneralized assumptions.

[New Babylonia]

I know you and other defenders do a good job at actually defending our regions, so the blame is not shifted towards you Unibot, but the game style itself is what worries some of us, that we are being forced against our will to do things we didn't come to NationStates for.

The R/D game is actually part of Nationstates. It is built into the game.

If you have ever read the FAQ, it will talk about this.

It was not always built into the game though. Not intentionally, it was never intended. But it happened, and they went with it.
So, no, it was not intentionally built into the game. It just popped up.

[Nephmir]

But people do want to play it; it is a huge community!

You're all going on about how you're disgusted with the mods, but quite honestly, I'm disgusted that the RP mentors, who are supposed to be supporting the site's community, wish to see the largest community in NS destroyed and "scrapped".

• I didn't say I'm disgusted with the mods. I literally said the exact opposite.
• RP mentors are supposed to be supporting the site's RP community. Not supporting the GPer community. It's not an RP mentor's job to defend anything. It is their job to support and aid RPing.
• I don't want to see the largest community in NS scrapped. That's RPing.
• I also don't want to see R/D "scrapped". I've always been a vocal supporter of a solution that satisfies all sides. What I'm disappointed in is the poor justification people have given for raiding's continued existence in the first place. It's got me confused as to why it's considered legal in the first place.

Please, direct your arguments at what people have actually said. Try not to make overgeneralized assumptions.

Well then maybe it's about time we has GP mentors.

[Nierr]

I don't want to see the largest community in NS scrapped. That's RPing.

That's probably NSG to be honest.

[Virana]

No, as somebody else already said, it's more like this: a helicopter is crappy and dangerous to fly, and it can't be fixed. Nobody wants to fly it. Should you continue to keep and maintain and operate the helicopter? Yeah, no. Anybody with a brain would scrap it.

But people do want to play it; it is a huge community!

Then that community should continue to live on when people who don't want to play it opt-out. That is literally the point of my post: if people think introducing an opt-out would ruin the R/D game, that means that giving people voluntary responsibility to stop playing the game would ruin it - therefore, the game thrives on coercing people who do not want to play.