Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Nephmir]

RP players getting dragged in to GP is completely fair. IRL, militaries attacking a country's citizens drags the civilians unwillingly into combat. It's the job of Defenders to stop and protect the citizens, just like the militaries oppose each other. And this is supposed to be a simulation, is it not?

Yes, I am referring to the RPers as civilians in this conflict.

Quite honestly, I don't even know why this is a discussion. RPers can protect themselves just like anyone else, with a founder and/or a password, and even have aid from GP groups nice enough to help (Defenders).

I think that regions should have a guide to refounding, or perhaps a video, available through a link in the Regional Controls. The process should be explained to regions that don't understand Military Gameplay. This is the best thing I can think of, and if this can't happen, it'd probably be best to just leave it as it is.

In the future, I recommend that mods post such proposals through puppets before submitting. This was funny at first, but now it's just getting ridiculous.

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy.

False. I put a lot of effort into my military, non-RP region as well, designing dispatches, creating diplomacy, waging battle, keeping morale high, managing the forces, etc.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

So, it's still our responsibility to make sure raiders don't drag us into their game. Is it really too much to ask that raiders simply don't involve us in their game, because it would be a kindof uncool thing to do? Kinda like punching someone in the dick while he's asleep.

Asking people not to be dicks on the internet? I think we'd achieve peace in the Middle East before you could get people to stop being dicks on the internet.

Sounds to me like any solution to RP regions opting out is going to need the admins and a technical solution, not the mods. There's horror stories floating around about the last time mods were put into the middle of regulating gameplay, small surprise that they're gunshy about trying to regulate some insanely subjective stuff in there all over again.

[Mini Miehm]

RP players getting dragged in to GP is completely fair. IRL, militaries attacking a country's citizens drags the civilians unwillingly into combat. It's the job of Defenders to stop and protect the citizens, just like the militaries oppose each other. And this is supposed to be a simulation, is it not?

Yes, I am referring to the RPers as civilians in this conflict.

Quite honestly, I don't even know why this is a discussion. RPers can protect themselves just like anyone else, with a founder and/or a password, and even have aid from GP groups nice enough to help (Defenders).

I think that regions should have a guide to refounding, or perhaps a video, available through a link in the Regional Controls. The process should be explained to regions that don't understand Military Gameplay. This is the best thing I can think of, and if this can't happen, it'd probably be best to just leave it as it is.

In the future, I recommend that mods post such proposals through puppets before submitting. This was funny at first, but now it's just getting ridiculous.

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy.

False. I put a lot of effort into my military, non-RP region as well, designing dispatches, creating diplomacy, waging battle, keeping morale high, managing the forces, etc.

This is not an IRL war. This is people being vandals for the fun of it. We are not obligated to play your petty little raiding game. Do not attempt to force us. We don't force you to RP, do we? Extend us the same courtesy.

[Feazanthia]

The current systems are not sufficient. The Roleplay boards have been around for as long as R/D gameplay, if not longer. There are no means for the Roleplay camp to impose its gameplay upon the R/D camp, but as we can see there is ample opportunity for the R/D camp to impose its gameplay on the Roleplay camp.

Now, for some RPers, Region means little. But there are many others, particularly in the MT (Modern Tech, for those of you who are not RPers) setting, for which their Region is part of their identity. One's region can have far reaching IC (in-character) effects. Regions are almost like characters in and of themselves, and many of them represent a great deal of work as others have noted. Simply using the old safeguards will no longer be sufficient, not after tonight's shenanigans. Raiders have seen that Roleplay regions are not only targets, but ones who will get their jimmies rustled, so to speak. You cannot hope to tell me that pissing people off is not part of at least some Raiders' thrill.

Personally, I think greater moderation of Liberation proposals, coupled with some manner of designating a Roleplay region as such and thus exempt from the R/D game, would be appropriate. The question is, how to keep the R/D camp from utilizing and abusing such safeguards in order to secure themselves from counter-raids.

[Voltrovia]

Duly added.

This is, actually, part of the underlying issue.

To R/D folks, this is a storm in a teacup. Just another region to invade or defend. No big deal.

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy. A region to the RP community, especially one such as Haven, is not a teacup. Sure, it might not be as active as it was, and I grant that persons seeking to participate in the R/D game should not 'hide', as it were... but that doesn't give raiders carte blanche to strip the RP community's protections away so they can run roughshod over what has been built. It's not dissimilar to seeking permission to trample over someone's sandcastle.

EDIT (for spelling - I'm a stickler)

The issue of what happens to Haven also throws open the possibility of every single sandcastle on the beach being trampled on by the same measure. The problem is that what you accurately describe as a storm in a teacup to Gameplay is something which jeopardises the foundations of the RP community (after all, on the whole most of us don't want to do R/D, and vice-versa).

[Grand Russian Federation]

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy.

False. I put a lot of effort into my military, non-RP region as well, designing dispatches, creating diplomacy, waging battle, keeping morale high, managing the forces, etc.

You know you aren't the only person on NS, right? There are many other people who RP here.

[Nephmir]

False. I put a lot of effort into my military, non-RP region as well, designing dispatches, creating diplomacy, waging battle, keeping morale high, managing the forces, etc.

You know you aren't the only person on NS, right? There are many other people who RP here.

I think you've missed the point.

[Lyras]

RP players getting dragged in to GP is completely fair. IRL, militaries attacking a country's citizens drags the civilians unwillingly into combat. It's the job of Defenders to stop and protect the citizens, just like the militaries oppose each other. And this is supposed to be a simulation, is it not?

Yes, I am referring to the RPers as civilians in this conflict.

Quite honestly, I don't even know why this is a discussion. RPers can protect themselves just like anyone else, with a founder and/or a password, and even have aid from GP groups nice enough to help (Defenders).

I think that regions should have a guide to refounding, or perhaps a video, available through a link in the Regional Controls. The process should be explained to regions that don't understand Military Gameplay. This is the best thing I can think of, and if this can't happen, it'd probably be best to just leave it as it is.

In the future, I recommend that mods post such proposals through puppets before submitting. This was funny at first, but now it's just getting ridiculous.

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy.

False. I put a lot of effort into my military, non-RP region as well, designing dispatches, creating diplomacy, waging battle, keeping morale high, managing the forces, etc.

Ok. I accept the point.

But please leave me out of your game/conflict. I want no part of it. Why is this problematic?
This is the central issue.

[Ainin]

RP players getting dragged in to GP is completely fair. IRL, militaries attacking a country's citizens drags the civilians unwillingly into combat. It's the job of Defenders to stop and protect the citizens, just like the militaries oppose each other. And this is supposed to be a simulation, is it not?

Yes, because how this is how war works IRL. When India went to war with Pakistan, it sent West Bengal and Punjab to try to steal Pakistan's UN seat. Comparing raiding to war is an extraordinarily poor analogy. War doesn't work this way, so why does the "unwillingly drag civvies into combat" analogy apply here?

[Avenio]

Organize and re-found the region. Maybe lobby in Technical about some of those proposed ideas for passing down foundership and stuff. Haven's a bitty little thing. I'm sure there's defenders or other RPers aplenty to help with a successful refound.

After the current tempest in a teacup passes and Gameplay's collective gaze turns away from Haven, anyway.

So, it's still our responsibility to make sure raiders don't drag us into their game. Is it really too much to ask that raiders simply don't involve us in their game, because it would be a kindof uncool thing to do? Kinda like punching someone in the dick while he's asleep.

Yeah. I mean, raiding is pretty much legitimized harassment. Come up with all the euphemisms and apologia you like, that doesn't really change what it is, fundamentally. It's been legitimized because it's one half of a 'game' that evolved out of the website's political simulation and social mechanics, and the admins have given it their blessing and manifest protection in ways that a lot of other fields wouldn't get normally. The game wouldn't, fundamentally, work without a lack of consent. And that's not going to change - the admins and mods have made that abundantly clear.

The issue here, in my mind, is that the 'gameplay' side of things is not the only 'game', so to speak. The forums here have over 50 000 members (some active, some not), and communities of RP'ers and WA legislators and any number of other sub-groups populate the game, in addition to any number of off-site forums, IRC channels and what have you. None of these communities get the same latitude as the 'gameplay' side of things when it comes to consent. If people in II were to start demanding other peoples' passwords after winning a war and demanding other people participate in RP's, the mods would come crashing down on them. There wouldn't be a chance for an II version of 'raiding' to evolve because moderation would never let it evolve.

That, of course, is the problem - 'gameplay' is always going to have that special latitude that other communities don't and will never have. It needs to, or it would cease to exist. Forum-based RP's and discussions and what have you are much less resource-intensive that way. And for the most part it looks like that status quo has been stable over NS's history, if not entirely happy. The problem now is that the situation isn't just one community working through its problems (a la the 'defender' v. 'raider' shtick), it's one community purposefully picking on one another, and due to the mechanics of the situation one side is hog-tied to the ground and prevented from doing anything to retaliate on their own terms.

Thus, we're not asking for the 'gameplay' aspect of the site to be dismantled. Irrespective of the ethics of the situation, most of us know that the sacred cow of gameplay is never going to be sacrificed, realistically-speaking. What we're asking for is a way to avoid conflicts like this in the first place by enforcing a separation of the 'games' and keeping the communities of NS from obliterating one another. Things like moderator-designated gameplay-proof RP regions would be a good start, but I think the moderators in general need to do a lot more communicating with and between the communities than they have in the past, lest things like the last few iterations of 'Liberate Haven' start to become more commonplace and civility breaks down.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

Things like moderator-designated gameplay-proof RP regions would be a good start, but I think the moderators in general need to do a lot more communicating with and between the communities than they have in the past

Oh sure, let's ask the mods to say which regions are legal and illegal to raid. That would end swimmingly. Might not be a bad basis for a technical fix though. But keep the mods out of it.

[Feazanthia]

Thus, we're not asking for the 'gameplay' aspect of the site to be dismantled. Irrespective of the ethics of the situation, most of us know that the sacred cow of gameplay is never going to be sacrificed, realistically-speaking. What we're asking for is a way to avoid conflicts like this in the first place by enforcing a separation of the 'games' and keeping the communities of NS from obliterating one another. Things like moderator-designated gameplay-proof RP regions would be a good start, but I think the moderators in general need to do a lot more communicating with and between the communities than they have in the past, lest things like the last few iterations of 'Liberate Haven' start to become more commonplace and civility breaks down.

I must agree with this. There is no small sentiment that we, the roleplayers, are being brushed off and told to mind our place. You may not feel that's what's happening, but that's how we feel. I'm watching it happen on IRC right now. People are angry. Very angry. And not just players, either. The fact that the Mentors - the people the Mod Team entrusted with guiding the Roleplay community - are being this vocal should say something. We feel ignored, and nothing said by the Mod Team thus far has assuaged that one bit.

There needs to be better communication, in addition to some sort of barrier between R/D and RP, in order to keep these things from happening.

[Rephesus]

Nervun, could you weigh in on the possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region, or the possibility of a mod ruling protecting us from unwanted involvement in the R/D metagame? It would be useful to have an idea what sort of evidence we need to show, or what sort of burden of proof we are laboring under to show that this attempt is in fact an undue level of harassment on the gaming community, and one that warrants a concrete ruling.

I honestly don't know. What I am hoping for, per [violet] is that players can come up with some ideas for this.

Last time we were told by moderation that the answer to this was passwords. As we now see a Moderator is abusing the Liberation function to take the only thing standing between RPing regions and being another hovel for Raider Vandalism, away- the Password.

[Nephmir]

RP players getting dragged in to GP is completely fair. IRL, militaries attacking a country's citizens drags the civilians unwillingly into combat. It's the job of Defenders to stop and protect the citizens, just like the militaries oppose each other. And this is supposed to be a simulation, is it not?

Yes, because how this is how war works IRL. When India went to war with Pakistan, it sent West Bengal and Punjab to try to steal Pakistan's UN seat. Comparing raiding to war is an extraordinarily poor analogy. War doesn't work this way, so why does the "unwillingly drag civvies into combat" analogy apply here?

If you knew how to raid or defend and were involved in GP, you'd know the answer to that.

[Pollona]

This issue has obviously been kicking around for a long time, and as a major result is a huge sticking point between the Gameplay community and the R/D community, both of which I would argue operate on diametrically opposing axes. The Gameplay community operates in its own separate mini bubble, where the emphasis focuses on developing the nation itself and the story surrounding it. Naturally, this co-opts other people in forums like II and often, on off sight forums. To be frank, most people in the Gameplay community could care less about the mechanics of NS or the Raiding feature; unless it is intentionally turned on their communities and RPing regions. Most prefer to shutter the gates and want to be left alone to concentrate on what they do best. I have known a few to raid, but most have only done it once as a gag or joke, and then proceed to turn right back to their wiki's, forum posts, or IRC chatrooms and move on to something 'far more interesting'.

R/D communities are much more direct and do rely exclusively on the game mechanics themselves to function, which is fairly obvious. There is a bit of inbuilt rivalry and/or cooperation between regions (unlike Gameplay, which requires heavy interpersonal activity) and, of course, the joy of actually going on a raid against an opposing foe. Each R/D region has it's own community just like Gameplay, but it is geared for R/D and R/D alone, most activity revolves around it. Some do indeed develop a bit of a fantasy world or government or what have you in their raiding community. I've lived in both kinds of regions, and I've loved people in both. I just preferred Gameplay.

Having said that the current policy of forcing Gameplay regions to join in on the merry fun of R/D will, in the long run, result in far more harm than good. People in Gameplay have been known to quit NS all together when it appeared as though the wider community sought to back them into a corner, hence their uneasiness towards the Moderating staff. It would be an enormous sign of goodwill from the Administration on the whole if a responsible proposal was drafted that addressed their concerns. On the same token, this raises the question of how any opt out will affect R/D, possibly lead to cheating in R/D and allegations of "making adjustments" only for vocal minority.

I guess the simplest thing I could think of would be a proposal for each region to have an option to participate in raiding (or alternatively, 'opt out'), that is either controlled by the founder or by some other process. However, only allow a modification of this option...say, every few months? The modification would be irrespective of who controls the region at a certain time, it would be on a fixed time schedule and nothing more. I'm not fully aware of how plausible that is for tech, but surely this idea has been brought up before.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

the only thing standing between RPing regions and being another hovel for Raider Vandalism, away- the Password.

Founders founders founders founders founders founders founders founders and so on and so forth. Though it would certainly help if the admin got around to some of those proposals for founder-elects or successors so that it'd be easier for a roleplay region to maintain a living founder nation. Or some hardcoded thingy so that RP regions are cordoned off from gameplay without lugging the mods into the middle of it.

[Ainin]

Yes, because how this is how war works IRL. When India went to war with Pakistan, it sent West Bengal and Punjab to try to steal Pakistan's UN seat. Comparing raiding to war is an extraordinarily poor analogy. War doesn't work this way, so why does the "unwillingly drag civvies into combat" analogy apply here?

If you knew how to raid or defend and were involved in GP, you'd know the answer to that.

And what tells you I don't?

Stop dodging the question. Why the double standard on your analogy?

[Avenio]

Things like moderator-designated gameplay-proof RP regions would be a good start, but I think the moderators in general need to do a lot more communicating with and between the communities than they have in the past

Oh sure, let's ask the mods to say which regions are legal and illegal to raid. That would end swimmingly. Might not be a bad basis for a technical fix though. But keep the mods out of it.

Having the mods involved means that the process would be transparent. I can see it being like the designated 'school' regions - a given region applies for 'RP region' status, the mods review the case by looking at IP addresses or what have you to ensure that the region would be used in good faith, and the status would either get approved or denied. Nations within the region would, say, get tagged with an "RP'er" label (like the 'WA Member' label now) and would be unable to move to any other region that didn't have approved 'RP region' status in order to prevent abuse by gameplayers. If the RP'ers wanted to change regions or create a new one, all they'd have to do is create a new puppet to found a new region, apply for 'RP region' status and move their accounts to it from the old region, letting it cease to exist.

[Rephesus]

the only thing standing between RPing regions and being another hovel for Raider Vandalism, away- the Password.

Founders founders founders founders founders founders founders founders and so on and so forth. Though it would certainly help if the admin got around to some of those proposals for founder-elects or successors so that it'd be easier for a roleplay region to maintain a living founder nation. Or some hardcoded thingy so that RP regions are cordoned off from gameplay without lugging the mods into the middle of it.

Yes but as pointed out before those functions don't currently exist. Until they do a Password is the only thing that a Founderless or Inactive-Founder region has, and Mall is trying to take that away.

[Rethan]

the only thing standing between RPing regions and being another hovel for Raider Vandalism, away- the Password.

Founders founders founders founders founders founders founders founders and so on and so forth. Though it would certainly help if the admin got around to some of those proposals for founder-elects or successors so that it'd be easier for a roleplay region to maintain a living founder nation.

And until they do such a thing, copypasting "founders" over and over is not a decent enough argument. People move on, get new jobs, or die. The survival and happiness of a region should not be dependent on a single individual's playing the game. All it then takes is one accident, a decision to quit NS, or perhaps a newborn child and that region is exposed. So long as there is no succession, "founders" alone is not a suitable form of protection. So perhaps you should give your "Ctrl" and "V" keys a rest for the moment.

Unless you typed founders out that many times manually, in which case...I suppose I admire your determination.

[The Dark Star Republic]

I guess the simplest thing I could think of would be a proposal for each region to have an option to participate in raiding (or alternatively, 'opt out'), that is either controlled by the founder or by some other process.

That doesn't seem very likely:

This thread is over 50 pages now, and anything productive that was going to come out of it would've done so now. If you're hoping for a hard "opt-out" from being invaded, that's not going to happen. Founders and passwords already exist, and additional changes (Regional Officers and Security Council Custodian proposals) are going to be implemented to allow regions to better manage their security.

That entire thread is a succession of pleas to divorce roleplayers from gameplay being hammered down. There was an acceptable compromise, in passwords, that the Security Council forever broke, and it does not seem that any suggestion to restore such a compromise will ever be considered.

[Nephmir]

I guess the simplest thing I could think of would be a proposal for each region to have an option to participate in raiding (or alternatively, 'opt out'), that is either controlled by the founder or by some other process.

That doesn't seem very likely:

This thread is over 50 pages now, and anything productive that was going to come out of it would've done so now. If you're hoping for a hard "opt-out" from being invaded, that's not going to happen. Founders and passwords already exist, and additional changes (Regional Officers and Security Council Custodian proposals) are going to be implemented to allow regions to better manage their security.

That entire thread is a succession of pleas to divorce roleplayers from gameplay being hammered down. There was an acceptable compromise, in passwords, that the Security Council forever broke, and it does not seem that any suggestion to restore such a compromise will ever be considered.

I don't need the security council to get access to half of the passwords in NS regions. Most Raiders don't. Plus, the Defenders control the SC, which is why everyone is so opposed to this Raider draft. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

Unless you typed founders out that many times manually, in which case...I suppose I admire your determination.

I type fast.

Seriously though, I don't think the mods are going to want to put themselves into the middle of it barring a technical solution. A better use of everybody's time and righteous fury would be to lobby the admin to code this stuff to give everybody a hardcoded fix instead of try to pressure the mods to try and juryrig an ineffective and easily-abused patch on the problem.

[The Dark Star Republic]

I don't need the security council to get access to half of the passwords in NS regions. Most Raiders don't. Plus, the Defenders control the SC, which is why everyone is so opposed to this Raider draft. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Don't really give a shit. All I'm doing is quoting a moderator who is explicitly saying that the suggestions for "opt-outs" being mooted here over and over again will never happen. Of course, I'd be delighted if they changed their minds on that, but as there's been no indication they will do so, repeatedly clamouring for "a technical fix" just seems a waste of time.

[Mini Miehm]

Unless you typed founders out that many times manually, in which case...I suppose I admire your determination.

I type fast.

Seriously though, I don't think the mods are going to want to put themselves into the middle of it barring a technical solution. A better use of everybody's time and righteous fury would be to lobby the admin to code this stuff to give everybody a hardcoded fix instead of try to pressure the mods to try and juryrig an ineffective and easily-abused patch on the problem.

Well let's get an ineffective patch, until the code can be written.