I'm confused

[Maurepas]

If you came away with this with the "Melkor thinks Parth's comments were 'a-ok'," that's an error of understanding more than anything else.

I would just like to point out that this particular kind of error has occurred more than once towards your posts....

[Germova]

Recently (today, in fact) some posters complained that one individual had referred to transvestites as a monstrosity and trash. This poster received no punishment, or warning, or any response from moderation. instead, it was ruled that "As much as [a poster]'s opinions are VERY unpopular, he is still allowed to express them. This is just one of the many ways one receives "freedom of expression" is our beloved Father Knows Best State." from here.

Now, in a few posts, a poster states "I think christians are filth" and [url=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14645&start=25#p527351]"people in the military are such trash"
[/url] . This poster was given a ban.

Now, from where I sit, the difference between "transexuals are monstrosities" and "christians are filth" is...well...minimal. Yet on one hand we are informed that unpopular opinions are still protected, and on the other a poster is given a ban for "trolling" for posting material that is...well....pretty much the same.

Now, perhaps the rules are above me, perhaps they're just too complicated, but when a moderator posts in a moderation thread that posters opinion, despite being VERY unpopular (emphasis added) were still protected, silly me, but I would have read that to mean ANY posters unpopular opinions, about ANY group, are protected.

is there perhaps something in the rules of this forum that spells out the difference between "expressing an unpopular but protected opinion" and "trolling"? Is it that different posters who are given more protection, or are certain groups more protected? OK to insult transexuals, but not christians and the military? Because, again, if someone says that unpopular opinions are protected...I'd think that would apply to ALL opinions. Because it seems to me that the difference between "expressing an unpopular opinion" (IE "transexuals are trash") and "trolling" (IE "christians are filth") depends pretty much on...well...whatever moderator happens to read it first. And I can't hardly believe that this forum would be governed in such an arbitrary and capricious manner, so perhaps the difference can be spelled out for me?

Because, frankly, I may or may not have many opinions about a LOT of various groups and ethnicities, which may or may not be considered HIGHLY controversial, and I just want to make sure that I insult the "right" kind of people.

You know, so that it'd be protected unpopular opinions, and not trolling.

well to that part i got banned all because of a debate the mod thought he has all the rights to choose what is or what is not

how ever as an american when i see or hear something i will bring my voice to question their supposed reason;s on why anyone would want to harm them selves

i see they are not fit for at all and have medical problems

[Melkor Unchained]

If you came away with this with the "Melkor thinks Parth's comments were 'a-ok'," that's an error of understanding more than anything else.

I would just like to point out that this particular kind of error has occurred more than once towards your posts....

Possibly because many are inclined to assume the Worst Possible Outlook^TM of my commentary.

I warned DI a few days ago, which I suspect may have had something to do with said Worst Possible Outlook and the subsequent ignoring of my posts which seems to have occurred here.

[Sitspot]

I think that moderating this must be a complete nightmare and I can understand that feeling you've been accused wrongly must hurt. I think that a large part of the problem was actually caused not by the mods or the trolls, but by the rest of us who stood by and did nothing.
If you look at a few other threads (like the Christians), trolling took place and was dealt with in a super efficient manner a few posts later before any real damage was done. The problem with this thread was that the sly remarks and innuendo were allowed to go on page after page. And that was because no-one cared enough to take it to the mods as soon as it started, it only eventually came up as an afterthought.
If any other group had been subject to that sort of trash talk, someone would have had it in moderation after the first post, instead when DI eventually read it , it went on for page after hurtful page with no-one taking a real stand against it.
That must have made for a great deal of hurt and a feeling of betrayal.
As I said not the mods fault, but the rest of us for not caring enough about this one small group to report it.
I still find it very hard to see DI as an 'attention whore' and I do kinda wonder about the slap on the wrist warning as opposed to a ban. But then I don't have to do your job. I hope there can perhaps be some more productive private chatting when hurt feelings on both sides have been allowed to heal a little.

[Reploid Productions]

Bullshit, plain and simple. Accusatory, confrontational, and not one iota of 'respect' shown to any of the mods in any of your postings here. Seriously, this has all gotten to the point of stupid. You want to leave? There's the door.

A gentle reminder.

Okay people, I've walked away from the computer, discovered that watching the Station fire burning merrily away in the distance is surprisingly therapeutic, and am back in a much less "DEAT 'em all, let Max sort 'em out" frame of mind.

That said, this thing has been bickering back and forth and generally accomplishing nothing save for making people upset all over the place, and I don't predict this changing tonight. So to spare everyone the ongoing drama and other such unpleasantness, I'm going to lock this thread until tomorrow* so that we can all take a nice walk away from the forums, calm down, and get our collective heads on straight before anybody does something they'll regret later. This applies to the mods as well as the non-mods.

Until tomorrow,

~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku
_{*after I get back from class tomorrow}

[Kryozerkia]

I admit I missed the context (my error) and I went back to correct. I'm sorry for missing the point of that post, but it happens.

[Gift-of-god]

I am also somewhat confused over the apparent inconsistency of moderator action.

Hiddenrun was banned for three days because he made one impolite (yet on topic) comment.

Parthenon, on the other hand, derailed an entire thread with a discussion on his bigotry towards the transgendered, and received a warning.

In both cases, the transgressor used inflammatory language against a group of people. However, Parthenon compounded the problem by making it impossible to discuss the OP topic. Yet Parthenon received a far lighter punishment.

I think that people like Hiddenrun and Parthenon should be allowed to express unpopular ideas. Just as Hiddenrun expressed his disgust of cyclists in the cycling thread, Parthenon should be allowed to express his disgust at transgendered and transsexual individuals in an appropriate thread. Not one about cosmology.

When one considers the leniency of the punishment, I can understand why some think it seems like the moderators are allowing threadjacking if its about marginalising the transgendered.

[UNIverseVERSE]

The issue as I see it.

Parthenon makes extremely objectionable remarks in thread.

Jordaxia makes an extreme response. This was rapidly dealt with, as it should have been -- it easily crossed the line of what the rules permit.

However, TCT posts, and helpfully flags up all of Parthenon's remarks. Even a cursory glance through those links would show lines like "It's a monstrosity", "[he] crossed into 'it' territory the moment it put on lipstick", "shit is disgusting", etc. -- clear trolling, and would have been instantly targeted as such if on political or religious grounds.

Despite this, Melkor states that "It's under control, and I didn't see anything derogatory" (paraphrased).

Despite this, Melkor states that "It's under control, tranny isn't derogatory in itself, and the rest should be reviewed" (paraphrased).

Reppy then rules "Parthenon is allowed to express an opinion, even an extreme one." She would have been shown, and had plenty of time to read, the links TCT gave, but still rules that it's merely an extreme opinion.

The thread goes back and forth for a bit longer, until Kyrozerkia locks it and hands down this

This is Moderation, not a discussion forum.

Also, the thread has been locked and thoroughly reviewed. As much as Parthenon's opinions are VERY unpopular, he is still allowed to express them. This is just one of the many ways one receives "freedom of expression" is our beloved Father Knows Best State.

Again, we note, Parthenon's remarks, which had been helpfully signposted, are (even on 'thorough review' of the thread) "freedom of expression", not trolling or the like.

A position which, to my mind, is untenable, unless one considers bigotry against trans people not as objectionable as bigotry against other groups. People have been banned for saying similar or weaker things about Americans as a group, about Christians as a group, Muslims as a group, atheists as a group, Democrats/Republicans/Communists/Capitalists/Anarchists/Left-handers/Classical-music-listeners, and so on. But when it's trans people, its okay. Jordaxia appears to have been spot on.

BUT HEY, IT'S A GODSDAMN TRANNY, SO IT'S FAIR PLAY.

Yes, we do finally get a belated warning for Parthenon, here. Note it's after "I found nothing that needed to be directly addressed", and chronologically only happens once DI and others start protesting very damn loudly.

I am, quite frankly, ashamed of the mod team here. I've defended them on lots of occasions -- they do a very hard, very thankless job, and do it generally well. But this time has been an absolute catastrophe, both from an 'enforcing the rules consistently and well' point of view, and from a 'looking like we care about trolling of certain groups' point of view. Multiple moderators, in multiple reviews, ruled Parthenon's horrendous trolling legitimate as freedom of expression, until the opposition got loud enough to force some action.

Jordaxia seems to have been right, and her call for a serious look at what seems to have been a major systemic failure needs to be listened to.

---

My thoughts. The fundamental question, I suppose, is this: Why does it take multiple thorough reviews to catch posts that were obviously over the line, and helpfully pointed out?

Edit: I struck out one paragraph, and introduced the paragraph beneath it, on reading Melkor's response here.

[GetBert]

My problem is not that Parthenon expresses extreme views, but that as soon as he is challenged on them he does not debate. I am not saying all people with right-wing opinions are trolls, plenty manage to put together good arguments and back up their opinions, it just seems to me that Parthenon's idea of backing up his opinions is to post a link to a youtube video telling them to stfu. How is that not trolling?

[The Cat-Tribe]

I admit I missed the context (my error) and I went back to correct. I'm sorry for missing the point of that post, but it happens.

Thank you for this simple admission of error.

[Melkor Unchained]

Despite this, Melkor states that "It's under control, and I didn't see anything derogatory" (paraphrased).

I didn't say that I didn't see anything derogatory, just that I didn't consider 'tranny' by itself to be such. If I thought nothing was actionable, I wouldn't have pointed Rep towards TCT's links. There had already been some talk of locking the thread and trawling through it, hence these posts about ten minutes later. Since (as I already pointed out), Jordaxia's post was reported first, it was acted upon first and was obviously actionable, even if it Parthenon brought it on himself.

The impression I'm getting from all this is that people are mad that Parthenon either didn't get warned first, or didn't get warned fast enough. You could make the case that he deserved a forumban since it was a threadjack on top of everything else, but I'm disinclined to issue a ban ex post facto and I would imagine the other mods are as well.

[The Cat-Tribe]

I wish to start by repeating my words from another thread:

Let me preface this by saying, I know Mods are not just human beings, but unpaid volunteers. I don’t know why they so kindly and selflessly do what they do in the first place and they deserve great credit. Although I sometimes question Mod rulings, I do so because I have come to expect a high degree of fairness and professionalism from our Mods. I honestly respect the Mods collectively and individually (yes, every one).

In the kerfluffle yesterday, I applaud the Mods for eventually taking action on the complaint about abusive language against transsexuals. Still I wish things had gone better. Although Parthenon could have been treated more harshly, my remaining complaint is not that the Mods “too to long to act,” but the at least appearance that they didn’t want to act at all. Several Mods looked at the complaint about Parthenon and concluded he had done nothing wrong before it was ultimately decided to warn him. Perhaps more importantly, in response to criticism about all of this it seems the Mods aren’t being honest (with us, themselves, or both) about what happened.

[UNIverseVERSE]

I didn't say that I didn't see anything derogatory, just that I didn't consider 'tranny' by itself to be such.

A valid point, and accepted. My mistake there.

If I thought nothing was actionable, I wouldn't have pointed Rep towards TCT's links. There had already been some talk of locking the thread and trawling through it, hence these posts about ten minutes later. Since (as I already pointed out, Jordaxia's post was acted upon first because it was reported first, and was still actionable even if Parthenon brought it on himself.

The impression I'm getting from all this is that people are mad that Parthenon either didn't get warned first, or didn't get warned fast enough. You could make the case that he deserved a forumban since it was a threadjack on top of everything else, but I'm disinclined to issue a ban ex post facto and I would imagine the other mods are as well.

My issue, really, is that it took three mods (although I can understand if you were just disappearing at the time), two 'thorough reviews', and a lot of flak from other posters to get any warning at all for what seems it should have been an open-and-shut case of trolling, with all the relevant posts helpfully pointed out. I can definitely see why posters might come out of that believing that these sorts of attacks are legit if they're made against trans people.

[Dyakovo]

Despite this, Melkor states that "It's under control, and I didn't see anything derogatory" (paraphrased).

I didn't say that I didn't see anything derogatory, just that I didn't consider 'tranny' by itself to be such. If I thought nothing was actionable, I wouldn't have pointed Rep towards TCT's links. There had already been some talk of locking the thread and trawling through it, hence these posts about ten minutes later. Since (as I already pointed out), Jordaxia's post was reported first, it was acted upon first and was obviously actionable, even if it Parthenon brought it on himself.

The impression I'm getting from all this is that people are mad that Parthenon either didn't get warned first, or didn't get warned fast enough. You could make the case that he deserved a forumban since it was a threadjack on top of everything else, but I'm disinclined to issue a ban ex post facto and I would imagine the other mods are as well.

Actually Melkor, I think the complaint most of us have is covered by this:

However, TCT posts, and helpfully flags up all of Parthenon's remarks. Even a cursory glance through those links would show lines like "It's a monstrosity", "[he] crossed into 'it' territory the moment it put on lipstick", "shit is disgusting", etc. -- clear trolling, and would have been instantly targeted as such if on political or religious grounds.

This is Moderation, not a discussion forum.

Also, the thread has been locked and thoroughly reviewed. As much as Parthenon's opinions are VERY unpopular, he is still allowed to express them. This is just one of the many ways one receives "freedom of expression" is our beloved Father Knows Best State.

Again, we note, Parthenon's remarks, which had been helpfully signposted, are (even on 'thorough review' of the thread) "freedom of expression", not trolling or the like.

A position which, to my mind, is untenable, unless one considers bigotry against trans people not as objectionable as bigotry against other groups. People have been banned for saying similar or weaker things about Americans as a group, about Christians as a group, Muslims as a group, atheists as a group, Democrats/Republicans/Communists/Capitalists/Anarchists/Left-handers/Classical-music-listeners, and so on. But when it's trans people, its okay. Jordaxia appears to have been spot on.

BUT HEY, IT'S A GODSDAMN TRANNY, SO IT'S FAIR PLAY.

Yes, we do finally get a belated warning for Parthenon, here. Note it's after "I found nothing that needed to be directly addressed", and chronologically only happens once DI and others start protesting very damn loudly.

I am, quite frankly, ashamed of the mod team here. I've defended them on lots of occasions -- they do a very hard, very thankless job, and do it generally well. But this time has been an absolute catastrophe, both from an 'enforcing the rules consistently and well' point of view, and from a 'looking like we care about trolling of certain groups' point of view. Multiple moderators, in multiple reviews, ruled Parthenon's horrendous trolling legitimate as freedom of expression, until the opposition got loud enough to force some action.

I for one greatly appreciate all the effort you guys put in as volunteers, it, for me anyways, was just a bit of a shock to see pretty much everyone drop the ball on this one.

[Melkor Unchained]

Several Mods looked at the complaint about Parthenon and concluded he had done nothing wrong before it was ultimately decided to warn him. Perhaps more importantly, in response to criticism about all of this it seems the Mods aren’t being honest (with us, themselves, or both) about what happened.

Rep and I are not "several" people, and the both of us had things that had to be attended to (I had to go to work, she had to run an errand) before we could properly handle the entire situation. I assumed she had more time to deal with it than she actually did, but we ended up leaving our computers about 5 minutes apart and were accordingly unable to handle the complaints in their entirety. I'm not sure what went on when Kryo came about, be she seems to have admitted some manner of mistake, and I'll take her word on that.

What I resent more than anything else is the intonation that I thought everything was cool, when in reality I had to go to work and pointed Rep towards your links. It seems to me that the folks complaining about this post are potentially only reading the quote box, my first word, and nothing else. Saying that I don't find "tranny" by itself to be an actionable term does not mean that I had gone over every single link with a fine-tooth comb and found "nothing actionable," hence my explicit mention of passing the links off to Rep, who I assumed would be on hand to make a more in-depth judgment than I had.

[Dyakovo]

I think TCT was referring to you, Reppy and Kryo looking at the thread...

[The Cat-Tribe]

Despite this, Melkor states that "It's under control, and I didn't see anything derogatory" (paraphrased).

I didn't say that I didn't see anything derogatory, just that I didn't consider 'tranny' by itself to be such. If I thought nothing was actionable, I wouldn't have pointed Rep towards TCT's links. There had already been some talk of locking the thread and trawling through it, hence these posts about ten minutes later. Since (as I already pointed out), Jordaxia's post was reported first, it was acted upon first and was obviously actionable, even if it Parthenon brought it on himself.

The impression I'm getting from all this is that people are mad that Parthenon either didn't get warned first, or didn't get warned fast enough. You could make the case that he deserved a forumban since it was a threadjack on top of everything else, but I'm disinclined to issue a ban ex post facto and I would imagine the other mods are as well.

You are correct that the paraphrase of your post was inaccurate.

I'll get into my take on the rest of this in some detail in a moment, but let me squarely address where I think you should take some responsibility for at least not handling things well.

I had posted, with links, Parthenon's trolling threadjack. I had complained that he was "calling transsexuals not just "tranny" and "it" but "monstrosit[ies]", "disgusting," and "trash.""

Your response was to echo another poster's statement that "trannie/tranny is [not] at all derogatory, no different then shortening homosexual to homo and heterosexual to hetero" and taken no action. You did say you would refer my links to Reppy.

It is more than a little odd for a Mod to respond to a post saying "Poster A said not only 'V' and 'W' but also "X, Y, Z" with the equivalent of "there is nothing wrong with V." Especially when X, Y, & Z seem clearly actionable.

Regardless of what you meant (and I believe you fully about that), it was reasonable for posters to conclude that you found nothing offensive or actionable in Parthenon's posts, but would let Reppy review the matter further.

[Melkor Unchained]

I think TCT was referring to you, Reppy and Kryo looking at the thread...

Kryo has apologized for not familiarizing herself with the context of the thread, and since she came along later, had more catching up to do than Rep and I. I excluded her because she has apologized for her mistake and it seems to be accepted. However, as complaints are still ongoing, I felt the need to defend Rep and myself on the grounds that we did nothing wrong.

Kryo, for her part, may have simply come into the thread to back up Rep's judgment, and may not have been all the way through Parth's thread here or read all of TCT's links.

[Neesika]

My two cents...I'm glad this conversation is happening. I think it's necessary to get everyone's point of view out there, and hopefully some of the bile will drain.

[The Cat-Tribe]

What I resent more than anything else is the intonation that I thought everything was cool, when in reality I had to go to work and pointed Rep towards your links. It seems to me that the folks complaining about this post are potentially only reading the quote box, my first word, and nothing else. Saying that I don't find "tranny" by itself to be an actionable term does not mean that I had gone over every single link with a fine-tooth comb and found "nothing actionable," hence my explicit mention of passing the links off to Rep, who I assumed would be on hand to make a more in-depth judgment than I had.

We're talking across each other. I addressed your specific post just now.

[Melkor Unchained]

TCT, I understand what you're getting at and I never contested the presence of actionable material in those links, but there are a few posts in there that weren't horribly inflammatory (like this; also saying "I have a problem with transvestites" isn't exactly actionable); I had the time to state a quick opinion on the use of the term but not the time to sit down and hand out warnings for the links that were bad: I was out the door literally 10 seconds after that post was written. I didn't have the time to get into the more inflammatory terminology; time I had thought Rep had. I wanted to make it clear both to Rep and to the forum population at large that not all of it was actionable, excepting possibly on the grounds of threadjacking (but, lets face it, if we warned/banned for every threadjacking, we'd all have been out the door a long time ago).

[The Cat-Tribe]

TCT, I understand what you're getting at and I never contested the presence of actionable material in those links, but there are a few posts in there that weren't horribly inflammatory (like this; also saying "I have a problem with transvestites isn't exactly actionable); I had the time to state a quick opinion on the use of the term but not the time to sit down and hand out warnings for it: I was out the door literally 10 seconds after that post was written. I didn't have the time to get into the more inflammatory terminology; time I had thought Rep had.

That is fine. Perhaps if you had no time to review the complaint, you should have merely said so. Instead of implying (albeit unintentionally), that you found the material linked unobjectionable.

I'm not expecting perfection. Honestly, I see your role in this as a very minor error. But you've been jumping down people's necks that you and the Mod Team committed no mistakes. I beg to differ.

I'll address the bigger picture in a moment.

[Melkor Unchained]

I'm not expecting perfection. Honestly, I see your role in this as a very minor error. But you've been jumping down people's necks that you and the Mod Team committed no mistakes. I beg to differ.

Kryo seems to have apologized for one; my case is simply that Rep and I didn't do anything wrong.

[The Romulan Republic]

Since much of this thread seems to be anger directed towards the mod staff for not reacting more strongly towards this whole ugly affair, I want to reiterate my own concerns as strongly as possible.

While it is possible that the mods failed to react (for whatever reason) as strongly as they have in the past to similar attacks on other groups, it would be far more damaging if the response to this incident was to swing too far the other way and start censoring anything that might offend someone or cause an unpleasant incident. I would like to remind all involved that this whole forum's existence depends in large part on the ability to discuss controversial ideas freely, and that their would be rather little point in it existing if this were not the case.

Perhaps I seem somewhat melodramatic, and hopefully I'm worried over nothing. But since most of the criticism in this thread seems to be directed towards the mods for not being good enough censors, I just want to say that I would rather have lax censors than overly zealous ones. By all means though, the rules should be enforced evenly and consistently at all times.

I'll refrain from commenting on the specifics of this whole thing, as I did not participate in the thread that started it, and don't really wish to be dragged into debating the details of who said what and who didn't say what.

[RoI2]

I'm not expecting perfection. Honestly, I see your role in this as a very minor error. But you've been jumping down people's necks that you and the Mod Team committed no mistakes. I beg to differ.

Kryo seems to have apologized for one; my case is simply that Rep and I didn't do anything wrong.

Fixed.