Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Mini Miehm]

Mod edit: This thread, which technically this probably should be in Technical, is the current discussion based more on Moderation's views of the topic and thus I believe that it should be placed here. Please note that I have merged in a few different threads and posts to try and keep Mall's specific actions in the Security Council and how they relate to his status as a Moderator and an overarching debate about if one section of the game can force itself on another second/plus Moderations views on that, separate.

Please try to maintain that wall. -NERV

Link to the complaints thread for Mallorea and Riva, which I think needs to be added to the OP, so that the two topics no longer become confused.

I'm not suggesting that the simple act of submitting a proposal is a troll or necessarily a continuance. I don't really expect the moderation team to step in at this point, there simply isn't any history of the moderation team doing so, so I guess that is understandable. However, with all due respect, Haven has had a checkered past with moderation and the Security Council and its always ended with serious problems that moderators have had to step in and solve.

Now not only is it happening again, a member of the moderation team is the one stirring the pot! And on top of that that mod is trying to blame the target region for HIS actions. Surely this requires some sort of consideration.

Again, thanks for the responses.

As Reppy posted elsewhere, said Mod is acting as a player. We have no evidence that Mall has abused his position as a Mod when submitting this. He's so clean he squeaks.

As a player, in a political game, and in a section of the game that is meant to simulate international politics (Think of the real world Security Council in the Organization-That-Cannot-Be-Named and the shenanigans that it gets up to), he is perfectly inline with that.

RPers can counter with their own facts and statements.

A bit late to the party, but I would counter that this does constitute trolling, on the grounds that a player is specifically targeting a group that is both the least able to defend itself, and doing it in a manner explicitly designed to rile that group up. I should not be forced to involve myself in a portion of the game that I find not only dull as watching paint dry, but as moronic as juggling live nuclear weapons, just to preserve the portions of the game I do enjoy. I have opted out of this R/D stupidity. Do not permit another player to harass me by possibly destroying my region for his own amusement when I lack the means to defend myself. That is what this amounts to. Harassment by a member of the raiding "community", if you can describe a pack of trolls interested only in shattering the works of other as a community, targeted against the entirety of the roleplaying community. Yes, the target at this point is Haven. I used to be a resident of Haven. I am no longer, simply because my friends are no longer there. Allowing this sort of harassment to go forward sets a terrifying precedent, namely that roleplayers MUST participate in this gameplay shennanigans, or risk the destruction of their regions at the hands of a pack of petulant children who delight in their vandalism and harassment.

Gameplay and roleplay segregation has long been held as an unofficial status between groups. This proposal seeks to end this peaceful co-existence, and do it by willfully destroying anyone who doesn't play their game. If this is allowed to proceed, the consequences will be far reaching, and long lasting. We aren't gameplayers, and we have no desire to be. I ask that you not force us to play someone elses game, simply so that we can continue to play our own.

[Kylarnatia]

I must respectfully disagree; the mechanics of the game are such that regions have passwords, as much to protect them from raiding as it is to 'opt out' of that aspect of gameplay, since defending and raiding by definition is an auxiliary form of gameplay not originally conceptualized in the development of the forums, per numerous admonitions in the past. Hence, by arguing from an in-character / gameplay context to fundamentally change the mechanics of the game, for the stated purpose of retribution on a region for activities that aren't even clearly specified or proven, he's demonstrating undue bias in a fashion that changes the game's paradigm. If this draft goes through, it fundamentally defeats the very mechanism of passwords, because there would no longer be any distinction between occupied regions and 'we want to discuss our favorite TV Show!' regions. I would consider that a fundamental abuse of authority, considering said moderator, for personal reasons, is trying to alter the physical game mechanics to achieve an in-game purpose.

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

Yet I thought the express purpose of that tool was to remove passwords from regions that had been raided and the invaders were therefore barring the likely expelled natives from? This proposal is trying to remove a password from a region which wishes to be left to it's own devices, and is using the password to symbolise that wish, as [violet] herself has said is a viable means of doing so.

Is it not clear why many roleplayers therefore are so distressed by this affair? This isn't politics anymore, it's just pure fire-starting.

[Blazedtown]

I must respectfully disagree; the mechanics of the game are such that regions have passwords, as much to protect them from raiding as it is to 'opt out' of that aspect of gameplay, since defending and raiding by definition is an auxiliary form of gameplay not originally conceptualized in the development of the forums, per numerous admonitions in the past. Hence, by arguing from an in-character / gameplay context to fundamentally change the mechanics of the game, for the stated purpose of retribution on a region for activities that aren't even clearly specified or proven, he's demonstrating undue bias in a fashion that changes the game's paradigm. If this draft goes through, it fundamentally defeats the very mechanism of passwords, because there would no longer be any distinction between occupied regions and 'we want to discuss our favorite TV Show!' regions. I would consider that a fundamental abuse of authority, considering said moderator, for personal reasons, is trying to alter the physical game mechanics to achieve an in-game purpose.

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

So let me get this straight, you are saying that a region can be forced to participate in a part of the game they don't want to, and to sum it up, your answer is tough shit? How is that different than a player posting a thread where they wipe out the other country, without the player's participation and the official moderation answer is tough shit. No offense, but that's a bit fucked if you ask me.

[Feazanthia]

To all whom it may concern,

If you are unaware, there is currently an active security council proposal to liberate the region of Haven. If this proposal were to pass, it would result in Haven losing its password protection, and thus being open to being ‘invaded’ in the raider/defender game. Indeed, this is the stated purpose of the proposal. However, we believe that the passage of such a proposal would have further implications for the Roleplay community, and these must be taken into account by the Moderation staff.

Disappointed that many regions have taken to cowering behind passwords for protection for long durations rather than acting to strengthen themselves,

Confident that a number of raiding organizations could utilize the region for far more interesting things than the current residents are choosing to,

As you can see, there is no smokescreen at work. This is an active attempt to force roleplay regions to partake in the raider/defender game against their will. It is a continuation of the stated belief that gameplay should take precedence over roleplay on NationStates. The statements made by Mallorea and Riva heavily imply that all nations should be subject to the raider defender game, regardless of whether or not they wish to be a part of it. Furthermore, this move to involuntarily strip a region (which has, mind you, expressly stated its intent to remain independent of the Raider/Defender metagame) of its password protection has, by Mallorea and Riva’s own admission, been undertaken purely on the basis of assumptions and without providing any concrete proof; let alone addressing the belief of many that even if such proof existed, it would not justify this action.

Despite the repeated statements by moderation that he is “just another player”, people will see Mallorea and Riva as a Moderator and his views as representative of those of the Moderation team; it has happened repeatedly throughout the thread in question already.

We would like to stress that Mallorea and Riva is going against not only official policy, but the express wishes of the Site Admin ([violet]) and the designed intent of the Liberation gameplay feature (Source). It is the opinion of those Mentors undersigned, as well as many within and without the Roleplaying community, that this singling out of one specific aspect of the NationStates community is irresponsible, reckless, and unbecoming of one who was trusted with this site’s guidance and safekeeping. Additionally, this act has served to further the perceived gap between the interests of the Roleplay community and those of the official NationStates moderation staff. This can only serve to increase animosity between player and Moderator.

We, the Mentor team, were charged with being the pillars of and guiding the Roleplay community. We were appointed with the task of giving them a sympathetic ear and a helping hand, but now we find that we must also serve as their voice. In response to this event, we have decided to take a united and unmoving stance. Though we wish to continue the spirit of cooperation with the Moderation staff, we find we cannot stay silent in this matter. We want the NationStates community to be a cooperative and fun place to be, for everyone, but this means not forcing one viewpoint or system of gameplay upon the entire community. We have grown too large and too diverse for such an option to be viable, and the Moderators involved in this incident must take note of this fact.

It is the opinion of the Mentor team that the Moderation staff must take note of the Roleplay community’s vocal and numerous concerns with this abuse of position, whether they feel it be real or perceived. The Roleplay community, by and large, wants no part of the Raider/Defender game. Our region passwords exist for this reason. This situation must remain unchanged for the good of the site.

Thank you.

Signed,

- Kylarnatia
- Feazanthia
- Lubyak
- Maltropia
- Oseato
- Virana
- Lyras

Edit: Additional name

[Mini Miehm]

I think my position is pretty clear in the OP. Forcing roleplayers to participate in the R/D metagame at the threat of destroying their regions if they choose not to is plainly harassment. Mall went into the thread knowing the problems his proposal would create, and sought that strife eagerly. His sole desire was to force a group of players who have made every good faith effort to avoid becoming embroiled in gameplay shenanigans, to involve themselves in gameplay shenanigans under threat of regional dissolution.

In essence, we are roleplayers. By our very nature we opt out of the R/D game, as is our right. It is not the right of the R/D types to opt us in to their way of playing, and this proposal cannot be allowed to stand. Furthermore, there must besome written concrete protection, whether it being by the creation of explicit RP regions, with no WA incolvement, or through a written mod ruling that RP regions are off limits. This needs to end now, and it needs to be settled as plainl as possible. We should not be responsible for defending ourselves from a pack of childish bullies whose only goal is to destroy what others have created.

[Maltropia]

If this thread is about Concerns about Mallorea's Conduct as a Moderator, can you please stop dragging relevant posts out?

[NERVUN]

If this thread is about Concerns about Mallorea's Conduct as a Moderator, can you please stop dragging relevant posts out?

This thread is NOT about that.

See the above disclaimer.

[Mini Miehm]

Nervun, could you weigh in on the possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region, or the possibility of a mod ruling protecting us from unwanted involvement in the R/D metagame? It would be useful to have an idea what sort of evidence we need to show, or what sort of burden of proof we are laboring under to show that this attempt is in fact an undue level of harassment on the gaming community, and one that warrants a concrete ruling.

[Vangaziland]

I tried my hand at being a defender and I'm throwing my two cents in. The Raider/Defender game is silly and is one step above trolling. It is embarrassing that it is endorsed so highly. Who is anyone to take away a region's password and make them partake in this foolishness? I am embarrassed for the moderators and the community at large. Jumping into a region and posting that you "rode in" has nothing to do with skills or the military. It's a game of foolishness and if it's ever forced down my throat, I will protest 100 times, 100 different ways. Who is anybody to determine that so called raiders can make a better use for a region? And embarrassingly they get support? Mod status or not, it's a silly game. Please do not ruin nation states by passing that garbage..

[Feazanthia]

I'm not sure what actual actions can be taken to prevent RPers from having to engage in the R/D game, as I'm not involved in the nitty gritty nuts and bolts. I'm not even sure there should be a hard wall. Some RPers may want to raid. Some raiders may want to RP. Too many shades of gray.

But the fact of the matter is that a region which does not partake in the raiding game, which has had a long-standing regional password, and is designed to be a haven (heh) from the chaos of the R/D game should not be a viable target for a WA resolution. That goes against the very nature of the Liberate function. Perhaps a clarification to the rules of the Liberate resolution, detailing what regions can be viable targets. There would, unfortunately, likely be increased Moderator overhead in making sure these rules are adhered to.

[NERVUN]

Nervun, could you weigh in on the possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region, or the possibility of a mod ruling protecting us from unwanted involvement in the R/D metagame? It would be useful to have an idea what sort of evidence we need to show, or what sort of burden of proof we are laboring under to show that this attempt is in fact an undue level of harassment on the gaming community, and one that warrants a concrete ruling.

I honestly don't know. What I am hoping for, per [violet] is that players can come up with some ideas for this.

[Mini Miehm]

I'm not sure what actual actions can be taken to prevent RPers from having to engage in the R/D game, as I'm not involved in the nitty gritty nuts and bolts. I'm not even sure there should be a hard wall. Some RPers may want to raid. Some raiders may want to RP. Too many shades of gray.

But the fact of the matter is that a region which does not partake in the raiding game, which has had a long-standing regional password, and is designed to be a haven (heh) from the chaos of the R/D game should not be a viable target for a WA resolution. That goes against the very nature of the Liberate function. Perhaps a clarification to the rules of the Liberate resolution, detailing what regions can be viable targets. There would, unfortunately, likely be increased Moderator overhead in making sure these rules are adhered to.

I must disagree Feaz. I think a hard wall is expressly necessary for just this reason. If a roleplayer wishes to do R/D, or vice versa, they can do it outside of an RP region. RP regions should be sheltered from the silliness of the R/D metagame. If you want to have a WA puppet for raiding and defending, feel free to do so. But this entire issue has arisen because some members of Haven got involved in R/D. RP regions should not be ABLE to get involved in R/D, for the protection of all of us.

[Venico]

That goes against the very nature of the Liberate function.

Wrong, good sir. The nature of the liberate function is to peel the password off of an unattainable region. It's been acknowledged that this can and would be used by raiders and defenders alike. Liberations are used to open up a region so someone (presumably you) can seize the delegacy. THAT is its nature.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

he possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region

You mean that thing called "founders"? You know, game mechanic that's existed for somewhere in the ballpark of a decade?

[NERVUN]

Ok, as a note, I have to depart for all things Japanese. I may, or may not, check back in today and other Mods may, or may not, weigh in themselves.

But we WILL read your comments.

[Mini Miehm]

Nervun, could you weigh in on the possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region, or the possibility of a mod ruling protecting us from unwanted involvement in the R/D metagame? It would be useful to have an idea what sort of evidence we need to show, or what sort of burden of proof we are laboring under to show that this attempt is in fact an undue level of harassment on the gaming community, and one that warrants a concrete ruling.

I honestly don't know. What I am hoping for, per [violet] is that players can come up with some ideas for this.

Well, thanks for the response then. I know that my opinion is that there needs to be some way to physically segregate the two communities, so that we can't have this issue in the future. Barring that, we need a mod ruling, and a way to differentiate the RP regions from the R/D regions. I really don't know how easy a mechanical separation would be, but it would be the best solution. No WA in RP regions. Just founders and passwords, so no way to engineer a takeover.

[Mini Miehm]

he possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region

You mean that thing called "founders"? You know, game mechanic that's existed for somewhere in the ballpark of a decade?

Haven has no founder. What should they do, if you would be so kind?

[Rethan]

he possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region

You mean that thing called "founders"? You know, game mechanic that's existed for somewhere in the ballpark of a decade?

Except some regions, like the very same one that has caused this problem at least twice do not have founders, for one reason or another. Why should the entirety of an RP region be subject to the unpleasantness of being raided because one player is no longer playing the game?

[Cata Larga]

he possibility of a game mechanic protection for an RP region

You mean that thing called "founders"? You know, game mechanic that's existed for somewhere in the ballpark of a decade?

You know how founders are people?

You know how people can suddenly depart, or, sad to say, die?

Or is it their fault that they might decide to get in a car accident at an inconvenient time?

[Kylarnatia]

Link to the complaints thread for Mallorea and Riva, which I think needs to be added to the OP, so that the two topics no longer become confused.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

You mean that thing called "founders"? You know, game mechanic that's existed for somewhere in the ballpark of a decade?

Haven has no founder. What should they do, if you would be so kind?

Organize and re-found the region. Maybe lobby in Technical about some of those proposed ideas for passing down foundership and stuff. Haven's a bitty little thing. I'm sure there's defenders or other RPers aplenty to help with a successful refound.

After the current tempest in a teacup passes and Gameplay's collective gaze turns away from Haven, anyway.

[Mini Miehm]

Link to the complaints thread for Mallorea and Riva, which I think needs to be added to the OP, so that the two topics no longer become confused.

Duly added.

[Mini Miehm]

Haven has no founder. What should they do, if you would be so kind?

Organize and re-found the region. Maybe lobby in Technical about some of those proposed ideas for passing down foundership and stuff. Haven's a bitty little thing. I'm sure there's defenders or other RPers aplenty to help with a successful refound.

After the current tempest in a teacup passes and Gameplay's collective gaze turns away from Haven, anyway.

So, it's still our responsibility to make sure raiders don't drag us into their game. Is it really too much to ask that raiders simply don't involve us in their game, because it would be a kindof uncool thing to do? Kinda like punching someone in the dick while he's asleep.

[Lyras]

Link to the complaints thread for Mallorea and Riva, which I think needs to be added to the OP, so that the two topics no longer become confused.

Duly added.

This is, actually, part of the underlying issue.

To R/D folks, this is a storm in a teacup. Just another region to invade or defend. No big deal.

But to roleplayers, each region can represent years of writing time and investment of creativity and emotional energy. A region to the RP community, especially one such as Haven, is not a teacup. Sure, it might not be as active as it was, and I grant that persons seeking to participate in the R/D game should not 'hide', as it were... but that doesn't give raiders carte blanche to strip the RP community's protections away so they can run roughshod over what has been built. It's not dissimilar to seeking permission to trample over someone's sandcastle.

EDIT (for spelling - I'm a stickler)

[Oseato]

Haven has no founder. What should they do, if you would be so kind?

Organize and re-found the region. Maybe lobby in Technical about some of those proposed ideas for passing down foundership and stuff. Haven's a bitty little thing. I'm sure there's defenders or other RPers aplenty to help with a successful refound.

After the current tempest in a teacup passes and Gameplay's collective gaze turns away from Haven, anyway.

They banned the last member that tried to refound Haven, unfortunately.