Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Stevid]

RPers here are generally speaking trying change how game work and GPers are trying tell them how it work currently, so they can Opt out from Gameplay. Of course we are "trolls" to them, when doing so.

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

^

This.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Let me ask you all one thing. Just one thing.

Where, explicitly, does it say, officially, that NationStates is a game of raiding and defending first and foremost?

Stuff like this, unfortunately, suggests that is indeed exactly how the admin sees it:

So... what if defenders were to decide that, say, starting tomorrow, they're really not gonna bother anymore and sit back and relax. Would you then decide to give them more advantages in the game to make up for that? Would be consistent, given your approach towards invaders...

Well, yes. If defenders all vanished tomorrow, and invaders roamed the world as they please, I would think we should balance that. I wouldn't run out and start coding, because, as you know, we tend to go years between major gameplay changes. But over the long run, I am focused on the practice of the invasion game; i.e. how often it actually happens and how often it's defeated. I'm not an invader or defender; I'll never understand exactly how easy or difficult certain things are as well as you guys do. I only observe how frequently things are happening. And my mandate is to ensure there is a reasonably active invasion game.

And the problem comes from a fundamentally skewed view of the game (the folly of which this thread demonstrates):

There is a fundamental split in NationStates that is, in my view, unresolvable.

1. Raiders / Defenders want to interact with non-raiders / non-defenders. The OP makes that point clearly. The reward for raiding is doing it to players that don't want it. The reward for defenders is to protect the victims.
2. Non-raiders / non-defenders do not want to interact with Raiders / Defenders. Period. They want to be left alone.

You cannot reconcile the two.

That's undoubtedly true, but there's a third group between the two, holding the majority of our players. Those people either have no opinion about the invasion game, are mildly in favor or against it, or don't think they like it until they find themselves in it, then quite enjoy it.

I have no interest in forcing people in Group 2 to play the invasion game. My ideal situation is one in which Group 1 has a fun invasion game, Group 2 is immune to it, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle.

Working from first principles like this, which have been raised many times long before even these posts, there is just a basic refusal to acknowledge the incompatibility of a style of play that rests on having the rest of the game be unwilling victims with the desire of those majority of players just to be left alone.

[Nierr]

RPers here are generally speaking trying change how game work and GPers are trying tell them how it work currently, so they can Opt out from Gameplay. Of course we are "trolls" to them, when doing so.

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

What part of someone using a game mechanic the way it can be used is changing how the game works?

[Keyboard Warriors]

This begs the question: do all raiders want this proposal to pass or is it only one particular group of raiders? I still find the proposal in bad taste and I know it will cause even more division in an already divided forum but other than Coraxion, what's the take of the raiders?

Against. I don't agree with raiding innocent regions for fun.

Can I ask why you as a raider has created a region that's essentially protected from other raiders because you are the founder?

[Keyboard Warriors]

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

What part of someone using a game mechanic the way it can be used is changing how the game works?

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

[Esternial]

RPers here are generally speaking trying change how game work and GPers are trying tell them how it work currently, so they can Opt out from Gameplay. Of course we are "trolls" to them, when doing so.

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

At the very least, I believe an apology is in order.

Demanding a resignation is a bit prematurely and somewhat overkill, but it'll be up to you to regain the trust you've lost, Mall.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

What part of someone using a game mechanic the way it can be used is changing how the game works?

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

Perhaps he likes raiding but not getting raided.

[Coraxion]

RPers here are generally speaking trying change how game work and GPers are trying tell them how it work currently, so they can Opt out from Gameplay. Of course we are "trolls" to them, when doing so.

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

How exactly? Isn't he just using same possibilities that are granted for ALL players? And If you've not yet realized, ALL Moderators are nations in This Game, They are players just like anyone else and they must follow rules themselves too.

[Rethan]

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

Yep.

Except no. Nothing this player is doing (IMO it should be largely irrelevant that he's a mod until he starts abusing mod powers) is changing how the game works. The game is working precisely as intended. However, there will always be those who use tools and functions of a game in ways that could be construed as abuse or unsportsmanlike behaviour. If anything, that's all this player is doing. He's not changing the game in any way shape or form.

Should he have probably avoided doing it? Certainly. It's poor behaviour, and was always going to cause hilarious levels of drama. That's not game changing though.

[New Babylonia]

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

How exactly? Isn't he just using same possibilities that are granted for ALL players? And If you've not yet realized, ALL Moderators are nations in This Game, They are players just like anyone else and they must follow rules themselves too.

We're all aware of this, the mods themselves have stated it repeatedly. And he told why just above. Passwords were created as a way for a region to Opt-out, and this is used by almost every RP region. Mall is now trying to strip this luxury from them. It's even been stated by and admin that the way its supposed it to work is how it does, and Mall is breaking that.

So, yeah. people are pissed.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

How exactly? Isn't he just using same possibilities that are granted for ALL players? And If you've not yet realized, ALL Moderators are nations in This Game, They are players just like anyone else and they must follow rules themselves too.

That doesn't mean you need to have US, the unwilling, to play R/D.

I don't raid nor defend, nor do I roleplay, but this whole "raiding is more important than X because of game mechanics" is absurd.

[Keyboard Warriors]

This whole debacle is about a gameplayer trying to change how the game works. I think I can speak for most if not all roleplayers, generalites and whatever other groups when I say the system currently works perfectly. Now a moderator has put forward a serious change which would probably drive away much of the roleplaying group and that is why there are people completely opposed, not to mention disgusted.

How exactly? Isn't he just using same possibilities that are granted for ALL players? And If you've not yet realized, ALL Moderators are nations in This Game, They are players just like anyone else and they must follow rules themselves too.

It's been stated by violet that regions can protect themselves from the raiding game by using a password. This is part of the reason why many if not all RP regions and other regions who wish to take no part in the R/D game will have a password. If this sets a precedent, it means using a password is no longer protection.

[New Babylonia]

Yep.

Except no. Nothing this player is doing (IMO it should be largely irrelevant that he's a mod until he starts abusing mod powers) is changing how the game works. The game is working precisely as intended. However, there will always be those who use tools and functions of a game in ways that could be construed as abuse or unsportsmanlike behaviour. If anything, that's all this player is doing. He's not changing the game in any way shape or form.

Should he have probably avoided doing it? Certainly. It's poor behaviour, and was always going to cause hilarious levels of drama. That's not game changing though.

But it is changing it. RP regions exempt themselves from participating in GP, and were given the ability of passwords to protect this right. Mall is now trying to strip them of it, and make said RP regions open season for raiders.

So, actually, if you would have opened your eyes, it mot certainly is changing the game for those who don't even want to play it.

[Nierr]

What part of someone using a game mechanic the way it can be used is changing how the game works?

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

[Prekonate]

Only one community on NS could not survive without coercing the other communities to play with it. That community is R/D. Trying to establish equivalency between R/D and the other, voluntary communities is very silly. Not surprisingly, only the raiders themselves bother doing so.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

If the proposal passes, it would change that. Founderless, password protected regions are even more at risk here.

[Cata Larga]

Let me ask you all one thing. Just one thing.

Where, explicitly, does it say, officially, that NationStates is a game of raiding and defending first and foremost?

Stuff like this, unfortunately, suggests that is indeed exactly how the admin sees it:

Well, yes. If defenders all vanished tomorrow, and invaders roamed the world as they please, I would think we should balance that. I wouldn't run out and start coding, because, as you know, we tend to go years between major gameplay changes. But over the long run, I am focused on the practice of the invasion game; i.e. how often it actually happens and how often it's defeated. I'm not an invader or defender; I'll never understand exactly how easy or difficult certain things are as well as you guys do. I only observe how frequently things are happening. And my mandate is to ensure there is a reasonably active invasion game.

And the problem comes from a fundamentally skewed view of the game (the folly of which this thread demonstrates):

That's undoubtedly true, but there's a third group between the two, holding the majority of our players. Those people either have no opinion about the invasion game, are mildly in favor or against it, or don't think they like it until they find themselves in it, then quite enjoy it.

I have no interest in forcing people in Group 2 to play the invasion game. My ideal situation is one in which Group 1 has a fun invasion game, Group 2 is immune to it, and everybody else is somewhere in the middle.

Working from first principles like this, which have been raised many times long before even these posts, there is just a basic refusal to acknowledge the incompatibility of a style of play that rests on having the rest of the game be unwilling victims with the desire of those majority of players just to be left alone.

That is unfortunate. But I would like to say that when I first signed up for this game, I saw nothing to suggest that it was focused on this sort of raider-defender play.

[Nierr]

Except no. Nothing this player is doing (IMO it should be largely irrelevant that he's a mod until he starts abusing mod powers) is changing how the game works. The game is working precisely as intended. However, there will always be those who use tools and functions of a game in ways that could be construed as abuse or unsportsmanlike behaviour. If anything, that's all this player is doing. He's not changing the game in any way shape or form.

Should he have probably avoided doing it? Certainly. It's poor behaviour, and was always going to cause hilarious levels of drama. That's not game changing though.

But it is changing it. RP regions exempt themselves from participating in GP, and were given the ability of passwords to protect this right. Mall is now trying to strip them of it, and make said RP regions open season for raiders.

So, actually, if you would have opened your eyes, it mot certainly is changing the game for those who don't even want to play it.

Good lord. The Liberation function has been around for years now. If you didn't know about it, then that's your fault. It's been a part of the way the game is played since 2010 at least.

It's not changing the game. It's Mall using the function as it's been used in the past. Those arguing that it's changing the game or that passing Liberate Haven (which won't pass, I've already guaranteed that) aren't helping their own arguments.

[Nierr]

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

If the proposal passes, it would change that. Founderless, password protected regions are even more at risk here.

Already happened.

[Coraxion]

So called raiding is democratic method select new delegate. A Most endorsed WA-nation in a region will be elected to Delegacy. Then supporters and New Delegate decide what to do with new Delegate position and with powers that position gives over the region.

Opt out is of course possible. Non-Executive Delegate.

The Essense of Political simulation of NationStates.

[New Babylonia]

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

But then it brings to question, knowing it would not pass, and knowing the shitstorm it would cause, why would anyone in their right, especially a mod, even try to bring this up again?

<br abp="800">But it is changing it. RP regions exempt themselves from participating in GP, and were given the ability of passwords to protect this right. Mall is now trying to strip them of it, and make said RP regions open season for raiders.<br abp="801"><br abp="802">So, actually, if you would have opened your eyes, it mot certainly is changing the game for those who don't even want to play it.

<br abp="803">Good lord. The Liberation function has been around for years now. If you didn't know about it, then that's your fault. It's been a part of the way the game is played since 2010 at least.<br abp="804"><br abp="805">It's not changing the game. It's Mall using the function as it's been used in the past. Those arguing that it's changing the game or that passing Liberate Haven (which won't pass, I've already guaranteed that) aren't helping their own arguments.

I'm aware. You aren't understanding. He's trying to use it to strip away the immunity unwilling regions were granted to not participate in GP. That is NOT what the liberate resolution was for, and if you think so, then you need to a good look at some of the people who've quoted [violet] here. It was intended to be used by R/D, against R/D, not against RP regions who want nothing to do with any of it.

[New Babylonia]

So called raiding is democratic method select new delegate. A Most endorsed WA-nation in a region will be elected to Delegacy. Then supporters and New Delegate decide what to do with new Delegate position and with powers that position gives over the region.

Opt out is of course possible. Non-Executive Delegate.

The Essense of Political simulation of NationStates.

When they don't have a founder, non-exec delegate is not an option.

[Esternial]

Yep.

Except no. Nothing this player is doing (IMO it should be largely irrelevant that he's a mod until he starts abusing mod powers) is changing how the game works. The game is working precisely as intended. However, there will always be those who use tools and functions of a game in ways that could be construed as abuse or unsportsmanlike behaviour. If anything, that's all this player is doing. He's not changing the game in any way shape or form.

Should he have probably avoided doing it? Certainly. It's poor behaviour, and was always going to cause hilarious levels of drama. That's not game changing though.

Indeed. If it were a regular player then it probably would have been downvoted without further drama, but Mall is a moderator, and that comes with a certain degree of responsibility and standing.

You can't just go do what you do as a regular player anymore when you're a Mod. Well, you can, but there are consequences to your actions.

When you accept the title of Mod you accept being subjected to more scrutiny. Some of the things said are perhaps very much over the top, but the thread and initial concern in itself is perfectly justified when it's a Mod doing it, because Mods are supposed to be an example.

And if your example engages in unsportsmanlike behaviour, it condones further similar behaviour. That's why I feel Mall should take some responsibility for his actions and clear the air.

[Keyboard Warriors]

Because we have long been told to use passwords to opt out of the raiding game and now it seems we no longer have that protection.

You do have that protection.

You know how many regions have been targeted for Liberations to open them up to raiding? Ever? 2. Only one of them ever passed and that was against Nazi Europe. The level of opposition from gameplayers against this current proposal is enough to ensure it won't pass, even ignoring the considerable outcry from the RP community.

The process of getting a liberation passed is so arduous that any non-kosher Liberation is very unlikely to ever pass.

I know it won't pass, that's a certainty, not that it somehow makes the proposal better.

It's not changing the game. It's Mall using the function as it's been used in the past. Those arguing that it's changing the game or that passing Liberate Haven (which won't pass, I've already guaranteed that) aren't helping their own arguments.

Nazi Europe wasn't a roleplaying region. The previous attempt at Haven didn't pass. So yeah, you could argue that what Mallorea and Riva is doing is pretty uncharted territory for the Liberation tool and if it did pass, it would certainly change the game. All you've said so far is "it won't change the game" which has been contradictory to your claims of it only ever being passed once before and that being a non-roleplaying region.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If the proposal passes, it would change that. Founderless, password protected regions are even more at risk here.

Already happened.

I don't think that resolution protects the founderless regions that are password protected. If it did, I doubt this proposal Mallorea made would've caused the reaction it has. It seems Mall's proposal would strip away the protection and leave these regions open to raiders. Regions that, since they're password protected, have opt out of the R/D dynamic.