Moderation staffing levels discussion

[Esternial]

It appears the years have been very kind to you. Almost disturbingly so.

He has aged rather well, hasn't he? Still as adorable as he was when we started rp'ing.

Must carry Will Smith's magical gene.

The way I see it, Mentors are more like "if you need help, you can contact these people", since regular RP'ers can always offer help themselves, and in the Traveller's Café in P2TM that happens quite often. The big difference is that Mentors are obliged to help, whereas regular players can just ignore cries for help.

I'm quite proud to see what it has become. When I first made the thread it was hardly as frequently used as it is now, and it kinda takes the pressure away from the Mentors.

For debating, mentors doesn't seem like a logical option. People just need to behave and tolerate those that aren't as adept at conveying their opinions.

Debating mentors? That sounds like a ticking flame bomb. Although, it isn't a bad idea. The only problem is that debating is just very fragile.

You might have misread. I'm not in favour of debating mentors. Debating is something you learn best from observing.

[Constaniana]

The key is finding people who meet the following three criteria (for NSG mentors):

1.) The candidate would have to have been in NSG for long enough to have developed a reputation amonst the inhabitants thereof, and get the general gist of how things go in NSG.

2.) The candidate would need to be someone who preferably hasn't had too many run-ins with moderation.

3.) The candidate needs to be able to give advice that will help the player or players involved. Gruff people can get the job done (though being nice does tend to go farther), as long as they are respectful to others who need the help/advice, and are also proactive to see where they can further help.

***

As for the P2TM mentor staff, i'd say that you might have been slightly overwhelmed with the responsibility at first. You guys got to define how mentoring works in P2TM, and made it up as you went along. From all accounts, it sounds like you've developed a fine initial cadre, and the new P2TM mentors will benefit from the knowledge and experience gained, as well the people that you mentor.

I myself had the benefit of being among others who had defined how mentoring works in II when I first became a mentor, so I had more to fall back upon. Then my natural personality kicked in, and things went from there. I'd say that the ideal mentor is a mix of three things:

1.) Personality
2.) Experience
3.) Willing to learn

If you've got the right mix of these three ingredients, you can be a terrific mentor. That's why I think that even NSG can benefit from mentors, who can assist in keeping that forum under control, just as II, GE&T, and P2TM are.

I'm a lot more pessimistic about this.

The reason certain posters in NSG are regarded as bad debaters is not because they don't know what they're doing, which is what the mentors are supposed to help out with in the roleplay forums. It's because they have either:
a) bad views which creates a large rift between them and the forums or
b) a determination to win that's so strong, they'll say anything, literally anything, if it means avoiding saying "sorry, I'm actually wrong".

I don't see how you can "mentor" people to fix this considering you can't really mentor someone out of their views, that has to be done in debate, and there's well and truly no getting through to the people in category b because they have to win.

I also cannot see how you could "mentor" someone without them thinking it's an attack on them because of their views, not the way they post.

So while I'm supportive of mentoring in the roleplay forums because I've seen the good work it's done, I'm completely opposed to it being introduced in NSG. The amount of words moderators have spent harping on things like being civil and being polite is enough to match Gone With the Wind, it's continually fallen on deaf ears.

Conclusion. NSG is NSG. Love it or leave it.

Or support Nightkill's proposal to burn it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I'm a lot more pessimistic about this.

The reason certain posters in NSG are regarded as bad debaters is not because they don't know what they're doing, which is what the mentors are supposed to help out with in the roleplay forums. It's because they have either:
a) bad views which creates a large rift between them and the forums or
b) a determination to win that's so strong, they'll say anything, literally anything, if it means avoiding saying "sorry, I'm actually wrong".

I don't see how you can "mentor" people to fix this considering you can't really mentor someone out of their views, that has to be done in debate, and there's well and truly no getting through to the people in category b because they have to win.

I also cannot see how you could "mentor" someone without them thinking it's an attack on them because of their views, not the way they post.

So while I'm supportive of mentoring in the roleplay forums because I've seen the good work it's done, I'm completely opposed to it being introduced in NSG. The amount of words moderators have spent harping on things like being civil and being polite is enough to match Gone With the Wind, it's continually fallen on deaf ears.

Conclusion. NSG is NSG. Love it or leave it.

Or support Nightkill's proposal to burn it.

And collect the insurance money. Important part of the plan is important.

[Die Erworbenen Namen]

He has aged rather well, hasn't he? Still as adorable as he was when we started rp'ing.

Must carry Will Smith's magical gene.

Debating mentors? That sounds like a ticking flame bomb. Although, it isn't a bad idea. The only problem is that debating is just very fragile.

You might have misread. I'm not in favour of debating mentors. Debating is something you learn best from observing.

I didn't misread. I agreed with you. I just simply stated that people do need help debating (me included)

[Esternial]

Must carry Will Smith's magical gene.


You might have misread. I'm not in favour of debating mentors. Debating is something you learn best from observing.

I didn't misread. I agreed with you. I just simply stated that people do need help debating (me included)

Ah, I see. Well, if there's a particular debater you're impressed by, you can observe their "rhetorical expertise" and try to emulate it.

[Constaniana]

Or support Nightkill's proposal to burn it.

And collect the insurance money. Important part of the plan is important.

Is Nightkill taking all of it, or are the Mentors going to divide it up amongst themselves?

[Die Erworbenen Namen]

I didn't misread. I agreed with you. I just simply stated that people do need help debating (me included)

Ah, I see. Well, if there's a particular debater you're impressed by, you can observe their "rhetorical expertise" and try to emulate it.

Which I would suggest to others, and I will do. Thanks.

[The Archregimancy]

He asked not to be considered a few pages back.

Everybody has their price

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

[The Blaatschapen]

Everybody has their price

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

I know, I'm just messing here a bit

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Everybody has their price

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

Even aside from that, I'd be very bad actually doing mod work. The forum would be in flames.

[Die Erworbenen Namen]

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

Even aside from that, I'd be very bad actually doing mod work. The forum would be in flames.

Quick! Ring out the fire brigade!

[Nightkill the Emperor]

And collect the insurance money. Important part of the plan is important.

Is Nightkill taking all of it, or are the Mentors going to divide it up amongst themselves?

We compete for the money in a Hunger Games.

[Esternial]

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

Even aside from that, I'd be very bad actually doing mod work. The forum would be in flames.

You would make me an administrative lackey to properly BB-code your OPs, wouldn't you? :|

[Frisbeeteria]

To anyone suggesting time-zone coverage: it's irrelevant.

What the site needs is "activity coverage", not geographic time zone locations. In aid of that, two of our moderators in the US are night workers, and they have active access to the site when work is slow. Others of us have irregular sleep patterns, and may be equally active in the middle of the (local) day or (local) night. There is no official division of labor or assignment of work hours. We're on when we're on, and for the most part coverage is pretty good during most time periods.

The highest level of recent individual mod activity came from Sedge and I when we were unemployed. We were bored and capable of spending 8 or more active hours on the site. That's a helluva lot of coverage, particularly since we overlapped. Not surprisingly, such levels of activity are unsustainable and lead to burnout, which is why I've stepped back quite a bit. I do continue to monitor modlogs for activity, and the rest of the team has more than stepped up to fill in the gaps.

Moderation is least active during US overnights (~3AM-8AM EST), which happily coincides with the lowest levels of forum posting. The only real issue with that time slot is the prevalence of Asian adbot postings during that time, and they're hardly ever time sensitive. The other significant mod downtime is on the weekends, when our staff are presumably enjoying friends and families. I usually try to poke my head in on Friday and Saturday nights for a quick look, but I usually don't see a lot that needs work. International holidays do tend to be lightly covered, but frankly if you get into a bitchfest on Christmas morning, you should have no reasonable expectation of service from volunteer staff.

It's worth noting that we have an extensive 'bench', and those mods do tend to help out when help is needed. Scolopendra and Cogitation both took long hiatuses (as did I), but are back and actively modding. An occasional infusion of fresh blood is always a good idea, but it's not necessary from a coverage perspective.

---

tl;dr: We've got enough staff. If you want to nominate more because they're worthy, go for it. We're not looking for numbers just for the sake of numbers.

[Imperializt Russia]

Not Nightkill; not on this.

As it happens, I have discussed this with him privately, and there are some very good reasons why it's simply not practical.

Even aside from that, I'd be very bad actually doing mod work. The forum would be in flames.

Some of us like watching the world burn...

[Constaniana]

Is Nightkill taking all of it, or are the Mentors going to divide it up amongst themselves?

We compete for the money in a Hunger Games.

So it's like your childhood all over again?

[Euroslavia]

Must carry Will Smith's magical gene.


You might have misread. I'm not in favour of debating mentors. Debating is something you learn best from observing.

I didn't misread. I agreed with you. I just simply stated that people do need help debating (me included)

Hell, I know I could use help debating too. I've never been very good at it.

[Die Erworbenen Namen]

I didn't misread. I agreed with you. I just simply stated that people do need help debating (me included)

Hell, I know I could use help debating too. I've never been very good at it.

Hey, if I'm not the only one who needs help, that makes me feel better.

[The Dark Star Republic]

tl;dr: We've got enough staff. If you want to nominate more because they're worthy, go for it. We're not looking for numbers just for the sake of numbers.

Getting mod answers in the WA forum - which, I fully accept, is something only a tiny minority of NS players care about - is very difficult at the moment. I have an unresolved question from December which is yet to be answered, and I don't believe Unibot has received an answer on his long-standing question either; there are a couple of other examples, too. There is a lack of engagement and every time this is raised, Ardchoille pleads that "the [WA] mods are stretched a bit thin at the moment".

So - does having "enough staff" for the site as a whole necessarily pan out to having "enough staff" for the various subsections of what is a pretty diverse community?

[Mallorea and Riva]

tl;dr: We've got enough staff. If you want to nominate more because they're worthy, go for it. We're not looking for numbers just for the sake of numbers.

Getting mod answers in the WA forum - which, I fully accept, is something only a tiny minority of NS players care about - is very difficult at the moment. I have an unresolved question from December which is yet to be answered, and I don't believe Unibot has received an answer on his long-standing question either; there are a couple of other examples, too. There is a lack of engagement and every time this is raised, Ardchoille pleads that "the [WA] mods are stretched a bit thin at the moment".

So - does having "enough staff" for the site as a whole necessarily pan out to having "enough staff" for the various subsections of what is a pretty diverse community?

Personally I find the inefficiency of the Secretariat to be endearing. It also seems to be the case a number of times that those reports are simply... forgotten about... rather than the workload being too much. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's generally a low priority issue and as such probably gets put behind other things until forgotten. Generally speaking when a GHR rolls in to catch an illegal resolution they're on point. Any issues are probably all Ard's fault of course.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm a lot more pessimistic about this.

The reason certain posters in NSG are regarded as bad debaters is not because they don't know what they're doing, which is what the mentors are supposed to help out with in the roleplay forums. It's because they have either:
a) bad views which creates a large rift between them and the forums or
b) a determination to win that's so strong, they'll say anything, literally anything, if it means avoiding saying "sorry, I'm actually wrong".

I don't see how you can "mentor" people to fix this considering you can't really mentor someone out of their views, that has to be done in debate, and there's well and truly no getting through to the people in category b because they have to win.

I also cannot see how you could "mentor" someone without them thinking it's an attack on them because of their views, not the way they post.

So while I'm supportive of mentoring in the roleplay forums because I've seen the good work it's done, I'm completely opposed to it being introduced in NSG. The amount of words moderators have spent harping on things like being civil and being polite is enough to match Gone With the Wind, it's continually fallen on deaf ears.

Conclusion. NSG is NSG. Love it or leave it.

I would think mentors would focus on things like etiquette, reminding people to explain their reasoning, sourcing claims, etc. It shouldn't be about mentoring someone out of their views, but just trying to help them argue their views in a more constructive way. Mentors would have to make some distinction between their personal opinions when they participate in a debate and the advice they give in their official capacity -- sort of like mods do separating their rulings from their personal posts.

[Katganistan]

Right.

People, vote for me as your moderator! I will give security over peace!

This sort of public campaign is also likely counterproductive.

What I would suggest is that, if interested, and if genuinely convinced that you'd be good at the role, you ask a couple of people familiar with your posting style and record to quietly and unobtrusively send in a nomination on your behalf.

It's one thing to make a quick post along the lines of "if nominated, I'd consider it" if your name spontaneously comes up - no harm done there - it's quite another to start openly campaigning in public.

We'd prefer a Man in the Shack to a Zaphod Beeblebrox.

Kudos if you get the full reference.

I miss Douglas Adams. And that was probably the best way to choose a president ever.

[Katganistan]

The key is finding people who meet the following three criteria (for NSG mentors):

1.) The candidate would have to have been in NSG for long enough to have developed a reputation amonst the inhabitants thereof, and get the general gist of how things go in NSG.

2.) The candidate would need to be someone who preferably hasn't had too many run-ins with moderation.

3.) The candidate needs to be able to give advice that will help the player or players involved. Gruff people can get the job done (though being nice does tend to go farther), as long as they are respectful to others who need the help/advice, and are also proactive to see where they can further help.

***

As for the P2TM mentor staff, i'd say that you might have been slightly overwhelmed with the responsibility at first. You guys got to define how mentoring works in P2TM, and made it up as you went along. From all accounts, it sounds like you've developed a fine initial cadre, and the new P2TM mentors will benefit from the knowledge and experience gained, as well the people that you mentor.

I myself had the benefit of being among others who had defined how mentoring works in II when I first became a mentor, so I had more to fall back upon. Then my natural personality kicked in, and things went from there. I'd say that the ideal mentor is a mix of three things:

1.) Personality
2.) Experience
3.) Willing to learn

If you've got the right mix of these three ingredients, you can be a terrific mentor. That's why I think that even NSG can benefit from mentors, who can assist in keeping that forum under control, just as II, GE&T, and P2TM are.

I'm a lot more pessimistic about this.

The reason certain posters in NSG are regarded as bad debaters is not because they don't know what they're doing, which is what the mentors are supposed to help out with in the roleplay forums. It's because they have either:
a) bad views which creates a large rift between them and the forums or
b) a determination to win that's so strong, they'll say anything, literally anything, if it means avoiding saying "sorry, I'm actually wrong".

I don't see how you can "mentor" people to fix this considering you can't really mentor someone out of their views, that has to be done in debate, and there's well and truly no getting through to the people in category b because they have to win.

I also cannot see how you could "mentor" someone without them thinking it's an attack on them because of their views, not the way they post.

So while I'm supportive of mentoring in the roleplay forums because I've seen the good work it's done, I'm completely opposed to it being introduced in NSG. The amount of words moderators have spent harping on things like being civil and being polite is enough to match Gone With the Wind, it's continually fallen on deaf ears.

Conclusion. NSG is NSG. Love it or leave it.

In my opinion, NSG mentors would be an utter disaster. Telling someone how to talk to others? That won't go over well. At all.

[Bezombia]

I'm a lot more pessimistic about this.

The reason certain posters in NSG are regarded as bad debaters is not because they don't know what they're doing, which is what the mentors are supposed to help out with in the roleplay forums. It's because they have either:
a) bad views which creates a large rift between them and the forums or
b) a determination to win that's so strong, they'll say anything, literally anything, if it means avoiding saying "sorry, I'm actually wrong".

I don't see how you can "mentor" people to fix this considering you can't really mentor someone out of their views, that has to be done in debate, and there's well and truly no getting through to the people in category b because they have to win.

I also cannot see how you could "mentor" someone without them thinking it's an attack on them because of their views, not the way they post.

So while I'm supportive of mentoring in the roleplay forums because I've seen the good work it's done, I'm completely opposed to it being introduced in NSG. The amount of words moderators have spent harping on things like being civil and being polite is enough to match Gone With the Wind, it's continually fallen on deaf ears.

Conclusion. NSG is NSG. Love it or leave it.

In my opinion, NSG mentors would be an utter disaster. Telling someone how to talk to others? That won't go over well. At all.

*cue mentors using new posters as ammunition for their own political beliefs*

[Katganistan]

In my opinion, NSG mentors would be an utter disaster. Telling someone how to talk to others? That won't go over well. At all.

*cue mentors using new posters as ammunition for their own political beliefs*

Even leaving bias out of it -- truly, can you imagine some of our more... forceful posters taking well to being directed to calm down and speak more respectfully?