NationStates

Recently we seem to have accumulated a number of nations that are on the wrong side of site policy on "malicious" content. Our policy is kind of subtle, and moderators tend to give players the benefit of the doubt, so some nations have been sliding through when they really shouldn't have, until we've wound up with quite a few of them. We are about to correct this.

As per the FAQ, we don't permit content that is obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory, or spam. The "malicious" category includes material that a reasonable person would believe endorses or celebrates violence against real-life people.

It's fairly clear how this applies to forum posts, but can be ambiguous when it comes to nation pages--in particular, nations that refer to the real world. An example is the use of a swastika as a national flag. The swastika isn't specifically banned on NationStates, because we don't ban particular references or arrangements of pixels. But since it is widely seen to symbolize specific real-life events--in particular, the Holocaust--it is usually unacceptable, as an endorsement of violence against real-life people. (This is regardless of how it's intended: We don't try to peer into minds to judge intent, only how it appears.)

Similarly, there is no ban on mentioning Nazis, or Hitler, or espousing ideological beliefs. However, a nation made up as a cookie-cutter Nazi Germany in its name, region, and custom fields (e.g. motto, currency), with no contrary context or redeeming content, is hard to interpret as anything other than an endorsement of that real-life nation's most well-known acts. So this is unacceptable, too. This is the kind of content that has been getting through lately, and shouldn't have.

I'm using Nazi examples because that's what we've seen recently, but it applies equally to any theme or organization that's primarily known for violence for against real-life people. And conversely, it's perfectly fine for a nation to reference Nazis, if that's done in a way that isn't likely to make reasonable people think it's endorsing the Holocaust.

A common question is why we don't ban nations that mimic the Soviet Union, or the USA, or some other real-life nation/entity with a violent history. Certainly, you can total up the body count of various real-world countries and arrive at awful totals: the Soviet Union under Stalin, for example. The question we ask is whether a mini-Soviet Union nation appears to celebrate violence against RL people. And the answer is probably no: assuming no specific references to the contrary, most people wouldn't make that association, because the Soviet Union is widely known for much more than butchery.

We judge nation pages in isolation, since the typical viewer is not going to hunt down forum posts or regional activity for clarifying context. So while parody nations are fine, that needs to be reasonably obvious from the nation page alone.

In summary, there's only a problem if we think a reasonable person looking at a nation page will think it's endorsing violence against real-life people. We are not crazy-strict about this. We are fairly sensitive to satire and humor. But when a nation appears to be simply rocking out to how cool it was for real-life country X to kill a bunch of people, we will delete that nation.

Update May 16, 2021: A minor change to the above means we now require nation/region names to avoid violating this rule no matter what their flag or custom fields might be. That is, the name alone must not give the impression of celebrating or endorsing real-life violence. Previously, we would sometimes consider problematic names to be acceptable if they were accompanied by flags and/or custom fields that established a benign context, but this is no longer the case.

I know that this topic has been raised before, but noone's ever given an answer that is more meat than bone, so I'm going to ask it agin.

How do you know that a 'reasonable person' would associate a nazi nation with a swastika on a roleplay game as physicly endorsing violence against real people?

I'm blind, british, with brown eyes and hair. I would have been gassed rather quickly in the holocaust. However, I'm content to allow the passed to remain in its propper place. Don't you think it's time for the rest of the world to do the same?

Vakolic wrote:How do you know that a 'reasonable person' would associate a nazi nation with a swastika on a roleplay game as physicly endorsing violence against real people?

It's a subjective judgment, of course: Some people will interpret a symbol one way and others another. Also, some people will mean it one way, and others another. We've had plenty of examples from both camps.

Ultimately, it's our interpretation of a "reasonable person." It won't be true for everyone.

(Edit:) Also, I guess we're influenced by the fact that if "I was only role-playing!" were a defense, we wouldn't be able to prohibit anything. We don't mind role-playing, but we aren't willing to allow genuinely malicious people to celebrate real-life violence using that as an excuse. So we will take a nation page seriously if there's nothing to suggest the contrary.

I'm not really pleased with what's been done to LCG, the founder of the GGR.

I fully support this policy. I am glad to see the Administration/Moderation team clarifying some matters and dealing with nations/regions that are violating this policy.

^Seconded.
LCG adspammed regions' RMBs like there was no tomorrow. It's good to see a stepping up of this policy.

I too am in agreement with this.

I have long since been concerned with the amount of Pro-Nazi AdSpam and nations within NationStates, but was unsure of who I could approach regarding it.

This clarification of the policy on malicious content is welcome, and I think that many people who are part of the NS community will agree with it.

About bloody time.

I hope we can be equally clear that trolling in reverse of this, attempting to deliberately get players deleted, spamming, baiting, and all those other things by groups traditionally in opposition to folks who've had a longstanding RP/IC/GP angle will be looked on rather dimly. Nor is this an all-out 'nazi hunt'.

There's plenty of unsavory that we unfortunately run into that has nothing to do with nazis. If you see a problem, kindly report it via the proper channels, and otherwise leave folks alone.

This is not an invitation for others to create situations, or look for ways to get others deleted. And I'd encourage you all not to slip into trolling or gloating in this thread, or any others. Thanks.

Bundabunda wrote:^Seconded.
LCG adspammed regions' RMBs like there was no tomorrow. It's good to see a stepping up of this policy.

LCG did not spam other regions. She sent recruitment messages in regions where it's allowed, like the pacifics which is not against the rules. Secondly many nations impersonated LCG by having the same flag and a similar name and they spammed regions RMB.

Nazi Germany was known for different things, too.

Such as military success, technological improvements, great discoveries, massive amounts of literature, fiction and non-fiction, based on them, promotion of animal rights, advances in film and medicine.

The moderators need to crack down on USSR-based nations, as the Soviets were NO better than Nazis. How can you deny that? The Soviets (no offense to anyone by following statements) experimented with prisoners and used Concentration camp-like "Gulags" to force their will on their people. The Nazis gassed their enemies, and the Soviets left them to die by nailing them to trees in Siberia. The Soviets, in the Battle of Stalingrad, waited with machine guns to shoot anyone who returned as "traitors".

Stalin killed millions. If you allow Soviet-like regions to exist, then you should allow National Socialists to exist as well.

And, as long as no threats are made, people should be able to be a racist as they want to. I've seen plenty of Confederate States nations. Most people would consider them "racist" too.

I think this is simply PERSECUTING the Nazis, as awkward and backwards that may sound.



The Moderators seem very oriented with Left-wing agendas, and seem to only crack down on Right-wing movements as "offensive" and "racist". I mean, seriously. I know a friend who was banned for saying "I think abortion should be outlawed." The Moderators are extremely partisan, corrupt, and, yes I going to say it, prejudiced.

I feel terribly let down by how low the Mods are, and how the abuse their power. Not here, but everywhere! Some moderators will ban you just for disagreeing with them politically. So, are we all supposed to be Inoffensive democracies? NO!
That defeats the purpose of the game. Leave Nazis and communists alone, or mess with both radical beliefs that DO promote violence.

I am personally not a National Socialist, I am just plain center-right republican.

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:I hope we can be equally clear that trolling in reverse of this, attempting to deliberately get players deleted, spamming, baiting, and all those other things by groups traditionally in opposition to folks who've had a longstanding RP/IC/GP angle will be looked on rather dimly. Nor is this an all-out 'nazi hunt'.

Then why are we banning nazi nations? Why not other racist nations? If you are going to do this, then be bipartisan about it.

Sometimes I think this game is either run by the communists or the mods are very biased (no one targeted specifically.)

how can you just assume that soviet and communistic ideologies and logos arent totalitarian and that people just dont think they did anything "all that bad"

youre ruining the fair play here.

we have been targeted SPECIFICALLY with this.

i dont see mottos saying "holocaust was cool" or "go holocaust!" on anyones mottos nor glorifying them whatsoever.

were focusing on ROLEPLAY.

so how can you find this acceptable in fair play.

you said no swastikas. so we removed them
you said no pictures of hitler, so we removed them.
you said no talking on forums or RMB's on ideology and beliefs. so we didnt.
now youre pretty much glorifying communism and practically crippling our roleplay environment.

i guess ethnic starving of over 100 million people and gulags arent all that bad.....really

Have you read my post? Did you perhaps see where I pointed out no one group is being 'targeted'? Or perhaps where I stated quite clearly that if you see a problem, report it and we'll take a look at it? No?

Go read again and stop spamming up the thread.

National Sozialistische wrote:how can you just assume that soviet and communistic ideologies and logos arent totalitarian and that people just dont think they did anything "all that bad"

youre ruining the fair play here.

we have been targeted SPECIFICALLY with this.

i dont see mottos saying "holocaust was cool" or "go holocaust!" on anyones mottos nor glorifying them whatsoever.

were focusing on ROLEPLAY.

so how can you find this acceptable in fair play.

you said no swastikas. so we removed them
you said no pictures of hitler, so we removed them.
you said no talking on forums or RMB's on ideology and beliefs. so we didnt.
now youre pretty much glorifying communism and practically crippling our roleplay environment.

i guess ethnic starving of over 100 million people and gulags arent all that bad.....really

Exactly. I'm not justifying the Holocaust, but you ARE JUSTIFYING THE KILLING OF MILLIONS.

The Soviets killed more people, and so did the Chinese!

that last part was sarcasm, and yes i have read the memo.

This is not the correct forum to debate body counts. To quote [violet]:

[violet] wrote:Certainly, you can total up the body count of various real-world countries and arrive at awful totals: the Soviet Union under Stalin, for example. The question we ask is whether a mini-Soviet Union nation appears to celebrate violence against RL people. And the answer is probably no: assuming no specific references to the contrary, most people wouldn't make that association, because the Soviet Union is widely known for much more than butchery.

If your nation is intended for roleplay, then it is incumbent upon you to choose a national name and custom fields that avoid being mistaken for a celebration of real violence.

Another Moderator has already locked this thread. I see fit to maintain the lock.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

As I explained to another player on IRC, if you folks can discuss this with some civility and maturity, there's no problem discussing. But please. Now you've had a chance to sit for a bit, and hopefully read, let's keep it topical, constructive, and not whine on about how you think you're the 'only ones' being looked at. Thanks.

ok how about the fact that our founder was DEAT then sent to the rejected realms. opening up our previous no executive delegacy and now the communists are destroying our region.

how that being not targeted?

could you PLEASE just lock the region and restore our default non exeutive delegacy till our founder returns. so we may KEEP our region in tact?

edit: also if you read our RMB right now there all sorts of trolling and baiting and hate speech being done by these invaders.

Great World wrote:The moderators need to crack down on USSR-based nations, as the Soviets were NO better than Nazis. How can you deny that?

This is the kind of thing that can be usefully debated, but we don't want to make policy based on personal judgments about which historical nations are the worst. We're not saying 1940s Germany is the worst; we're saying that when you create a nation that's a simple carbon copy of Nazi Germany, people tend to interpret that as an endorsement of a very particular atrocity. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but that's the perception. And we care about the perception.

It is certainly possible to create Soviet nations, or any other kind of nation, that appears to endorse specific acts of violence, too, and that's not acceptable for the same reason.

I don't mind this. I am new to the community and would be rather appaled if someone was going to celebrate the civil war in America or vietnam or 9/11. I mention these because they are touchy.

I'll have to see how this is enforced before deciding whether or not I like it. But it seems reasonable.

So after my initial glee and bloodlust, I believe National Sozialistische has a point.

The current invasion of The Greater German Reich was caused by mod error. It appears the founder Leather-clad Germany was initially deleted, but then quickly reinstated...in Lazarus, like it had CTE and refounded.

This mod action had the direct consequence of making the delegate position in The Greater German Reich to go from non-exec to exec, enabling the raid to occur.

[violet] wrote:We're not saying 1940s Germany is the worst; we're saying that when you create a nation that's a simple carbon copy of Nazi Germany, people tend to interpret that as an endorsement of a very particular atrocity. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but that's the perception. And we care about the perception.

It is certainly possible to create Soviet nations, or any other kind of nation, that appears to endorse specific acts of violence, too, and that's not acceptable for the same reason.

Let me see if I understand this policy.

A person creates a nation based on the Ukrainian SSR and seemingly glorifies the Holodomor.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Stalin that seems to glorify the Katyn Forest massacre.

A person creates a nation based on the Black Panthers that condones cop killing.

A person creates a nation based on the Khmer Rouge that glorifies the Killing Fields.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Truman that lauds the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

A person creates a nation dedicated to Sherman that lauds the March to the Sea.

A person creates a nation dedicated to the Ku Klux Klan that praises the bombing of black churches.

Would all of these players, for example, be penalized by the moderation staff?

this^